Orphan – Esther is born

Full transcript of Orphan – Esther is born.

0:00KT: It's another week in the For Your Reference household and it is another sanctimonious big, bad collaboration with our sweetie boys. The FilmBusters. Thank you so much for having us on. We talked about The Two Popes and we became better lovers at the end. Quid Pro Mo. Take the perimeter away.

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0:41Ad: FilmBusters. Our courteous, efficient staff is on call 24 hours a day to serve all your cinematic needs. Ah, come on. You got, how can it not? That are so interesting. I didn't care, but shit it's one of the worst I've seen this year. Five is a great study on the, on, uh, mental health. It's great. And get, give, give w that Oscar give it to him.

1:03Ad: Well, there might be someone else. It may be, but give it to him. Just give him an extra one. Wait a minute. Did you say you shed a tear? Yeah. Oh, victory, victory. Sweet victory. Wow. At the very end that interest. Yes. I was actually handing an olive branch for then you could not accept it. That's right. Bullshit.

1:19KT: I'm sorry. It's a, it's an empty shell of a film. This film. I can't see anyone who'd enjoy it. I don't even know who it's for. I think it's probably even meant to be. And like, if we are not finding it good, who's finding it. Good. What ass fucking cinema man FilmBusters. We are ready to enlighten you makes me feel good. Hey, friends and literal daddy lovers, welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host, KT

1:52Oti: And Oti,

1:54KT: Delicately adorn your wrists and necks for a plan of seduction

1:59Oti: mm-hmm

2:00KT: and ensure parental advisory as we cover the Orphan films this Oh, yay Yay. Woohoo.

2:08Oti: Oh, he tried something new today.

2:10KT: It was just a rollercoaster, I believe. Oh.

2:12Oti: Oh, wow.

2:13KT: Uh, welcome, welcome friends and lovers. If you are new to the For Your Reference household, of course you are joining us on the daddy flavored episode. This is the time to say spoiler. Spoiler, spoiler, daddy, grab daddy, grab daddy. Grab.

2:30Oti: Oh,

2:31KT: wow. I'm I'm still thinking about shirtless Ethan Hawke with a belt. all, I don't know if his lap could handle my as, but I'll make it work.

2:43KT: Um, you know, right off the top of this, before I get into general stats and information, I am around the age of Esther in the settings of these films. And for them sure. You would note that I, and I'm not even talking about like my size, like even if I was Esther size, Oti will probably vouch that I am too much of a fucking pervert for you to not know that I'm not a child,

3:07Oti: A hundred percent agreed.

3:08KT: Or maybe I'm like baby Forest Whitaker in the Key & Peele sketches. let's get into general stats of informations of both films. I've also written down themes. That will be quite nice to explore across both films as well. Um, and aside from our tantalizing mu oriented discussion, we're not going to numerically rate these. So hold out for Christmas friends and lovers, where we.

3:35KT: Everything we've covered for the, yeah. The original Orphan film was released in July of 2009 director Jaume Collet-Serra. And in regards to writers. Well, the story we have Alex Mace, and for the screenplay, we have David Leslie Johnson McGoldrick in regards to the budget 20 million. That's a nice, uh, chunk of change for an indie, you know, sort of horror and a worldwide gross of 77.9 million.

4:07Oti: Oh, nice big bank.

4:09KT: Oh, thank you. Y G O T mm-hmm are you, does that hip hop. Uh, and I guess go and check out our open source hip hop. Who does hip hop belong to? O

4:19Oti: all of us.

4:20KT: not Esther

4:21Oti: especially, it belongs to Esther,

4:24KT: Uh, um, in regards to Orphan: First Kill, which is a prequel, if anyone's confused, it's supposed to happen before the event of the first film was released in the US in August of 2022, most recently was released in Australia, um, September 20, 22 as well. In regards to director, we have William Bell in regards to writer, we have David Coggeshall budget, budget budget. As we see with all of the sequels, they increase 50 million currently, according to Don Cheeto's algorithm, Wikipedias 8.7 million worldwide gross

5:05Oti: and climbing

5:06KT: cast for the first film include Vera Farmiga. It is not the first time. Obviously we reference her, um, love and Lord her a lot. But when they see. Um, I from periphery, that would be the first time we've covered her on the podcast and CCH Pounder.

5:24Oti: Yeah.

5:25KT: They did her dirty in The Shield and they did her dirty here. she got that doc tan treatment um, in regards to the cast of Orphan: First Kill, um, Isabelle Fuhrman, obviously, of course, uh, and Julia Stiles.

5:44Oti: Love our Stiles is here.

5:45KT: how are you feeling that this is potentially, and I do think this is our first Julia Stiles of the podcast. How are you feeling that Orphan: First Kill is her credit here.

5:55Oti: doesn't matter. As long as she's finally

5:58KT: still counting

5:59Oti: still counts.

6:00KT: Who, who, uh, before we get into the themes that I've penciled down, uh, let's talk about first impressions for both films. Uh, I guess you, we can go back and forth. So you start off. How did you feel with Orphan, I believe we've either watched it two or three times. Um, so how did you feel watching it initially? And how did you feel now? Because we watched it and then rewatched Orphan: First Kill.

6:29Oti: So watching Orphan, I think the first time back in Kenya, I think it just took me back. Mm-hmm I, I could not believe what I watched, um, the plot twist itself.

6:40Oti: I was, I, I, I was sitting on that couch. Just wondering what the fuck. Yeah. It's one of those movies that I, I just, it stayed with me, you know, whenever, whenever we we're talking about horror, Orphan would always be injected there somehow in one shape or form because it just stuck. I think it's one of those things that I never really understood, or I never really appreciated how much I reference it in normal fucking conversation Oh, you mean in the bed? Chambers, let me take care of you, Johnny.

7:09Oti: Oh, we love a good We love a good taking care of Johnny.

7:15KT: role play, keeps it spicy friends and lovers.

7:18Oti: Uh, but it it's, it just shocked. It just shook me. It shook me. And I think, uh, after we linked up, we watched it together a couple of times and it never lost it. Fucking shock.

7:30KT: You know, you always come back to, oh my God, this is fucking wild. And I think watching it back ring exactly what the plot twist is, makes it even more fucking Provo. Yeah. I think it's like the opposite of The Sixth Sense. Cause kind of once, you know, what is happening in The Sixth Sense, I don't know if it has the same rewatch ability, not just rewatch ability, but having the same sort of. Payoff and, you know, you get more sinister sort of tones now that, you know, cuz you keep pussy footing around.

7:59KT: We've said spoilers. So we know what the plot twist is. Um, she has a disorder and she in the first film, um, is a 33 year old woman. And then in the prequel as a 31 year old. So, you know, she's in a woo. Whoa, Living Single era, like she, she's 30 plus, you know, she's part of the Zeke club where we're taking fish oil tablets before we hit the, before we hit the dance floor

8:26Oti: coming for Z for the last three weeks consecutively.

8:32KT: And, and you get distracted every time.

8:35Oti: Yeah. But to be fair, you know, you compared this with, um, Sixth Sense in terms of the shock element of it, but what Sixth Sense did, was it knocked you off your fucking feet in the initial reveal? Oh yes. That even, it just appreciated for that alone. It's one of our reverse Octa winners where it just, you can't take you can't, you can't make that shit

8:57KT: Wow. That is a For Your Reference deep cut. It is. Thank you, Oti. I absolutely agree with you. Um, and I will striking ere throughs. You after this recording, again, there's some For Your Reference deep cuts, uh, and also go and check out our Splooshies awards if you haven't, um, checked out the three that we have so far.

9:17KT: Um, but I absolutely agree with you. Um, you know, On this journey of starting the podcast? Um, I, I think naturally, um, when, without even trying the way that I watch and consume films has changed from the average casual, just watch a movie, have some giggle, giggles, um, you know, yelling in, in brotherhood. Killmonger when he talks about museums.

9:44KT: Like not to say that, um, you know, my, my watching was surface level, but it was very much watch a film carry on with my life. And, um, Orphan was a great film, but I think. Even watching it now and is exactly what you're saying. It really does stand the test of time. And I don't think I realized how great that film was, or maybe it's just as time has gone on and other films have come out, you start to realize how bolstered in quality Orphan was like, it fucking works on every.

10:14KT: Level. And I think, you know, I think what really makes it work is there is an earnest attempt at telling a story. Right. And I think that's part of the great sort of formulas of any sort of like comedy or any sort of like anime you have, like, you need to have the element of like a straight man. Right.

10:32Oti: Mm.

10:33KT: Um, you know, our N. If we're gonna talk about Naruto or, or Rock Lee in his ninja PS, um, like there, there can be a lot of ridiculous or balls to the war mayhem, but there needs to be some grounding and some Anchorage. And I think, you know, Vera Farmiga obviously love and splooshes great performance, but her as Kate really brought an earnestness to the film.

10:57KT: It does become, it does become a bit sad because she's genuinely trying to grieve over a child, but it really adds to the sinister sort of layers that we see with Esther. um, you know, and then with every sort of, uh, You know, with every sort of scene, we were really layering the seasoning of the dish that is Orphan.

11:22KT: You know, I think when you get any sort of film, whether it's a blockbuster or whether it's more of the indie leaning, what I personally enjoy is when you are layering the seasoning of the same dish instead of creating side dishes around it.

11:38Oti: A heard girl. I think the way the story is told is, is quite, um, engaging. And I think you, you are, you are stuck in buying into the stories of the characters in Kate verus Kate character.

11:51Oti: You get to see her go through the process of, you know, even when she starts questioning herself about, wait, wait, Esther, just say this, you know, it it's, it plants a seed and it unravels slowly and it's viable. You can buy that. That's. Sort of correct thought thought process that anyone would go through. But even when Kate was showing the Rose Bush, I'm like this poor lady, like she does not know what she's about to get

12:16Oti: Yeah. And the, and, and the most intriguing thing for me was that those, it seemed like an honest attempt in Esther's first bit, or at least in the first half to sort of try and connect with Kate in, in, in, in a way in which we didn't really see it in Orphan: First Kill, you know, like there was.

12:35Oti: Sort of, oh, I'll spend time with ma for a bit, but then after the fucking and her seeing the fucking, she was, yeah, bitch, she gotta go I

12:45Oti: know why she assumed it was happening. Like they weren't the up practicing abstinence or whatever yeah. Or maybe

12:52KT: it's like, you find she could like delude herself, but then once you see it, it's hard to unsay it. Right. Yeah. But. It's interesting that you say that because, but even after watching her multiple times, you still think Esther was earnestly trying to get to know

13:06Oti: Yeah. Like I, I just thought of, you know, I didn't even think about it the first few times I watched it. It's not until I watched First Kill that. I saw the relationship with Kate be a bit different.

13:16KT: Like her listening to her, um, talking about. Uh, the death of our baby, and even trying to practice the piano with her, where those moments, where they were together, at least alone, you know, the intimate moments, whether or not it was truly honest is one thing I always saw her as being opportunistic. And even after watching it, like, after knowing what the plot twist is, like, it felt very manipulative and it felt very calculating and she was just gathering Intel to use against Kate. That's the way I saw it. Anyway.

13:49Oti: Fair enough. Maybe there's a bit of that. I just saw it differently, especially after watching First Kill.

13:54KT: Um, you also touched on something. It, but it is one of the things, so I'll, I'll leave that for later. You just went straight to the fucking, eh, yeah. but all in all, you know, when I think, you know, great sort of horror films, um, I think of Hereditary, I think of Upgrade, I think of Get Out.

14:15KT: Um, and I think of Orphan as well. Like it's just a Ja AAU and it really deliver. Punch on punch on punch. And you know, you talk about, you know, the sort of, um, interplay with the characters like poor Max. Like I think like we don't even have children, but I would never treat children. So cruelly.

14:37Oti: Yeah.

14:38KT: It's like, do, do you like kids? Like, is that okay? First of all, we're targeting orphanages and now even the kids that, that are in their biological homes, you wanna terrorize them too.

14:48Oti: Mm-hmm

14:50KT: um, but you know, with Max the, the, also the way that she was showing, you know, The pictures to Daniel, like it's so beautifully illustrated how Esther is like a very dangerous force, a rooster in the coop. If you are pardon in the punt, go and check out The White Tiger. Um, while we're out at friends and lovers, but wow. Like just like really, really, and the last like 15 minutes, man, it was fucking wild.

15:20Oti: it was

15:21KT: because, you know, we've already mentioned spoilers and we're going to talk about, um, you know, Orphan: First Kill and talk about themes, but I'm coming straight to the end. So she had attempted to, but Daniel is still alive. Mm. She murdered the dad. But I guess that's also, like you said, you know, being rejected and all that sort of incel shit. Um, Max is never going to have a normal life after this.

15:45Oti: not poor.

15:47KT: kids.

15:48Oti: Kid's not

15:49KT: cool, man. Um, so I guess if we're talking about body count, maybe not as much let's get into Orphan: First Kill. How did you, how did you feel about it? We watched it first as a early screener, and then we watched it again, um, in the lead up just to get the tasting of both films. So you've watched it twice now. Thoughts, feelings, qualms, quarrels, quandaries.

16:10Oti: first time I thought it was just fine. I think watching it in a sort of cinematic environment, uh, played a bit of part for me.

16:18Oti: Cause I think a lot of these movies, especially horror, I'm more, I think I, I prefer being sort of insular being by my well being in a sort of more private environment where I can actually be scared if I want to and not holding shit in. Cause I, I, that's toxic masculinity.

16:34Oti: gonna be the one.

16:35KT: Screams on top of my fucking forest captain. Laers

16:40Oti: Exactly. I'm not gonna Scooby doing there. so

16:47KT: gonna scrappy dude.

16:48Oti: uh, but uh, I think watching it the second time, I appreciated it more, um, just seeing how everyone had bought in. All right. We know you're not a 10 year old girl. We know you're fatty. Cool. Yeah. So I was like, okay, hopefully it's not just gonna be a repeat of what we'd watched in Orphan We all have our skeletons that color with Tricia and Gunnar. So let's play this shit out. And I think that was quite refreshing and enjoyable. Really? Yeah. I liked it.

17:16KT: So you like it the second time round? Cause I remember the first time we both were on the same

17:21Oti: the first time I was a bit non telling about it.

17:24Oti: I think having the second rewatch, I sort of appreciated it for what it was. Um, I think just having the angle where you get to see Tricia and Esther knowing they're super bad people, but still trying to fight for this man. I thought it was just crazy and ridiculous, but I walked to some degree.

17:46KT: That's so interesting because, well, I, you know, like it's, it's not my fave and, you know, I've, I've talked about really the only great instances of like prequels sequels, reboots, spinoffs comebacks, and that sort of thing is like, Don Mancini being the king of horror, you know, with the Chucky TV series.

18:07Oti: yeah,

18:08KT: I think that's also because you have the creator, that's still a part of it. Um, you know, being able to helm and curate and, you know, navigate the ship that is their IP. Right. But,

18:20Oti: Oh, are you coming for Halloween? Eh,

18:21KT: Right? I was, you know, you know, I was going to mention John Carpenter because we all remember what the third Halloween was like, am I.

18:29Oti: Oh, yeah.

18:33KT: I was going to mention it, but I thought I'll let it cool down for a bit,

18:36Oti: Oh, he did give us a really creepy Shamrock song then. So

18:40KT: I, I I'll need to check the timeline, but I think that's when I developed two Val breasts by LL Cool J erotica well, if the stork bring babies, LL Cool J brings the titties.

18:54Oti: Fair enough. I could argue with that.

18:59KT: you know, so, you know, coming back to Orphan: First Kill, it's interesting because I didn't necessarily care for it. And you know, like I was saying with like Mortal Kombat as well, I don't think a prequel was needed or was necessary because Orphan was so fucking. Right. It didn't really need any, like, I, I know there's like general sort of, um, nitpicking, like Starbucks Game of Thrones, level of nitpicking about how a kid from Estonia can end up in America.

19:30KT: But I really didn't think anything of that. Like if you think about orphanages in the first place, people aren't really checking for them. Are they? Mm. So why does it matter that this kid is from a different place? You know what I mean? Like, unless you're going to take care of all of these children that are being forgotten about then it's really none of your business, right?

19:48Oti: There's there's a million where that kid would've been there. Like just bloody think. Yeah. Doesn't matter.

19:54KT: like it wasn't worth building a prequel out of.

19:57Oti: I think this is, this is the sort of argument where you want, you usually need to see montages for, for you to be explained that this guy has become so strong

20:06KT: montage.

20:08Oti: I wanna see montage

20:11KT: montage.

20:12Oti: Yeah. But I, I didn't think that was a plot hole or anything, any like, it would take away from the movie that's just nonsense,

20:20KT: rewatching it. Now, I didn't really think about that sort of element. So I guess I'm already coming with a high barrier of entry because I didn't see the need for a prequel. So I wanna make that very clear. Um, and then watching it in the cinema, you know, like let's just come to it because it's not one of my themes, but I've found the camera work very distracting in this film.

20:43KT: because Isabelle, as far, like as much as she did a great job in Orphan, you know, life goes on. Right. I feel like they should have casted an actual child. Right. Mm-hmm , it's kind of what, you know, you just like reference South Park. Like it's kind of what makes South Park fun because you're visually seeing kids, they sound like kids and they're saying egregious shit. Right. And that's also what was great about Orphan. Like you could see that Isabelle was a kid playing ES.

21:10KT: Right. So there were even moments like, even though let me take care of you, Johnny Z. I was like, I don't remember it being this intense. Like it feels like even when they try to do it, it's like, and then they were trying to suggest that she had her hand under the blanket. I was like, oh no, no, no, no, no

21:28Oti: away. You know

21:29KT: what I mean? Like, but, but that's what adds to the film because you can actually see, like, you know, I'm not saying that Orphan: First Kill is to the level of. Like having 50 year olds in the production, but there was definitely like, there was so much, and I guess if I can also lend, you know, Not necessarily gimmicks, but like, you know, camera sort of trickery and techniques and that sort of thing Boyhood, you know?

21:56KT: Yeah, exactly. Like, you know, throughout the years, we've mentioned many times and you know, we've laid our qualms, quarrels and quandaries for Boyhood because just because it was, you know, filmed throughout time, you don't get praised for that, at least in our house. Because what's the substance, what's the core, what's the storyline.

22:15KT: That's more what we're interested in. Like you can, you can de-age or re age a Patricia Arquette or an Ethan Hawke, but it's not going to like, it doesn't add anything to, to the actual resonance of the film. And that's kind of how I felt with the camera sort of worked because for me, and even after watching the first one, you didn't seem to notice it and you didn't seem to notice it.

22:37KT: Cause I thought if we had watched the original ORP. Then we watched Orphan: First Kill. I was like, okay, Oti's gonna see it, Oti's gonna see it. Like even the first time that we introduced to her is in that dark room of all the lights. Like they were trying to make it so clear to, to make it not clear that she's grown older. Right.

22:56Oti: I see what you mean. But every time you tried to point it out, I was like, huh I just did not see it. I did it didn't bother me, them having an overcast sort of shot. Didn't bother me to show the scale of how tiny she is. Didn't bother me. I'm like fine. Show me at least. I know what you're trying to. I understand the message. It doesn't bother me. It doesn't take me away from the storyline.

23:23KT: Okay. I think that's was the storyline? Same thing minus.

23:31Oti: I, I just thought it did not distract or it wasn't so much it wasn't over down to a point where I thought, oh shit, I'm actually noticing because first time watch, I didn't notice it. Even the second time you had to put it out for me to be like, oh, oh, That's what they're doing. I think it's just from years of, of enjoying my, my, my, my Hollywood and Bollywood effects

23:56KT: as you What is reality?

23:59Oti: What is reality anymore?

24:01KT: Fair enough. Um, the, I think watching, watching the prequel, watching Orphan: First Kill, um, what it did, it just bolstered my appreciation for the first one, because you see so many, like the paintings, you know, the, the hidden messages, the hidden layers with the lighting and the paintings, um, her suppressing her breasts, cuz I don't think I even remembered that from like the watches we had earlier.

24:27KT: Like there's so. Echoing, you know, from the original into the prequel, but again, that's more praise on the foundation and the bolstering of quality or the layering of seasoning, um, in the original Orphan. But let's get into the actual themes that I have. And then we can go to like other characters as well.

24:46KT: I wanna talk about Esther. As a character and I guess her sort of evolution or her trajectory, um, as a character. Okay. Because I think, you know, I, I've kind of already alluded to it. I think the presence of the prequel kind of waters down, you know, the, the solid character that we had in the initial film.

25:07Oti: oh, waters down.

25:10KT: Like, I, I don't know. I think part of what, what I really enjoy in, in my opinion, um, would be what makes Orphan work is the fact that, you know, E whether, you know, Esther is a grown woman or not, she's very serious, right? She's very about her mission and her plan and what she's about to do. I didn't feel like, like, I didn't feel like the.

25:36KT: Sort of lightheartedness that they try to inject kind of when I was talking about like The Black Phone as well, like with daddy Hawke, trying to make a joke about salt and pepper on the eggs, right? Like it, it wa it didn't afford for that sort of levity. And the funny moments in Orphan were like uncomfortable moments.

25:55KT: Um, and you know, even to draw parallel, you. Um, it was Esther with Daniel when she was trying to, you know, she went on a recon mission. She was trying to find out how much Daniel knew, what did he see? And she's like, I'll cut this little prick off. If you say anything. Right. Yeah. That worked like that worked really well.

26:13KT: And then in Orphan: First Kill, I think it was to one of Gunnar's friends. She made some sort of lewd comment about maybe not cutting off a Dick or something like that. And to me it felt so out of place because it wasn't afforded in that moment. And, you know, even if we talk about her going on a joy ride in Orphan: First Kill, you know, with her and her lipstick on trying to feel, you know, her Thelma & Louise fantasy, like.

26:40KT: For me the tone or at least the, the, the sort of pace of the film. It didn't really afford for that. And even her with the lipstick in the car, it did nothing for me, unless she's trying to channel Margot Robbie's Barbie. I don't know. Like for me it didn't make sense. Um, and it really, I go back to Don Mancini it's like, you know, like the.

27:02KT: The Bride of Chucky, Seed of Chucky, like those beautiful, beautiful, beautiful films where you can to make a shift. Um, but sometimes it just doesn't work. And for me, the payoff didn't work with Esther's character, um, in the prequel

27:18Oti: interesting trail of thought. I, I just, I, I, it didn't water down EST as a character for me because whatever Orphan founded the roots were already so deeply grounded, at least in me. Okay. That. Whatever prequel that they would do would never detach anything from Esther as a character. So I went in fully knowing what Esther is and what to expect and trying to understand how she got that way.

27:45Oti: So seeing, or at least them trying to layer out whatever it is that happened to her, or to get to that point and her interactions with sort of the first family. In America and how all that went down. I just, I just think a part of me appreciated that sort of sentiment. Okay. That I, I wouldn't think that, oh, this, this didn't fit in this sort of point of storyline because Hey, I've seen her do so much, so much bad stuff in Orphan that anything that comes before I'm like, yeah, but it makes sense.

28:19KT: It makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Like if that's her final form, then anything she did before that it's like sure. Fine. It's interesting. So I think maybe, maybe you just let this film be whatever it was and you just let Esther be whatever she.

28:37Oti: And I think part of it's more because of what work they put in in Orphan and how much it, I enjoyed it,

28:45KT: but can we also point something out? You also made a comment saying it's not gonna tarnish how you feel about the original. Yeah. So that's exactly it, but for me, it's like, why does it need to be there then? And if it doesn't matter, why is it here? Do you see what I'm

29:02Oti: saying? I see. I see.

29:03KT: But I like it's, it's interesting. And, and it's nice that you let characters be characters, but then why were you so frustrated at Goro in the Mortal Kombat, sorry to hurt your feelings, but

29:15Oti: you just don't bring, bring people from off the field, you know, that didn't fucking exist anywhere to come. Nah, nah, I'm not even quite cause that's a

29:24KT: It's not the same, the same. It's not the same. Okay.

29:27Oti: is real, man. The pain is

29:29KT: Just to go back on what you were saying, um, about like the tonality and that sort of thing, like you said, you're fine with it or it doesn't bother you. I don't know if it's about this film specifically, but it's exactly why, uh, and friends and lovers, our first episode, can you believe was Black Panther?

29:46KT: Wakanda accent is that? we do love Forest Whitaker. Just know that going in, if you haven't listened to that episode. Um, but it's, it's kind of the. The qualm that I have with Black Panther, as well as Marvel sort of films in general, but Black Panther specifically, because they were trying to have these jokey jokes and then have like real world conversations about slavery.

30:09KT: You know what I mean? So for me, obviously not to the level of slavery, even though with orphanages, it's not necessarily, you know, um, skipping through a meadow with Edward, from Twilight. Um, but yeah, I just like tonally, it didn't work for me. In the second film, but again, like, I don't know, like I, I, wasn't going to be pleased either way. I'm not throwing my hanky into the crowd anytime soon.

30:37Oti: that's good to know.

30:38KT: Uh, my next theme, uh, go and watch Rap Sh!t, friends and lovers. We're about to cover it is called Seduce.

30:47Oti: Scheme, I must spend this cream,

30:50KT: put his face in the crack, like a Fe I called the Seduce and Scheme because Esther. So, you know, what I think is so interesting. I really thought we could have actually now, while we're talking, I think a prequel could have worked.

31:05KT: But maybe not just focusing on her first kill, maybe just seeing her trajectory, like, you know, as a long time fan of Criminal Minds and best friend to Aisha Tyler, like you talk, like they talk about unsubs and how they work up to, you know, whatever their end goal is. Like, if they hate their girlfriend.

31:25KT: They're going to start killing people that look like their girlfriend and work up to it. Right. Or, you know, they escalate their sinister sort of the ways they kill how they kill the frequency of their killing and that sort of thing. Because as far as we understand, you know, Esther's been running this long con for like decades now, right?

31:46KT: And, you know, at first it started off as, you know, just the way to survive. Right. She would implant herself as a runaway steal money from them and skip. Right. Yeah. But then she got to a point where, and maybe I'm, I reckon it had to do with like her sexual sort of evolution. Right? Like at some point you need to stop playing like the kid and you need to go out and get yours friends and lovers.

32:12Oti: Yeah. Cause maybe she got that Bill Murphy view of, of one of the parents doing it. And she's like, yeah, I, I gotta get some of that.

32:20KT: F Is for Family, friends, and love is beautiful. Wonderful Netflix, um, show go and check it out if you haven't already. But you know, like maybe that's where she actually attempted to seduce the husband,

32:32Oti: Mm.

32:33KT: but I don't know. I feel like those that would be ready to be seduced by her. You wouldn't want them, right? They were the ones that would need to. They're the ones that will need to register themselves when they move to a new area, right?

32:45Oti: Oh, for sure.

32:47KT: they would be best friends with, um, Jesus from The Jesus Rolls in Lebowski

32:52Oti: Oh yeah, yeah. Good. That was wondering where you're going with that. Good. Yeah.

32:56KT: Hey, we're not talking about the alternate pages of the holy text. We're not doing that. At least not today. That's interesting to me, that's compelling to me because you, you see the, the escalation and the urgency and the, the changing sort of needs of her. It's not just, I need to survive. So I'm gonna Rob this family and disappear. It's I need to get some, I need, I need this daddy to break me off. Like. I need to start knocking boots, like just,

33:30Oti: yeah. On, on the weird thing is, you know, how, how initial plan of. You know, get again, getting some money and moving on. We probably walk for her throughout her fucking lifetime. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's wild that, okay. So she gets to want to be part of the family and have this sort of relationship with her husband.

33:50KT: Yeah. I don't even think she likes the kids cause the kids also fucking go. Right. So it's just how fun to see that it's her and the husband. And that's it actually, no, actually I do have a big, big, big, big, positive for Orphan: First Kill.

34:05Oti: All right. All right. Say, say

34:07KT: with Tricia, there was a couple of moments and there's a couple of dialogue as well because Kate didn't necessarily get her delicious sort of moment, but Tricia was like, I'm gonna leave you now and I'm gonna go up there and fuck my husband. Um, and also, yes, it's sad, but also Esther is a motherfucker, um, or a daddy fucker is what she's hoping to do. Um, but you know, Tricia was like, you are so pathetic. You are trying to be with this man and they never want to be with

34:43KT: oh, I loved it. I was like, whoa, this feels like Gerri calling Roman little worm.

34:48Oti: Wow. Don't

34:52KT: worry about my sub genre.

34:54Oti: No worries.

34:55KT: these thoughts started to invade me when LL Cool J bestowed my two bet breast. It all went downhill from there friends and lovers. Um, but no, that, see, so there you go. I can give some positives, um, for the prequel, but, um, I, I really see, even that seems more interesting to me cuz it's like she was in a mental institution. She killed people to escape big whoop, like that makes. Like there's nothing like nothing, nothing found nothing, ventured, nothing gained, um, in that particular instance, but the, the seducing and the scheming was very interesting.

35:35KT: What did you think about the final scene in Orphan: First Kill, where she was like burning down the building? Like she, like, it was all wrapped. There was no way this was gonna be salvaged.

35:43Oti: Yeah. Like she knows when she's not gonna win, at least there's that, you know, you know, when to cut him.

35:50KT: So if she was really off it, she'd be like, oh, we can still make this work. Please come and be with me. Now. As soon as she saw Tricia's dead and Allen was there saving. Instead of Tricia I'm like, that was the biggest mistake you've ever made. I was like, oh man. But when she, when he saw her, it was like, yeah, yeah. What the fuck is going on here? wild. It

36:18Oti: wild. It was wild. And I enjoyed it because, you know, Esther has to, she, she goes through all those rejections and disappointments and I think it makes. Even more ruthless the next family, she goes to each rejection just gives her that extra that she needs to, to take out on.

36:35KT: You do you see how that's a more interesting story?

36:38Oti: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I see that. I see that

36:40KT: Because like, you know, um, I, I'm not necessarily the sort of person being like, it should be this way. It should be that way. Because at the end of the day, they make the film, they want, you know, networks interfering or otherwise, but you know, the film is made the way that it's made.

36:55KT: So it's whether I enjoy it or not, it's like, this needs to be this way, then I'm gonna love it. Right. Like, and, and, you know, it's, it's like, I'm not just gonna be like, you have to have this haircut or I'm never gonna love you. You know what I mean? Like it is what it is. Right. But also at the same time, I should also be grateful for moments of films that I enjoy because I didn't hate Orphan: First Kill.

37:18KT: Um, there was a. Befuddlement, but it wasn't as if I hated the experience. I, I definitely enjoyed it. And I just wanna talk about a film that I didn't necessarily care for. And again, it's moments like this, that bring it back to a perspective, because as much as I do have my grumbles about Orphan: First Kill it, wasn't like I, Identity, the John Cusack and Ray Liotta film.

37:41Oti: oh,

37:43KT: I feel like the core part of the film is the spoiler. So I'm not going to mention what it is, but that film, friends and lovers, our DMS are always, always open, but I need to have a conversation if you've watched Identity with John Cusack and Mmm. Rest in love and peace and power Ray Liotta. Please. I need to have some dialogue around it. Let's move on to the next theme. I have professional help because I actually think it's quite cool. And it was in both films that there were health professionals.

38:17Oti: And the weird thing is because in and Orphan in the original Orphan Dr. Browning doesn't see anything past Esther. Like she just, oh, she's fine. But I think there's a little, few things here and there that, you

38:29KT: I think, but you need to remember, she's a grown woman,

38:31Oti: Yeah. Yeah. She

38:32KT: so she's gaming the game,

38:34Oti: and, and Orphan: First Kill, the psychiatrist will like seeing through all that. She was like me, she's very, very intelligent. She's giving an aura. Adult she's giving Z energy, you know, but

38:47KT: fair, she was like right out of the gate. So I guess that makes

38:51Oti: Yeah I guess, I guess you stumble and you learn your way to, you know, uh, to trick, uh, the professionals. So, yeah,

38:57KT: but you are right. You're absolutely right. Um, Dr. Segar in Orphan: First Kill, like there was nothing, she, she there's nothing like you couldn't trick her.

39:07Oti: was seeing all of it. She was not buying anything.

39:10KT: No, she was. Um, but I guess the presence of them and I, you know, without meaning to The Sixth Sense as well, you know, like it, it's interesting and also Identity as well. Actually I friends and lovers watch out for my compiled top 10 lists of psychiatric professional help in horror. Right off the bat. There's like four examples right there. Um, the last theme that I have is record keeping In both films.

39:41Oti: Well, to be fair, um, Esther is, is, is a good schemer. So she go out papers from Russia. Yeah, she needs some work on that. Well then again, anyone that would, would work on, we don't want to see in the movie, you know? So, uh, so all her documents are really there.

40:04KT: Orphanage have really little information on her, her. Mm-hmm

40:07Oti: not, you know, the documents are in Saarne Institute and a lot of people died there as well. So I can, I can excuse the fact that the paper trail is thin,

40:17KT: but what I, okay. So if we're coming back to the sequel, even if you didn't work that the time, cause she kind of killed everyone in the Institute. Like doesn't that become like folk folklore at that point? Actually. No, cause it was just two years later, if you work at a mental institution and you heard that there was a massacre there two years ago, wouldn't you happen to know who cause even before they emailed the picture. Cause again, we're talking about like getting towards the 2010s.

40:48KT: So I guess it's like the version of like dial up, trying to load one picture. Right. Even if you didn't know what she looked like. If there's some sort of kid like, come on, like at that point,

40:59Oti: I guess maybe, maybe, but I think that would just be pulling its strings for the sake of it. Cause you don't know whether or not that person is called a wrong number or whether someone's just confused somewhere.

41:12KT: So They're talking about a kid that they adopted. And I think at that point she also had the book saying Saarne Institute,

41:17Oti: but that could be, I don't know. I just, I feel like that would just be pulling at strings. I, I, I see what you're saying. I just don't agree that that's a, a qualm that I can have.

41:28KT: Okay. All right. Well, that's fine. It's just like, cuz you know, it's like when you go to like buy a house and I, I think in some cases it's not even legal, like it's not, it's not a legal obligation to say that someone died in the house or was murdered in the house.

41:42Oti: Yeah. I don't think it's a legal requirement.

41:44KT: Well, either way, like, you know, if, especially if you're applying to work at a mental Institute, wouldn't you wanna know that there was a massacre two years before.

41:54Oti: I think that should be when you Google the place. That should be the

41:59KT: that

41:59Oti: should be the thing everywhere.

42:00KT: That's a very bloody rug if they swept it under that. Yeah. But I, I don't know. Like, I , like, I just think of like Archer talking about people coming all around the country to look at the shoes. Like we don't

42:13Oti: know,

42:14KT: like we don't know what the state of affairs is or the, the job market is in Estonia. So maybe it's just a matter of, you know, working the jobs that are available.

42:25Oti: Fair enough.

42:26KT: Who who thank you, friends and lovers for joining us another week in the For Your Reference household, uh, before we finish off, uh, Oti, back to Don Cheeto's Wikipedia, um, there were there's talks of potentially a trilogy if the prequel is successful, which I guess time will tell, you know, you would've heard the stats earlier. So I, I guess time will tell, um, thoughts, feelings.

42:52Oti: um, gay man, a lave as a character. Why fucking know interesting. Mm-hmm

42:58KT: okay. We're gonna finish off in the segment. We call For Your Reference. Oti.

43:03Oti: I'm gonna reference The Boy. Brahms brings all the handies to the yard.

43:09KT: okay. Well, that's, that's an interesting reference because we both really didn't like The Boy II.

43:15Oti: I just said, I just said The Boy, I did

43:17KT: yeah, but

43:18Oti: about the second one.

43:18KT: Okay. But, so, so in the world of brilliant originals and then next sequels, you are fine with Orphan: First Kill that's Orphan: First Kill is better than The Boy II

43:29Oti: 10 times, 10 times better. Okay. The Boy II, should just go in the bin. It never be looked at again. Bloody hell. That was a disaster.

43:38KT: Um, I'm gonna carry on the theme of creepy children, uh, and I'm gonna reference Sinister.

43:43Oti: Oh,

43:44KT: If you would like to see Oti's Hawks on Twitter and Instagram, we're @ForYourRefPod,

43:49Oti: Write us an email at

43:49KT: hello@fyrpodcast.com. We're also on, let me take care of you Oti podcast. If you like to leave rating and review, and we'll see you guys next week.

44:00Oti: see ya

44:01KT: ya Bye.