Perry Mason – He is a loose Gannon

Full transcript of Perry Mason – He is a loose Gannon.

0:00KT: Hello. We are starting off with Anguessme and Oti. Mhmm. I'm going to guess who you think was the funniest character in Perry Mason Mhmm. In three, two,

0:14Oti: one. Pete Strickland.

0:17KT: I thought you were going to, like, not be real and because he's not funny at all. So I thought you were just going to be a dick about it.

0:17Oti: He's funny to me.

0:17KT: Well, let's continue the dicks and get on with the show. Howdy, friends and lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host, KT. And Oti. And pay your tithes, but ignore your wives. Because this week, court is in session with HBO's Perry Mason. Woo hoo. Woo hoo hoo in

1:11KT: deed. It feels good to be covering a show in relative real time, Oti. Mhmm. Let's just It's been a while. It's been a whole while. Let's start off with the stats interrupting Oti, which is what we do around here. It was released in June 2020. Mhmm. The year that would never end. We have creators of Way of Ron Fitzgerald and Rolin Jones. Executive producer, Robert Downey Jr, or Would You Believe Oti? Okay. He was actually slated to star as Perry Mason, but was scheduling conflicts.

1:49KT: He didn't, but he remained an executive producer of the show.

1:49Oti: No. I'm glad Matthew Rhys was on it.

1:49KT: Okay. Settle down. You know, we don't have to be at DMX a 100 at the start of the episode, my love. These are based on novels from Erle Stanley Gardner, and this show seemed to want to follow more of the the darker sort of intrinsic nature that the novels have as opposed to, the show that came out, quite a decade Network of HBO. HBO is a darling in the For Your Reference household. Cross

2:30KT: off your bingo cards. We've done The Wire. We've done Deadwood. Surely going to do Sopranos and Oz anytime soon?

2:37Oti: Oz sooner rather than later.

2:39KT: Sooner rather than later. Let's just quickly rattle off the top cast of this show. We have Matthew Rhys, Juliet Rylance, Chris Chalk, and John Lithgow. Lithgow or Lithgow?

2:54Oti: Lithgow.

2:55KT: I think it's Lithgow if you're feeling nasty. Mhmm. So there we go. Those are the stats. Let's dive into first impressions, Oti. I guess, you know, give us a peppering if you've ever heard of Perry Mason before. And I guess generally how you felt over the series. It's also an opportunity to say spoiler, spoiler, spoiler. So if your holes are not ready for us to spoil you, then perhaps peruse our catalog.

3:25Oti: Mhmm.

3:26KT: But back to Oti's back catalog, how did you feel about the series?

3:31Oti: I do not know what to expect going into Perry Mason. I've never heard of a Perry Mason. So

3:31KT: So not even the Perry Mason?

3:31Oti: Not even the Perry Mason. Our Perry Mason. And I just thought it'll be one of those old shows, and I didn't really know what to go with on the first episode, the pilot. It it it got it got interesting as it went on.

3:56KT: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

3:57Oti: I didn't know Tatiana Maslany would be in this, and I don't think she was in the first episode, if I remember correctly. I'm not sure. But when she showed up on the screen, wow. I was sold.

4:09KT: I think you had to do a double take because she's blonde in the show.

4:14Oti: I did not need a double take. I've seen her in all sort of hairstyles.

4:18KT: Oh, see. Because I haven't watched Orphan Black. So with her alter, she has different visual. Yep. Oh, okay. Alright. Alright. Alright. Well, this is not the Tatiana Stan podcast Oti. That is the Oti after hours. Mhmm. But, yeah, she she's not in all episodes, but definitely she gravitated to your attention. Is there anything else you wanna say about the series, or is it just a Tatiana stan?

4:44Oti: It's a Tatiana stan, and it's a good show. It's a good, watchable show.

4:44KT: Great fucking show. Come on now.

4:44Oti: I wouldn't say great. It's a good show.

4:44KT: Oh.

4:44Oti: Now you need to calm down a bit.

4:44KT: How fucking dare you, Oti?

4:59KT: How fucking dare you? This show the the way that we came across this show because I don't think it was even on your radar for us to watch. Right? This was something I introduced into the For Your Reference bed chambers. And the way I came across it was Aisha Tyler, my non best friend, but my best friend in my head, she had like a sponsored post about Perry Mason. Oh. So, you know, say what you will about influencers and sponsored posts, but they're very effective on KT if it's through way of Aisha Tyler. Yeah.

5:34KT: Because she she mentioned Perry Mason and it just sounds like a nothing show. Right? It's like, okay. It it just sounds like a show. Yeah. Cool. Whatever. And I'm like, let's just give it a go. Mhmm. Because The Boys is coming up soon and Aisha Tyler is doing the after show for The Boys. So, you trust wherever you can.

5:55Oti: For sure.

5:57KT: In a healthy sense. I know we're not really best friends. If if this

6:03Oti: You say that, but when I look at you, your ass betray your words, mate.

6:08KT: I imagine I imagine. Yeah. I imagine Oti is Aisha Tyler. This was a video podcast, I would put up a photo of myself and Aisha Tyler when she came for the Oz Comic Con. But Oti wouldn't be in the picture. Would just be me and Aisha. But generally for this show, I quality is quality is quality. Well, there you go. You can never deny. I really enjoyed it. I guess this is where I pull up both of my monocles, which we've established it becomes a spectacle and say, this is definitely a show that you

6:44KT: it it it has very nice pacing, but what it also means for the TikToks and the Snapchats of this generation is you need to appreciate this show. Right? Mhmm. It's it's not going to be, you know, splooshing from all engines, from all angles. It really even the pilot, it it I think it it really started to build brick by brick. So I I wouldn't say it's slow, but it's it's the nature for these type of shows that are set, you know, in the nineteen thirties where you really are, you know, not painstakingly,

7:20KT: but but you are accumulating the emotional investment or even just the character development because there is some glorious character development in this show, Oti. So overall, loving it. Great times. You know, we don't know when we'll get the next season. Oh, but it is a delicious handful of episodes to delight in. There are quite a lot of, I guess you could call it themes or like sort clusters

7:51KT: of characters that I wanna talk about. But I do wanna just quickly, quickly go through the cast and where we've seen the cast before. Mhmm. So Matthew Rhys, I fucking love him. I did not watch The Americans. And I feel like based on who like, based on his performance in Perry Mason, I feel like out of splooshiness and out of spooshy mountiness, I need to go and watch The Americans. You do? Cause I fucking love him. He also had quite a stint on the TV show Brothers and Sisters. Yeah.

8:25KT: But the the most surprising, and I still don't know how this feels in my soul. He was in something called Death Comes to Pemberley, and he actually played Fitzwilliam Darcy.

8:37Oti: I have no idea what death comes to Pembale is.

8:40Oti: Pembale? Was this set in Kenya or is Pumbala on the coast? Death comes to what?

8:40KT: Death Comes to Pemberley. Alright. I'm like Jenna from 30 Rock where I say some things with a English inflection. The The Roger. Listen to our 30 Rock episode, friends and lovers. I don't know how I feel about anyone playing mister Darcy except for Colin Firth. So I guess my love affair with Matthew Rhys was cut short. But there you go. Juliet Rylance who plays Della Street, who is kind of not even recognizable on her IMDb photo.

9:20KT: She was in something called McMafia, American Gothic, and The Knick. You watch a lot of TV shows, so I wasn't sure if you've seen any of these. No. Okay. So that's fine. Chris Chalk, he's actually secretly a darling of the For Your Reference household. When They See Us, which we covered last year. Right? Yeah. Last year. What a time. He's also plays Lucius Fox in Gotham. Mhmm. Great series.

9:45KT: Mhmm. Need to finish it. He was also in The Newsroom. Yeah. He's in a lot of things. He and you know what? Like, he's that guy when he pops up in something, you're like, oh, it's nice to have him. It's nice to have him. Just just continue to be in our screens and in our eyes. And just just lastly, we have John Lithgow. I will call him Lithgow. Come and fight me, bitches. Unless you're actually from the Lithgow lineage,

10:10KT: then I will accept it. Speaking of lineage, he is in The Crown. Mhmm. 3rd Rock from the Sun, obviously, is probably the most, like, go to sort of recognition you would have for him. Mhmm. Similar to our Bryan Cranston with Malcolm in the Middle. Right?

10:28Oti: Are you telling me? Are you telling me your most recognizable role for Bryan Cranston is Malcolm in the Middle?

10:39KT: But I'm saying no. But I'm saying I'm saying 3rd Rock from the Sun is probably the first sort of introduction you have to John Lithgow, and it's something that you would reminisce and look back on. Okay. We're still not covering Breaking Bad. Fuck off.

10:55Oti: That is a big succession. Fuck off. No. I agree with you. We won't cover Breaking Bad. I know Late to the Show do a really good job of that. We're glad we've seen them about a year ago. Go and check it out. Yeah.

11:06KT: I think we will eventually. We're a TV movie podcast. So we'll see you guys in ten years. And also most notably, John Lithgow was also in Shrek Oti. Mhmm. He played Lord Farquaad. Uh-huh. But I had a literal ogre in our Shrek episode, so that's why we didn't get to talk about John Lithgow in our Shrek episode. Oh, really? That all happened. That is exactly what happened. But that is the cast. I guess it was nice to take a little trip

11:37KT: for where the actors were and where we've seen them. Some new, some we haven't seen before. But let's tackle this show in clusters. Obviously, there are a lot of themes that do get explored. But I think the best way to discuss this show is in clusters and the characters in proximity to those clusters. Mhmm. So let's obviously start off with the titular character, Perry Mason. He starts off as a private investigator,

12:04KT: and then he transitions into becoming a lawyer. A lot of the book focuses on him as a lawyer, but I really appreciated in the show that we got to see his rise and and his growth in career. I actually do prefer a scruffy Mason Mhmm. I must say. A free Mason, if you will. Mhmm. He went went even when he was all, like, you know, when he was all cleaned up, it's I still didn't buy it. But anyway. So let's talk about Perry Mason as a character. I will say,

12:39KT: you know, before halfway through the pilot, I turned to you and I said, he really he strikes me as a McNulty from The Wire Mhmm. Where he does questionable things, but it's always for the intended good. Yep. And he's he's fucking great at what he does. Mhmm. So for a lot of the time, even if you don't like him, he does get graces where probably other people wouldn't.

13:09Oti: Agreed. Like, I I loved the way we saw real true unapologetic character development in Perry Mason Mhmm. And his relationship with EB. And you know how much that sort of meant to him? Yep. He saw EB as a father, and we know he had issues with his sort of parents growing up. Welcome to daddy wood. Exactly. And the fact that EB meant so much

13:32Oti: to him, especially after his stint in the war Uh-huh. And to lose him in such a way Yeah. I think it sort of gave him an opportunity to sort of live up to what EB was Uh-huh. And what EB would have wanted for him. So I I just fully got on board with a sort of Perry Mason character development and how

13:57Oti: Della Street sort of initiated all that just because of how Mason was so in in in intertwined with the sort of legalities of how everything works and how he understands people at an intrinsic level. So it was all just unraveling before eyes. I was all for it. I was buying it. His performance was just like, you you can't watch Matthew Rhys and think that he's not putting his all in a in a role. Absolutely. He's one of those people that are truly are underrated. I don't think people talked about him that much.

14:33Oti: The Americans was really great, and watching him just do this so seamlessly in Perry Mason is just effortless as well. Like, you don't see him acting. Yeah. Yeah. It's like someone just rolled out of bed, it's him. He's Perry Mason. Who's Matthew Rhys, mate?

14:49KT: Exactly. Aside from a thespian. Oh, absolutely. I I like that you touched on his PTSD as well. I like the way that it was laid out in the series and we were slowly given some more information. We were informed about, you know, this disgrace that he felt and to find out that it wasn't even, like, it it was a necessary evil.

15:15KT: Right? Yeah. He was seeing his comrades dying and he obviously, he he did the right thing. But there's that guilt that has weighed on him and it continues to weigh on him and we see that unravel through the series. Series. Yeah. It's the classic Porco Rosso conundrum. You know? Porco Rosso.

15:30Oti: It's it's sort of you've survived this war by the things that you had to do and watching your friends die, having to kill most of them or at least to put them out of their misery. It will be hard for anyone to sort of focus or to try and pull themselves up by the bootstrap to be functional in society and to see him sort of battle that and try to be a good father, a present father. At least the effort that he makes towards that is quite admirable in my opinion.

16:04KT: Yeah. And, you know, we talk about it in a couple of episodes, but he he loved and he received loved in the capacity that he was able to. In many cases, it wasn't enough. In many cases, was through his vices, but he really was a protagonist that you just latched onto. Oh, yeah. And I think the reason for that is because it was so genuine. You know, that survivor's guilt that you were talking about, it didn't need to be explicitly said to us as the audience.

16:37KT: We felt the motions in his, you know, investigating of cases, the way he cared so much for Charlie Dodson and wanting to get justice for him. Yeah. And to see that that things are still shocking because the way Charlie Dodson was died

16:53Oti: and that what they did to his body afterwards in in in sawing of his eyes open. Yeah. It shows you that you could go through shit, and there's still some things fucked up things in the world that could fucking shock and mess you up.

17:05KT: Yeah. And he still has that sense of humanity in him. And he still has that capacity for love. Because that's also what it means. You feel the highs and lows of all emotions. And I definitely love the way that the series tackled this. You know, we we love dark humor. We love morbid humor. And there was definitely droves of that in this series. Oh, for sure. You spoke a bit about him as wanting to be a present father. So I guess just a little note for Linda Mason. I

17:39KT: don't think there's any right or any wrong. I think it's unfortunate that they couldn't stay together, but a lot of life's calamities do unfortunately result in couples and marriages breaking apart. Right? Oh, yeah. And I think they're just casualty to the circumstance. Whether it's him shutting himself off emotionally or him, you know, drowning himself in a pool full of liquor, Kendrick Lamar reference. I think it I don't think there was any evil person in that marriage. No. Not malicious intent at all. Unless we're like fully in the Perry Mason camp and we can't see

18:21KT: objectively, I do feel like they're just victims of the circumstance, you know? But it was interesting to see. Linda definitely has boundaries with Perry and we see that when they're on the way to the funeral and he drops by. But there's definitely more story that I hope that they explore in the next But it definitely denotes to, oh, one of the saddest things, one of the saddest things was when we see the gift that he bought for his son be returned.

18:57KT: Yeah. That was Do you think it was because he couldn't afford the postage or do you think that was because Linda sent it back? Linda sent it back. Right? Yeah. Fucking bitch. But again

18:57Oti: You just said victim of circumstance and no one is in the wrong and then Hey, man. Neck minute.

19:14KT: I've drunk the Perry Mason Kool Aid. What can I tell you? But yeah. So so Perry is obviously integral to this show. There are touch points for Perry throughout this show. So let's move on to some more clusters. Yeah? So I'm assuming this show is going to like, each season is going to capture different cases. Yep. It didn't seem like it until the last episode of the first season where we have Emily Dodson

19:44KT: completely embrace the Radiant Assembly of God. So that kind of closed her story. I thought they were going to open that again because of a mistrial. And then they introduced this new lady. Right? So I think season two is going to follow another storyline. It might broaden like the Radiant Assembly of God and their corruptness. But I think they're going to explore another story. In any case, season one really surrounds the Dodson's. Yeah. So I wanna talk about well, pretty much Emily, Matthew, Charlie,

20:17KT: Herman Baggerly, who's Matthew's dad, and also George Gannon as well. So just I guess every sort of conversation will touch all of those characters. Okay. Okay. So we we started off with a kidnapping of Charlie Dodson. Mhmm.

20:31Oti: We see a kid dropped in a blanket in a tram. Is that a tram or a train? Surely not a tram.

20:39KT: Tram? Trams are like they have their own tracks. Right? Alright. Trams are embedded within the street. Yeah. And I didn't know what to expect.

20:48Oti: I was like, okay. These are quite generous kidnappers to do this and just, you know Leave the baby then. Leave the baby all sort of easy. It it really never is that simple. Mhmm. And then for them to get the baby, and the wife is super excited, I'm like, okay. What's what's the catch? There's something surely going to happen. Only for the father, Matthew, to lift the hood up and reveal that his eyes were was sewn open. Mhmm. That was messed up. That imagery alone, man Yeah.

21:19Oti: To a kid. In your mind, you're thinking, was this done when he was still alive? You know, you'd go through all the sort of scenarios through your head and just feel the the anger, the the pain

21:32Oti: of losing the person that you love. Like, I don't know. It was just one of those things that I didn't really expect. And it happened in the first sort of five minutes of the show. I was like, fuck. We're gonna get a good show right here. Well, it's a wild ride, Strike. Wild ride. Mhmm. It it will be a wild ride. And sort of reveal how all this happened and the the sort of affair, the love triangle Mhmm. All the sort of aspects that make it a really intriguing story.

22:02Oti: And for us, at least as audiences, we were trying to sort of, at least for me, I was trying to sort of try and think who did it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Always suspected the wife. I always thought she had something to do with it. It just seemed so obvious.

22:19KT: But I think that that's that denotes to what's wrong with all of us. Right? Because I because they definitely geared the show in that way. It was very easy to make that assumption, especially if you're fucking in the next room and you leave your baby for that guy to Norman bait your kid through the hole. Yeah. Like, there was so many scenarios where Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, like, it wasn't as if there was a misdirect. It wasn't they like, they were deliberately,

22:49KT: you know, forcing us to believe it was Emily, but it definitely played on our prejudices of, you know, the cheating whoreman. Right? And Matthew was the cuckold. Yeah. Right? So it definitely played to the shitty attitudes that we have. And it did it so brilliantly. When we there there was a turn in the series and it was definitely in the last half of the first season where we start to think,

23:19KT: shit. She's just the lady that had an affair. Like and it doesn't go beyond that. You know what I mean? A lot of the series, I was so irate. Even just Emily being in a scene was pissing me off. Oh, yeah. Right? And that is credit to the show to have a character that you just fucking hate so much and to turn that around in less episodes that they established, that is incredible writing. Because if you were to tell me that I would have one iota of sympathy in Emily's direction,

23:56KT: I would tell you to again fuck off. But it just it does it so well. And it really felt this is definitely you know, we talk about, you know, shows that feel like the episodes are all the same. This is really an event. Perry Mason is a show that benefits from a week to week installment. Mhmm. You know, you watch it, you consume it, you theorize, you discuss, you reflect on how you felt about characters, and then you get another tasty morsel a week later. Surely,

24:29KT: you could binge this show, but its its benefit is really in the way that it is delivered.

24:36Oti: Yeah. I'm not I'm not big fan of sort of trying to see how I myself I could sort of binge this. I think the time in which it lets you simmer with what you've just consumed is sort of pivotal. Yeah. Absolutely. Makes you reflect on the sort of thinking, especially when you have this happening

24:55Oti: super early, you know, in the start of the times where women weren't really value weren't looked as as sort of equal partners. Yeah. They were like a side dish to the main meal Yeah. For men. So for for them to sort of write this angle and I was also on the train of just fucking hell. I can't stand Emily at all. Yeah. To where they brought all this sort of nuances to it all. And I was like it was a conflict in my mind. I was like, what the fuck? Yeah. And I was starting to ask myself these questions. And even when, you know, in between episodes,

25:28Oti: in between the sort of five, six, seven days we have to wait for the next episode, I was always sort of thinking about what it meant for Emily at the time and Yeah. Totally. How it all unraveled.

25:41KT: Because it's one of those things she's like, I'm not guilty. And we're like, yeah, of course, you would fucking say that if you were guilty or not. Right? But it's very interesting because what we know is on the surface with Emily. And then even with Matthew, we knew from the first episode that he was gambling away, you know, any sort of livelihood for family. He was drinking it all away. He was a spoilt son of a very rich man. Right? So we knew all of this yet we kept pointing the finger towards Emily.

26:16KT: Yeah. Interesting. Right? And I love how there's a broader story for corrupt religious institutions because again, when you're ready friends and lovers, we will dive into that. But I really enjoyed the way that we were taken on, you know, this journey and we, you know, we had homework. We definitely had homework. Watch the episode, contemplate about it, accept that you're a shitty person for thinking it was her the whole time. And let's do it again next week. Right?

26:50KT: So it was very compelling. At first, was like, mate, this is a this is a what do you call it? A shut and close. It's it's a no brainer, mate. Like, it's her. And then they just kept reinforcing, you know, our prejudices and playing on that. And it's like, oh, fuck. We're the problem. Like, we're the problem watching this. So it was really interesting to go through that. And I really I really felt for Perry Mason when he kept the the thread in that matchbox. Right? And

27:22KT: it was it was his it was his internal quest to find justice. Oh, yeah. And we even see that, you know, literally at the end of the series with Alice as well. But, you know, surrounding the Dodson's, it really was sensationalism. And, you know, I have it further down in the list if we have time to talk about the media and the way the paparazzi was. You know, that really, you know, swell a lot of doubt as well. And, you know, it amplified details that probably didn't need to be amplified as well.

28:00KT: But I do have that as a point further down. Is there anything else you wanna say about the Dodson's?

28:05Oti: Yeah. The husband is crap, man. He looked also innocent. He has this sort of innocent Yeah. He's got this sort of baby face going for him. He looks like he wouldn't hurt a fly. Yeah. But to sort of start learning how he is as a partner, how he is as a husband, and then you sort of learn the sort of intricacies of his relationship with the father who Yeah. He'd kept secret from everyone.

28:32KT: Yeah. And then she only found out on the way back. Mhmm. Mhmm. Awesome messed up shit. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And the way that it was it was essentially a perfect crime because she was the helpless housewife, right, that had a tryst with George Gannon. And that seemed like the end of the headline. And it probably they probably would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for pesky Perry Mason.

28:59Oti: Oh, yeah.

29:02KT: But it was very it was very compelling to have them as the counterpiece for season one with Perry Mason. And and to see the way that Mason would interplay with all of the characters, with Emily in particular. You know, I think a lot of his attitudes also reflected how we were feeling as well as the series continued too. George Gannon, I I do wonder I do wonder,

29:29KT: you know, with these sorts of characters when you see well, I guess without spoiling any other movie or TV show. But, you know, when you have a character that is used for a specific purpose and then their purpose has been fulfilled, do they not see it coming that they are a loose end and they're going to die? Like, did he realize that he was going to die?

29:51Oti: Probably not.

29:52KT: Yeah. And even even that, even George Gannon's death was a bit of a catalyst in the series as well because that's where you had Perry Mason. And then you also have the intersection with officer Drake as well with the teeth. Right? I also love how Perry and Pete go into the morgue as well to, like, intercept the body. We also have Virgil Sheets, who's the morgue guy, saying that he can't officially, you know, deal with the body, so they just dumped it in a golf ground.

30:30Oti: It'll come back to him regardless.

30:32KT: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And it's like, mate, like, if you can't do it this way, I'm gonna find a way. You're going to do it. I think because he he was under the impression that they told him to come over for sex stuff.

30:45Oti: Yeah. And

30:46KT: then they went downstairs and they saw a dead body. So that was funny. I think even just Perry, Pete, and Virgil, I would love to just watch their

30:46Oti: You know what? Evangelist. What it gave me a vibe of?

30:46KT: Mhmm.

30:46Oti: Bunk and McNulty.

31:00Oti: Perry and Pete sort of dynamic.

31:04KT: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. But let let's let's move on to the next sort of cluster that we have, the Radiant Assembly of God. So in this cluster, we have sister Alice McKeegan, Birdy McKeegan, who's Alice's mom. And then one of the more notable sort of elders, we have Eric Seidel. And then we also have Jim Hicks who was an accountant that also worked with George Gannon. I guess also if you wanna just talk generally about the Radiant Assembly of God.

31:39Oti: I think one of the sort of interesting aspect of it all is that the Radiant Assembly of God, I think, would be sort of on an overlaying narrative throughout the different seasons. They'll just build on it while they focus on a sort of seasonal case by case basis, like sort of True Detective and shit. Okay. So I'm I'm fully bought into this sort of idea of how this would play out. And the fact that we had Alice McKeegan

32:10KT: Uh-huh.

32:11Oti: Tatiana, we love her. We had Tatiana.

32:14KT: I I bet is she your best friend? Like, Aisha Tyler is my best friend?

32:14Oti: Yeah. She's my best friend.

32:14KT: You don't have a picture with her like I do.

32:14Oti: Oh, soon enough.

32:26Oti: We get to walk in her shoes for a bit and see her history or at least her relationship with her mother Mhmm. Which is messed up. Oh, absolutely. And it explains so much as to why she is the way she is. Yeah. So she believes that everything she truly does believe that she has a direct line to god. Mhmm. Her epileptic sort of seizures is a way that she communicates with god or at least that's what she thought. It's fucking painful, my is. Yeah. It's really is insane. So to see how

32:59Oti: the mother sort of plays to her daughter's weakness or at least taking advantage of all that. Like, literally, we see a scene of her offering her daughter for them to get extra gas. My god. I was like, surely you're not gonna do this. That was one of the most disturbing scenes in this. Like, surely as a parent, that is a line that you would not cross. Right? And then at the end of the of of it all, you still come and preach about

33:26Oti: religion and and and god. And and I'm sitting here thinking, like, a lot of the sort of things that we have in the world are like that, where people in their private lives act in such an abhorrent way. Uh-huh. And then that doesn't translate to who they are or at least what they preach.

33:43KT: It just pisses me off. Oh, absolutely. And like you were mentioning, it is sad that, you know, Alice did believe that she was, you know, the messiah essentially. And, you know, it's also very sad that even on a conscious level, even if she had some sort of sense that she wasn't the messiah, the alternative is what? Her mother taking advantage of her? Using her sexuality for gas money? Like, that is a grim alternative to what she chose to believe. If she chose or whether she genuinely believed it.

34:24Oti: Yeah.

34:25KT: That is some fucked up shit. And the way that this series starts is, you know, we are introduced to Alice and she is strong and she is she's very certain of who she is. Mhmm. And as the series unfolds, she starts to unravel and we start to see that she's essentially a puppet. Yep. She doesn't really she doesn't really have overruling power over the church's directions over The board. Exactly. Absolutely. You know? And even so obviously, the operations, she had no say over it. But even in a sermon sort of sense,

35:06KT: she was censored in what she could say and what she couldn't say. Stick to the script. Stick to the script indeed. And Birdy was definitely, you know, the puppeteer. And that became very clear throughout the series as well.

35:19Oti: Well, it also became clear that Birdy and Alice were all just being used by the board to. Oh, yes. For their own sort of advancement

35:29KT: and I also thought it was interesting that this is set in the nineteen thirties. I thought it was interesting that a woman was at the helm of one of the most successful religions. Right?

35:44Oti: Maybe was because she was pretty. Maybe that and also it was just maybe just because it was ideally ceremonial. It didn't mean anything to the underlying value that she couldn't change or act on anything by herself. And the fact that she was a puppet, so that makes it a little bit more believable in that sense. But if we're talking about, like, the OG religions, like, women are not at the top.

36:05KT: Oh, true. True. True. Or like or even on a pastor or a priest level. So I just I thought that was a bit interesting. If anyone has any sort of interesting tidbits about that, let me know because we can pull our glasses up together. But I just thought that was interesting. It was set in the nineteen thirties and she's a woman

36:27KT: and she was at the helm of the church. Just thought that was interesting that, you know, on on one side you have Emily Dodson who doesn't have a voice and she just serves to be the wife and the mother. But then you also have Alice on the other side of the coin where, you know, people actually, you know, come to her for solace. Yeah. Right. So it was interesting. It was definitely interesting. I really, really enjoy, you know, digging beneath the Radiant Assembly of God and seeing all of their investments in shady shit

37:03KT: and how they've become so embedded in their investments. I think Seidel was the one to say in the series, there's no way that they could live off their contributions alone. Yeah.

37:14Oti: Though I'm massively in debt. Oh, yeah.

37:17KT: And it it was it was funny to see the way that Della Street and Perry Mason would talk to each other, the way Della Street stole the titles, essentially. And he's like, you stole the title. So it was interesting to see, you know, how entrenched this church was. Oh, yeah. Right? And how they just kept amassing debt. Right? Maybe this is how I will eventually understand the Netflix model. Like, they eventually they just kept amassing debt and debt and debt. And

37:52KT: like Michael Scott, when he branches off Dunder Mifflin and he asked them to crunch the numbers. Crunched

37:59Oti: them again.

38:00KT: That's essentially what George Gannon and Jim Hicks was doing. Right? And George Gannon's like, I it can't, like, you can't crunch them anymore. Right? Like, I've hit it as well as I can, but there's no more you can't do this. Like, it's just you've got a whopping debt, and you need to address it. Right? Yep. And that's obviously, you know, towards his demise as well. But it was it was just interesting to see how how entrenched they are and the roots that they have within society.

38:31Oti: Oh, so true.

38:33KT: I I also I I also appreciated that they talked about how they also, you know, a lot a lot of the debt that they had, one of them was purchasing the radio station Mhmm. As well. And you can imagine even back then, like that would have been a very effective way. Right? An analog podcast, if you will. Yeah. To be able to share that further information. A scene that it didn't necessarily make me uncomfortable but it did pretty much speak to a lot of my thoughts and opinions

39:08KT: in this sort of subject matter when Alice was trying to get the man to walk.

39:14Oti: Yeah.

39:16KT: Yeah. We see a lot of those, don't we? Oh, yeah. But usually the people that they're healing are plants, so they know that they're part of it. True.

39:25Oti: But this was all sort of, you know, the human away. The human mind is is bloody remarkable.

39:32KT: Mhmm.

39:33Oti: When you when you sort of the the adrenaline of the moment when you think all that is possible and you get to stand up, That's all well and good until you're not in that situation anymore and your body goes back to default. You can fly. You can literally fly.

39:53KT: That's a Key and Peele reference. So, yeah, that was really interesting. I think that does speak to if if we're talking about the argument that Alice believed that she was ordained from on high, that would definitely be a scene to point towards that. Yeah. But then Because she chose someone and she shouldn't have. Like, if she if she had half doubted her ability, she probably would have chose someone that was in on it. Right? But she chose some random guy from the crowd.

40:24Oti: Yeah. And I think that's where the the mother's job would have been in where to to plant someone in there where Alice can come and tell them to stand up and walk and then walk and then dance on the stage and all that. But this was all, you know, ad lib, and she picked someone who

40:41Oti: didn't really have anything to do with sort of you know, who's actually really paralyzed, and they stood up because of all the adrenaline rush and thinking in the mental sort of the the mental state of the moment. Uh-huh. And when that all sort of failed, he was like, that was just for a moment. And then I went back to my chair. And then Alice was like, yeah. But do you did you believe enough?

41:05Oti: Now that becomes your fallback. Ugh. There's always an answer. Wasn't as strong. That's the reason why you couldn't walk. There's always an answer.

41:13KT: It's interesting because I thought Birdy would have tied that bow a bit more neatly because we see, and I guess we can discuss and theorize, with Alice's newest revelation that she can bring Charlie from the dead. Whether that is ethical or not and whether that is fair on the parent, we'll talk about that in a second. But let's just talk about Alice and her believing that she can raise the child from the dead. I think it's quite obvious to conclude that Birdy arranged for another baby

41:49KT: to take the place of Charlie and they removed Charlie wherever he is, but they removed him so it would be like like Jesus resurrecting.

42:00Oti: Right? Jesus and or Lazarus.

42:03KT: Is Lazarus a place?

42:03Oti: Lazarus is a guy who died and then was brought back to life.

42:03KT: Or I guess if you wanna add to the list, Gob Bluth from Arrested Development. We make jokes so we don't hurt anyone too deeply about religion. But yeah. So with Birdy's whole orchestration, I just wanted to bring this point here because we talked about the fragility of the human mind and it's it's it's astounding what the body or what the mind can do when it's under massive sort of adrenaline.

42:38KT: And I wanna bring this back to Emily Dodson. So we have I'm pretty sure it's the last episode. Nearing the end of the series, Emily goes to visit Charlie because there's been a buzz that Charlie has been resurrected.

42:53Oti: Mhmm.

42:54KT: Alice is still on the loose. But, you know, obviously, Emily wants to go and see the baby. And there was I don't think there was any ambiguity. She was she made comments. I think she said that Charlie was bigger and he had Longer hands. Yeah. Yeah. So she she made distinctive comments about how this is not her child. Right? So I don't think there's any ambiguity about whether she believed that was her child or not. Mhmm. But what heartbreakingly

43:23KT: happens within that same scene is she starts to accept that this is Charlie now. Mhmm. And I wanted to talk a bit about that. It's not that she accepts that that's Charlie.

43:35Oti: She pretends to think that that's Charlie. And I think that's a must be a way of acceptance. Yes. Because when she was saying all these sort of different differences between the big new baby and Charlie, you could see Birdy's reaction thinking, oh, is she not gonna buy into this? And once she realized what Birdy's angle was, she said, you know what? I've just been through hell. She's been way through way too much. Yeah. I had a I had a lover who

44:05Oti: went behind my back and did things that a lover shouldn't do to everyone. A lie. Yeah. So she's here without any sort of forward path, and this was a way to buy in for her future and for her to have a purpose in life. Yeah. And I cannot blame her for accepting that. Like, you would have to be an asshole to take that away from her. Yeah. So Yeah. In my mind, I'm like, you know what? You you have nothing else going for you. Why not just cling to this and go with it?

44:34KT: How sad is that, though? Yeah. It's as sad, but viewers that we as viewers also know that that's not Charlie. But, you know, just like some people cling to religion, sometimes you just need that for comfort. Yeah. But that was definitely it was not a happy ending for Emily Dodson by any measure. No. Because imagine having to deal with Matthew, like, just in general and what a degenerate he was. Yeah. And then to find out the man that you what what was the quote? What was the quote that the DA

45:08KT: Maynard Barnes kept saying? Let's go to an island and burn the boat. Dick it. Yeah. Actually, yeah. She was the emotional dump truck in this series. And to be fair, we dumped a lot on her emotionally as well. Yeah. Like, we were we were a few scenes, a few episodes away from grabbing our pitchforks for Emily Dodson. But it is very interesting seeing what will unfold with the Radiant Assembly of God because it seems like Emily is endorsing it. Right?

45:45KT: So I guess we'll see what that means and what the interplays will be in the next season. Yeah. Let's move on to another cluster. I wrote cops, but then in brackets, mostly crooked cops. So the non crooked cop that we have is Paul Drake and his wife, Clara Drake. We have Joe Ennis, the crookedest of crooked, and Gene Holcomb.

46:14Oti: When you look up Paul Drake, I think he's one of the people that has massive character development in this. Oh, absolutely. He's happy to play the part. He's happy to play the part of a black cop without he's happy to play the part of a black cop without rocking the boat. Mhmm. He he knows where he stands in society. He's happy to go with that. He has a wife who's seemingly super keen to just accept the situation. And, you know, as long as we we we we surviving, that's fine.

46:50Oti: But for for Drake, there's so much to laugh more than surviving, and it should be that for everyone else. You need to be able to thrive. And for you to be able to thrive, we see Drake struggling with that sort of aspect. Where where do you draw the line between just accepting everything around you that's massively corrupt, that's massively insensitive Yep. That's pushing you, making sure that you stay down to the point where he starts crying. Yeah. Because he has and listening to the wife, he he you see those sort of

47:28Oti: facial expressions when the wife is talking to her friends saying, I don't care. As long as we just stay by our you know? We accept what it is. We'll take this money because it'll bring food to the table. I don't care. And I think she I think she had a veneer

47:45KT: of the perception of being a cop. But at the same time, she wasn't realizing that he's a black cop. Right? And this was in the 1930s. There's definitely parallels that you can draw even to today, unfortunately. But this was in the 1930s where, you know, even he admitted himself, there were some limitations, you know, there were some arrests that he couldn't make pretty You know, there are some things that he did need to turn a blind eye to, but even within his own realm of power, he did find that sense of power. Mhmm. Right?

48:23KT: And what pissed me off about Clara was she only understood when it happened to her or at least she was there when it happened. When they went it was just a acute leisurely thing where they went to a beach somewhere else. Right? And she's like, oh, well, he's a cop. And he and the white cop was like, woah, who cares? Get lost. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it didn't matter one iota. Right? And to see that sort of interplay, what I also really appreciate about Perry Mason is they didn't shy away from

48:58KT: The time. The time. Yep. And and I guess the even the sort of casual racism that will be thrown his way, whether it's through Ennis, whether it's through the captain, they didn't shy away from that, but it didn't become salacious like Quentin a Jerome Tarantino joint. So it really it did it well. I definitely wanna give some accolades in that regard. But at the end of the day, Paul Drake was, as they would say in The Wire, natural police.

49:31KT: Oh, he was natural police all day long. And he and I I do like because you talked about him having immense character development and, you know, he understood his limitations. But what I do like is he did test that limitations.

49:46KT: There were lessons that he didn't need to learn, but he had to learn given the climate. Right? And he did try and push back. Yeah. But then it was forced to change his report because that's not what Ennis and Holcomb were reporting. Mhmm. Right? And that's where we have that cute sort of interplay with him and Perry Mason. Because it's like you see two very capable people and you just want them to work together. Yeah. Because it's tough to just

50:12Oti: be the person that they expect you to be Yeah. And to toe the line. Yeah. And you see that he did his homework,

50:18KT: and he went to the rooftop because he knew it just didn't add up. It didn't make sense. And he was the one to find the partial sordid teeth. Right? Who knew we could, you know, unite ourselves by partial teeth?

50:35Oti: Before you reference our sordid teeth. Partial it was partial it was part of the dentures.

50:40KT: I guess it gives a better meaning to word-of-mouth if you'll pardon the Why give me a fake laugh Oti?

50:40Oti: I give you some real rambunctious laughs.

50:40KT: I don't know if that deserved a rambunctious anything. Just like Clara doesn't deserve anything. But yeah, there were definitely moments, especially with Ennis offering to pay for the groceries. Like there's paying for groceries and they're sending a message of like keeping you less. Making you feel less and keeping you in your place, so to speak.

51:18KT: So that didn't sit well with me, but I'm glad that it didn't shy away from moments that don't sit well with you. Right? Let's speak a bit about Ennis and Holcomb.

51:30Oti: Oh, the most corrupt people ever. The most corrupt

51:34KT: people ever. You know, there there are many moments that reinforce Joe Ennis and how well, I guess you could call him evil or at least how much he followed through on, you know, loose ends. Right? And we see that with Seidel. And I don't know about you, Oti, but I knew he wasn't going to make it to wherever he was going. Of course not. Like and when they got out of the car, it's like, come on, man. It was written in the tumbleweeds, man. It was written in the tumbleweeds. The Gannons of love.

52:11KT: But yeah. And it's interesting. I wonder if these people know, like, you feel that impending Seidel, we got to see. So we didn't get to see Gannon. But Seidel, you could see that he had no idea. He was none the wiser. He was ready to sip his corona on a beach somewhere. Right? So it was just very interesting to see the way that Ennis he was very effective, I would say. He didn't leave anything to chance. And I have, like, face blindness, especially when characters

52:45KT: when too many characters get introduced to me, I get confused over who's who. But I don't think it was I don't think it I think they showed Ennis. So if you remembered what Ennis looked like, you knew he was guilty from the start. But for me, it was a surprise because I forgot. Like, I like, yeah. It's just information overload. I'm sure there's a term for that. Maybe it's just KT overload, but who knows? But Joe Ennis was very effective, but also at the same time, as much as other people

53:20KT: were loose ends and their clock was ticking, so was his. Yeah. What did you think about one of the final scenes with Joe Ennis and Gene Holcomb?

53:29Oti: I did not see it coming. I did not see you did? I did. I did not I thought make it a way that he'll he'll he's already gotten rid of the loose ends in Seidel. I thought that was it.

53:45KT: But the thing is he knows too much and he'll he'll build a grudge. And he he was quite, you know, well versed in the brothel as well. So he was very integral to that. Right? And also with Charlie Dodson dying because of him overdosing through the breast milk. Right? So

54:08KT: it just all led back to Ennis and the fact that, you know, Perry Mason is like a dog with a bone. He wasn't going to let that go. Yeah. And that was made very clear.

54:08Oti: You know what annoyed me?

54:08KT: Mhmm.

54:08Oti: I think it was the last episode where we I I think the start of the scene,

54:25Oti: we're in a court, and Perry is grilling Ennis in the stand, and you can see Ennis sweating. I was like, yes. I'm all for this. Come on. You've got him. Yeah. Only for them to revert to back to Mason in his house with it's it's sort of a mock trial. It's a visualization. Yeah. That pissed me off. But the thing like being played. I was I was already getting excited.

54:53KT: Because you're the player. But it it just drove towards the fact that they didn't have enough evidence against Ennis.

55:02Oti: Yeah. So they couldn't nail him. But I wanted him to be in jail.

55:07KT: Death was such an easy cop out for him. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. But what what could you do? There wasn't anything you could do. And he he was starting to perk up a bit too much. Definitely. So but the interesting thing about that was it was very it was very Shakespearean tragedy. You know? And I'm like, I hope Holcomb knows that he's the next one to go. Like

55:33KT: like, while he's doing this, I hope he knows. Yeah, mate. It's coming for you. It's coming for you. Like, just make just continue to make yourself useful like Littlefinger from Game of Thrones. So just

55:45Oti: make yourself useful. We know how that ended for Littlefinger.

55:49KT: Spoiler. But I think, you know, Game of Thrones is disappointing in the last season at least anyway. Yeah. So I I feel like actually, I feel like if you've watched Game of Thrones, you've watched it. I don't think there's going to be a new wave of Game of Thrones. Right? Nah. Yeah. Nah, I don't think so. And that's not even the biggest spoiler in Game of Thrones anyway.

56:12Oti: Well, at least I'm just done with that world. Oh, you're not looking forward to the prequels? No, I'm ready to delve into something more, just something different.

56:23KT: Fair enough. But yeah, it was just interesting to see Holcomb not necessarily revel in it, but like surely he knows that it's on the horizon for him as well. Right? So there you go. The last sort of cluster that I wanted to dive into is, I guess I called it like the legal system. Right? So we have EB, we have Della Street, we have Maynard Barnes, who is the scoffing opposition, the district attorney. We have the judge, Fred Wright. And then we also have Hamilton Burger, who

57:02KT: helps coach when we talked about that fantasy sort of sequence. He's the one that's coaching Perry Mason. And he's also the fella that might have potentially recruited Pete for the future seasons. So let's talk a bit about the legal sort of system in Perry Mason.

57:19Oti: I loved it. I loved I loved EB and what he tried to do. I think it was sad seeing he'd burnt so many bridges. Yeah. And no one was there for him on the end.

57:32KT: I don't think he burnt bridges. I think people were just fucking selfish.

57:36Oti: You reckon? I think he just burned bridges. Like with his partner, he'd stolen or embezzled money.

57:43KT: Oh, okay. So I'm romanticizing

57:45Oti: you, baby. Sorry. Romanticizing you. He'd he'd done shit and his he he sort of relied that the fact that, oh, we've been partners for this amount of years. We should be fine when I come and call, you know, you'll be there at my back and call, which isn't the case. So he slowly realized a lot of his friends weren't really there for him. Mhmm. And came this sort of heavy burden for him to carry Yep. To accept that he can't do anything for Emily. And that ultimately just led to him dying by suicide, which was really sad to see.

58:20KT: It was sad. I I feel like because it was John Lithgow, I was waiting for the next episode because it was like the end of the episode. Right? So I was waiting for the next episode to show that like someone intercepted him and he didn't die. Right? But he was gone. Like It was gone. I felt like I didn't accept it. I was like, what the fuck is going on? It was interesting. Like you mentioned at the top of the episode,

58:48KT: EB did serve as like a father figure for Perry Mason. And to to feel that loss through Perry's lens was definitely something that was to be experienced through the show. Especially with Della Street as well. I think we're all trying to figure out what a specific title was because she was secretary, but she seemed to insert She's a she a? Well, like, if you're the secretary and you're also like I I don't understand why she felt like her opinion was as important.

59:24KT: Okay. Fair enough. Emily ended up being innocent, but I felt like she backed her just because she was a woman. Maybe so. Like, we had restrictions with her at the start of the show for sure. She was on like Ella Projection Street. Right? But yeah, like it was interesting to see how, you know, once it got to EB And Della Street, it was kind of already done. Like Perry was the one that was bringing in all the information Yeah. As well. Is there anything you wanna say about Maynard Barnes?

59:24Oti: She's sleazy, man.

59:24KT: Right?

60:02Oti: He's sleazier than Saul Goodman.

60:04KT: Yeah. He didn't have the charisma of, like, Johnnie Cochran or something. No.

60:10Oti: He's just dumb, dunny, sleazy lawyer.

60:14KT: Yeah. Because I think it was in the closing remarks, you know, Perry Mason gave a very compelling speech about, you know, Emily Dodson and what she's gone through. And the end of the day, this is about Charlie. And there's nothing really that the prosecution has brought up to even start to build a case against Emily. Right? All they have is the affair and, you know, they don't really have any sort of compelling evidence that she knew as she was involved in the kidnapping and the ransom. Right? And you have this really inspirational, heartfelt, heartwarming

60:55KT: speech from Perry Mason. And then you have Maynard Barnes coming up and be like, she's a whore.

61:04Oti: You wanted to go to an island and burn the boat too. But then again, he's the reason why EB killed himself. At least, I think he played such a big part in it because he said that if EB did not recuse himself Uh-huh. He would reveal the details to the law board and get his license revoked that he embezzled. Yeah. So EB was never going to try that case one way or another. He definitely strong armed him. Yeah. Yeah.

61:31KT: He flexed in in all of the ways he could. What do you think about the judge?

61:36Oti: I feel like the judge was always too pro district attorney. Like, he was too quick to side with Maynard in a lot of his motions Yeah. Than at least trying to understand the aspect of of the defense.

61:52KT: Well, they even had, you know, the interchange with EB and the judge. And, you know, EB is like, you're still young enough to make the right decisions. He's like, I'm old. I give up. That was kind of where he was coming from. Anything that was easy to conclude, that's what he did. Right? So it was interesting to see the interplay, especially with Perry Mason, with that legal

62:19KT: sort of world. Like you could feel that he was out of his depth, but you were cheering him on and wanting you to just wanted him to do well. Yeah. Right? Let's talk a bit about Pete Strickland. Cause you said that they were the Bunk and the McNulty of this outfit. How do you feel about Pete in general?

62:38Oti: I like Pete. Think

62:40KT: They were the two rag tags that took a picture of the chubby man eating cake off the lady's pussy. Right? Yeah.

62:46Oti: Pete always has Perry's back. Absolutely. To a fault. And I think one of those those things where when when Perry was going through a hard time with his just losing his house. Yep.

63:01Oti: And then he took it all out to Pete, and he's always been the sort of punching bag for when because he's always close to he's always there. Yeah. Yeah. He's always close, prospective to to Perry. So when Perry's not feeling away, he's always going to be the punching bag. Yeah. And it just happened that it was a bit too much. You know? It was one time too many.

63:21Oti: And he said, you know what? I can't do this. And I just fully understand him backing out from that case, and I accepted it. And I think what really just pushed him towards going to a different sort of law lawyer at the end of it was when he learned that he didn't need to bribe. Yeah. When he didn't need to bribe a jury.

63:21KT: Who knew bribery could be so sad?

63:21Oti: When he didn't need to bribe a juror.

63:47KT: Because it was three. Even if he hadn't paid the person, there still would have been two against. There would have still been a mistrial. Yep. Fuck, man. Yep. And I think that's what's even more sad because a lot of because you can definitely see an age gap with Pete Strickland and also Perry Mason. And, you know, whether it's true or not, Pete does, you know, give himself credit for teaching Perry everything he knows. And it seems like he's gotten to a point where he realized that,

64:16KT: know, Perry Mason has exceeded him in a lot of senses. And not not to say that there's a feeling of inadequacy, but I guess he felt like there's not much more he can do. Like, he always felt like his role was to get in and fix stuff. Yeah. Right? And the bribery is a classic example of that. And then once he realized that he doesn't need to do that, like maybe this was his opportunity to try and focus on himself. Yeah. Which is beautiful, but it's also very sad because, you know, for as

64:48KT: as brothel loving as he was, we did latch onto him as a character. We really did. More than the women latched onto him. I I don't know if you wanna end on this note, but we haven't talked about Lupe at all. There's nothing to say about Lupe.

65:06Oti: I I do not recognize her as a character in this show. She's fucking gross. Right? Yeah. She and then at the end of it, Perry Mason giving her a a letter saying she understands that she she can take the house with a full blessing. I'm like, piss

65:20Oti: off. She used Perry. She knew what she was doing from the get go. Absolutely. I didn't really buy that sort of love story. She didn't really have any sort of affections for him. She even with the way they're having sex, it was always about her. Oh, yeah. So at the end of it, I'm like, good riddance. Hopefully, Perry doesn't go away. Because that's And Yes. I saw I think Perry will ultimately end up with Alice. So that's what I'm rooting for.

65:20KT: Wow.

65:45KT: You know they put those sprinkles in there for the stans.

65:45Oti: Yeah. I know.

65:45KT: You were eating up every morning all so of them.

65:55KT: Is that the first time I've growled on here? Oh my. What are you doing to me, Oti? Yeah. Lupe was a fucking problem. And, you know, like a lot of the times in media or in life, you know, the man gets what they want sexually and the woman is made to feel empty. I don't think the answer to that is to make the woman the other way. Yeah. Right?

66:19KT: But in any case, that's what we got in the show. I guess the last thing that is a bit more sweeter that I do wanna end on is Della Street and her relationship with Hazel. Because she was also in a show that you watched as well.

66:35Oti: We love Hazel. She's in who was it? Last Man Standing.

66:43KT: And I hope I hope that is the last time you ever mentioned that on the podcast. It is because when she left, I stopped watching that show. I just I guess I just wanted to mention them introducing, you know, LGBT story and how it didn't feel like they were fully hedging their bets on this storyline being the most important thing. It was very natural.

67:11Oti: It really was. They just

67:14KT: put it in the story and we were there to consume it. And I definitely enjoyed that storyline, but also this fucking series, friends and lovers. Yep. Thank you for embarking and docking on this journey of the HBO series Perry Mason. Oh. We're going to finish in a segment we call For Your Reference, Oti.

67:38Oti: I'm gonna reference two shows. If you love Matthew Rhys, you'll find him on The Americans. It ended, which I've not I've yet to see in the final season. I'm saving it for when KT actually watches the show. Alright. Alright. Super exciting times ahead. And then the second one would be Orphan Black, who if you really wanna see Tatiana Maslany just fully kill it in each and every level, her acting chops is just amazing. Super great. So those are my two references.

68:09KT: I also wanna commend Oti on editing out two hours worth talking about Tatiana. I will reference The Wire. Mhmm. And where you can stay wired to us on a day to day basis on Twitter and Instagram, we are @ForYourRefPod. You can write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com. We're also on Apple Podcast if you like to leave a review or rating, and we'll see you guys next week. See you. Bye.