Okja – Consumption on a Mija scale

Full transcript of Okja – Consumption on a Mija scale.

0:00KT: Hi friends and lovers, and welcome to our Okja episode. As a special early release for patrons, we released this as a companion episode for our Parasite, which was the first episode of 2021. Patreon.com/For Your Reference. If you're welcome, enjoy the show. Animal friends and lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. We got your host, KT.

0:00Oti: And Oti.

0:00KT: Remember to pack your nonviolent petals and umbrella darts as we discuss the heartwarming film Okja. Mhmm. Mhmm.

1:03Oti: Mhmm.

1:03KT: Wow,

1:04KT: Oti. Yeah. What a hoiled of quality. Let's get into the stats. I also want to read a quote from Bong Joon-ho, and then we can carry on with the program, sir. Mhmm. We have director, also screenplay by Bong Joon-ho. We also have Jon Ronson included as credited for the screenplay. In way of listed cast, we have Tilda Swinton, Paul Dano, and Ahn Seo-hyun. Mhmm. Obviously, there is quite a interesting, in some cases, caricature cast that we have in this film, and I am excited to talk about most of them. But

1:48KT: before we get on to first impressions, you know, this film does bring a lot of themes specifically in regards to genetically modified foods. And I definitely want that to be one of the themes we talk about in this film. It did get me thinking like we did in our Reference Degustation where Miyazaki has, you know, the theme about environmentalism and not only is it clear in his filmography, he's also very vocal about it. So I did wonder whether it was just subject matter or whether Bong Joon-ho has said anything in regards to it.

2:23KT: So I just wanna read a quote from the independent.co.uk and he's quoted as saying, I think that films aren't necessarily tools to change the world. A film is just a beautiful thing in itself. However, when someone is experiencing the beauty of a film, that itself is changing the world in some aspect. Wow. Yeah. Like why do we even podcast? All we need to do is read his quotes. I I do I don't think it is controversial but I do have my thoughts in regards to meat consumption and vegetarianism and veganism

2:58KT: in regards to this film. We will get into proper detail, but I will say of just initially on the surface, I don't think it was necessarily don't eat meat because they did have chickens on the farm as well. And Mija talked about chicken stew being one of her favorites and they also consumed fish as well. So I guess I just wanna put it out there, but definitely we're gonna go into more detail. But again, Oti, wow. Wow. My glasses are raised, but my pants are down. Somehow I'm lubricating in all of my orifices and

3:31KT: I guess that's your explicit tag right there. We try to earn it very early so you know what you're getting into. Mhmm. Which tonally I wanna talk about in the film as well. But let me stop getting ahead of myself. Let me not bring Porco Rosso, my scarlet pig out. Let's start off with Oti. What were your first impressions? This came out in 2017. We were aware of it. What did you feel? Because this was the first time we've watched it. Last time we've watched it,

4:00Oti: the CGI is really good. Yeah. It's really good. Think I think Bong Joon-ho has done a really incredible job directing this.

4:00KT: Oh, have you renewed your credits for the Bong Hive?

4:00Oti: Yeah. I've always had it intact.

4:00KT: Alright.

4:00Oti: I I think that I had issues. I had issues throughout the movie and a lot of it came from me disagreeing with the sort of characters in it or some aspects that felt a bit preachy to me, which probably you would you didn't get because

4:32Oti: of what you just said before. I think it'll be interesting to go really go down into the details and see exactly what we thought about different scenes. But I really enjoyed it. I did enjoy it at a at a high level. I think it's just really, really beautiful.

4:48KT: It's really beautifully made. It is beautiful. It is definitely beautiful. It's a very beautiful story. I guess while we're still in first impressions, how does this land in regards to messaging of animals and pets that are friends, but they potentially become food? So recently we've done Babe, which is Oh, a who's highlight gotta say that. Which is a highlight of our viewing experience, but also on our podcast. It was a very fun episode. But you did come for my family for having pigs on a spit.

4:48Oti: I did. I did. And I think

5:21Oti: weirdly enough, the first half of this movie, I was really intrigued and I was really

5:21KT: Me too.

5:21Oti: I was like hooked. But then it lost me somehow. It lost me. Something that Babe didn't. Making elevating Babe higher than this, at least for me.

5:21KT: And that's where you coined the famous phrase babe wife. Mhmm.

5:41KT: I I guess going back to the messaging of animals and loving animals even though you may eat them or other animals, I I really enjoyed it. I thought it was very effective. I think it also helps to distance the fact that it wasn't an actual species known to Earth. And it wasn't actual pigs. I think it also helped with the juxtaposition of them having, you know, chickens on the farm and also having fish stew, which is one of the first scenes that we see in the film. But I think it is it is

6:19KT: very effective in its messaging and I think it's very beautifully done. So first impressions about this film, like you said, first half I was all the way in the way, you know, feeling everything that I needed to feel in this film. So let's let's get to it. You know, we've already, you know, put some touch points in how we feel on the overall style of the film. I wanna I wanna focus more on the style and also the storytelling because we'll definitely get to the characters that I would say a bit more caricatures.

6:54KT: But generally, yes, it is very beautiful. It is very ethereal, especially in the first half of the movie. I would have been absolutely fine to stay in the mountains in South Korea and never leave and just spend time with Mija and Okja and the grandpa. Like, I would have been fine. I would have loved that. I would have loved that. Staying there. You know, a lot of the time we talk about I'm not Yo Ho All The Bros as much as I do love Corleone trilogy.

7:26KT: I I do tend to gravitate to insular, you know, deeply personal stories. So the first half of this film was absolutely KT territory. Where I it didn't necessarily lose me, but where I felt my sexual avatar tentacles starting to wither was the second half of the film. And spoiler spoiler spoiler. And I guess also potentially trigger warning for those of our vegetarian and vegan friends and lovers as well. I don't have anything wrong with broadening a personal story to include, you know, social commentary

8:08KT: or general messaging. So this is specifically in regards to big corporations slapping a new label on it even though they're a bit dodging. Can I just say, if they were known for being a chemical company and out of nowhere, they're like, hey, we've got some hippie pigs along the way? Isn't that a bit questionable? Yep. I am not unfortunately,

8:29KT: I don't have a bank account in the Cayman Islands, so I don't have a lot of business savvy. But even I know you could have created like a shell company and rebrand it. I watch 30 Rock, I know about the Sheinhardt Wig Company. Like, I'm pretty sure that's how business people do it. I watched Snowfall where they showed us all the shell company and accounts and how how you can leave less of a paper trail. So but then again, I do consider

8:56KT: what do you think the audience is? Because we're looking here, we're looking at M for maturity. Really? Yeah. Well, the only time it's mature, aside from the graphic animal, you know, violence is just the the swear words. I feel like I don't know if it's Bong Joon-ho or if it's Jon Ronson, but they really like the word fuck. Like, I think they just think Americans just say fuck all the time.

8:56Oti: Probably, it's Tarantino zone.

8:56KT: Exactly, Oti Jerome Tarantino.

9:27Oti: You're welcome.

9:29KT: So what did you think? And I guess that moves into tonally. How did you feel about the film? There's the there's the very notable first and second half. But even just tonally, we have a very, you know, deeply deeply personal story with Mija and Okja, but then you have, you know, the corporations and I feel like Tilda Swinton's character as well as Jake Gyllenhaal's character, they felt very cartoonish to me.

9:29Oti: I thought they made them cartoonish

9:58Oti: for them to appeal to children. So it's really weird for me to hear you say that it's rated M because I thought it probably at best PG 13.

9:58KT: Oti gets all his information from me and he's not allowed to leave this room friends and lovers.

10:12Oti: But seriously, like it's They came off very child presenter. If it's Bloody M, then it's a mistake to have made Tilda and Jake like that. They took me away from the movie. In every fucking scene they were in Yeah. They pulled me out of. Well, it's They pulled me out of the emotion. You know, if if it was just Mija, like, let them be in the mountain in South Korea. Let them do that. Yeah. Instead of bringing these caricatures in Yeah. To ruin the whole experience whereas your target audience is M.

10:43KT: Far out. I think the moment you insert fucks uh-huh. The moment you insert fucks, your barely one dimensional caricature characters

10:53KT: should have some sort of substance to them.

10:53Oti: Oh, you know the fucks what reminding you of? Queen Sono. It pretty much had fuck in every other line. Actually, yeah. Is that a South African thing? I have no idea. Like, I don't no one bloody swears. Okay. No one swears that much.

11:11KT: But do you consider bloody a swear word?

11:11Oti: It depends on who you ask.

11:11KT: As as a as as as someone that grew up Mormon, I liked using bloody because it was the closest I could get.

11:11Oti: Oh, you'd be allowed to use bloody.

11:11KT: Well, it was kinda like Kim Peele, I said, bloody.

11:11Oti: Wow. Okay.

11:11KT: But it was it was interesting because the how superficial they were in characters

11:36KT: and their dialogue wasn't great either. It wasn't. And this this this makes it very complicated because I do love Bong Joon-ho. And in the first half, I was feeling perfection. And it it really hurts me that I even have qualms, but then what would I be if not a trusted film podcaster if I didn't air out those qualms?

12:00Oti: Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's weird because we usually talk about ratings, which I'm not gonna mention here, but to me, when everything starts at a six, then Everything starts at a six. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. And then as the movie progresses, you either add on to the experience or to the rating and then all subtract from it based on what you see and what you watch and what you feel and what you But connect

12:23Oti: wow, it's just it's it's I can't sit here and fully say that I understand the decision they took to make to go this way. Because I know they could be so much better. Like Snowpiercer was something different. You know? Tilda has acting chops for days. Tilda is her own sovereign nation. Not not not fit for that. So the writing was so comically laughable.

12:49KT: Yeah. It was very sketch pad like, it's a placeholder and we'll fill it in later

12:53KT: and put some fucks in there.

12:53Oti: It says a lot when Mija, the kid, has the best performance Yeah. In in the movie, whereas you have stars like Tilda and Jake. Yeah.

13:06KT: And, you know, I don't know if this is the right forum to bring it up, but I I do wonder I know why they do it, like, even though Tilda, like we said, is recognized as a sovereign nation in the For Your Reference space continuum about, like, recruiting or casting rather bigger names to get people to watch stuff. But again

13:06Oti: To get butts in seats.

13:06KT: Yeah. But I I don't think this is really specifically the review to bring it up in. But I guess before we move on,

13:40KT: I just wanna stay in the fucks for a couple of Shout outs to our Smoke and Mirror friends and lovers because they're South African. So if you would like to tell us whether you feel the amount of fucks in Queen Sono is accurate, please let us know. Nothing else about your fuckery, just about fucking prawns, District 9. Go and check out our District 9 episode, Friends and Lovers. But yeah, tonally,

14:06KT: it felt weird. It felt weird for me to feel so much. I think I cried twice in the first fifteen minutes.

14:06Oti: Oh, I thought you're going to say it twice in the whole movie and I was about to really

14:19Oti: object with real gusto.

14:25KT: Oh, man. I said it in our in our exclusive Patreon Reference Plus. There's a Venn diagram of just the weight of the world on me and also me getting older. I just cry at everything now.

14:25Oti: Your Venn diagram was a perfect circle, mate.

14:25KT: And we do love my circles, don't we Oti?

14:25Oti: Mhmm.

14:25KT: Yeah. I I felt so much. Like, I felt so emotionally attached to this film. I I I was very abhorrent at the fact that we're going to America, non Eddie Murphy trademark edition,

15:05KT: because I didn't care. I didn't care to even have that. And later on, we'll talk about Steven Yeun's character and the betrayal, ultimate betrayal. He was worse than he was in Burning, just based on that one decision. Go and check out our Burning episode, friends But and yeah, I felt it's weird for me to feel a lot so strongly at the start of the film. And then I I still felt, but I guess the first half were like sad heartwarming tears. And then the last half were like rage tears.

15:44KT: I guess while we're still in this, do you

15:47KT: did you ever watch Dumbo?

15:47Oti: I grew up on it. Dumbo and Rupert the what was it? Rupert the bear? I'm not sure. It's trinketoon but yeah. Pretty much back to back. It was airing back to back in Kenya.

15:59KT: Was it a light touch on animal exploitation

16:01KT: or

16:01Oti: Oh, I can't even remember any exploitation on Dumbo. I just remember having fun.

16:01KT: I remember it scarred me. I also remembered as a kid,

16:10KT: I refused to go to the circus with my family. And we're all fucking poor, so it's not like I had to I had an option to go anywhere else. Wow. It was either I go to the circus or that's it for the rest of the year. And I didn't wanna go there because the thought of an elephant that exists nowhere and shouldn't exist in Australia being in a little tent, like, it just it rattled me. I obviously you know, we've talked a lot and you can hear it in our podcast. I

16:39KT: I'm not comfortable with human suffering, you know, in a TV show, in a film. Obviously, I'm a bit more primed for it in a documentary. But when it comes to animal suffering, like visually showing it and I can hear the sounds of animal suffering, whether it's fictitious or not, that really gets to me. And a lot of that happened in this film and that was kind of the last half. But yeah, I I don't I don't know. Like, I I get that it was necessary, but at the same time,

17:12KT: I did feel like it took me out of where I wanted to stay. Okay. Well, since we said that we love and we were emotionally engaged in the first half of the film, let's talk about Mija. Mhmm. As as far as we know, her parents passed away. I don't think we know anything past that. And she lives with her grandfather in the mountains. And she's been with Okja, as we learn later on in the film, since she was four years old. Mhmm. Shit. According to my Oti non official abacus,

17:44KT: that means she would have been 14 in the film. That is a lot of strength from a 14 year old. Good for her. Good for her. And she didn't have to steal Ashitaka's bridal jewel dagger. Go and check out our Princess Mononoke episode. But let's let's talk a bit about Mija as a character and I guess her whole journey through this film as well. She's everything good about this movie. Absolutely.

18:12Oti: Absolutely. And we buy into her character and her bond with Okja pretty quickly and pretty you know, you can see the relationship, can see the bond, you can see how much she cares. Yeah. And the aspects of her like, you know, when she was fishing, she took one fish, what she needed. Yeah. And then those tiny baby fish Yeah. Got caught in the in the splash.

18:12KT: You have tiny fish in Kenya.

18:12Oti: What tiny fish?

18:12KT: They're like dried up in a packet.

18:12Oti: Omena?

18:12KT: Yeah. Like little guppies.

18:12Oti: They're not guppies.

18:46Oti: But yeah, it's a it's a it's a Luo delicacy.

18:49KT: Nice.

18:50Oti: Yeah. See her putting it back so we know her whole vibe. You take what you need, you know, take care of the environment and I just appreciated the whole vibe. And then to get to see her bot interact with her granddad, you know, you can tell there's a lot of history there. You can tell how much he's had to put to raise her. Yeah. You know? He's been telling white lies throughout her whole life. We're saving money so that we can pay off the Mirando Corporation

19:17Oti: for Okja. Yep. You know, just to keep the hope going. Yep. Then when the final boots dropped and how he had to sort of reveal that what's happening to Okja, it was the most grandfather thing I've ever seen. It really was.

19:33KT: And I feel like we're at grandfather age because we're we're at an age where we understand the pure love and passion that Mija has, but we also have been in this clusterfuck of a world long enough to know that, you know, the world isn't built on dreams. And as much as Okja has become theirs, technically, Okja is still property of that terrible Mirando Corporation. And as sad as it was, it was like we understood why the grandfather did that because you're not going to crush this kid's dream. But also

20:11KT: actually, let let's go to this. Because at first I thought he didn't even try. But when he bought that gold pig, it kind of seems like he did try to appeal to them. I think he tried. He approached them at least with an offer like, can

20:26KT: we probably buy Okja?

20:26Oti: Yeah. And they came back with a flat nose. So he just thought, I'll buy her a golden pig instead. Yeah. And

20:34KT: we talked about spoilers and I I know we're going to get caught up in other discussions so I kinda wanna touch on it now. Nearing the end of the film, because we see we are still focusing on Mija, there's there's a turning point in the film and that's kind of where it lost me a bit because as as much as you said, she was there, she was taking only the fish she needed, they were only using natural resources of the land that they needed,

21:01KT: nothing more, which is a beautiful message that I think we can all impart in some sort of way, very similar to Bong Joon-ho's quote as well. But then we have it kind of feels like, you know, when we talk about Christmas movies and it's just tied into a neat little bow, how she was able to appeal to the twin.

21:22Oti: Nancy.

21:23KT: Yeah. Not a Nancy. Shout out to Orlando Jones. We also still don't like the way he was treated on American Gods set. But how did you feel about it? Because aside from the cockamamie caricatures of, you know, Tilda Swinton's character and Jake Gyllenhaal's character, we did have some real, pardon the pun, meat and bones to this story. And it kind of it didn't piss me off, but I was perturbed as to the point that Hirsch presenting the gold pig saved it all.

21:59KT: Because what I would say to that is as much as Nancy has the money, she's greedy. Right? Why not have the golden pig and the Yeah. And Okja. I'm not saying I wanted that to happen but it just be the most realistic thing. Yeah. Very unrealistic. And also because, you know, Okja is the prize of of of the industry. If anything, to sell that jerky, that would be, you know, a selling point for that. Obviously, they can lie and they've lied for ten years. But what what do you think about that specifically?

22:32KT: If Mija is a character, and I guess it's more a decision on

22:36KT: the writing or or reaching out as her arc as a character. What did you think about that?

22:36Oti: I don't know. At first, I was like, when she threw you or slid the golden pig towards Nancy, was like, she'd probably just take it and kill Okja as well, know? Yeah. It's she seemed very business oriented. Uh-huh. Bottom line, profit. She had no room for emotion. Yeah. When our friend Paul Dano was like Oh, I have I have beautiful words. I try to love all creatures. But you're an exception.

23:08Oti: I was just like piss off. Yeah. Right? I was like, cool. They're building they're building it up to be this nonsensical

23:16Oti: bottom line, don't even bring emotions into this. Business is business is business. Uh-huh. I was like, okay, cool. They've already set that up. Present the golden pig, kill Okja, sell the meat. Yeah. You have a golden, take the kid away because she's trespassing. It's your property anyway. You can just pretend and order the people that we didn't see the golden pig or whatever. Yeah. It just, it felt like it was tied too nicely again.

23:40KT: Yeah. I don't know, man. Like, that that just kind of bothered me. But it's I guess it got to the point of however I felt about it and however I would rate it was already solidified. It was just one of those things that perturbed me. Yeah.

23:40Oti: But then the argument would be, she saw she's a business woman. She just wanted Okja to be sold and she's paid above

24:02Oti: and beyond the price that Okja would have brought anyway with that bullpen pig. I'm just raising an option as as a counter argument to what we've been saying. Like Okay. It could have been that she just saw, yeah, she's spread the price above and beyond. Why not? Let her go.

24:02KT: She reminded me a bit of Lady Eboshi

24:19KT: in Princess Mononoke.

24:21Oti: So she's not totally completely heartless. At the end of the day, she has some business value.

24:21KT: That makes no sense because she was painted as the heart ass Well as bad as the father.

24:21Oti: Ethical business.

24:33KT: Ethical business. Ethics. Wow. Ethics. Wow, Oti. Welcome to the unofficial curriculum of Oti Silicon Valley. Yep. You're welcome. Wow. That is very interesting. Depending on whether the authorities come, I'll decide whether I stand by you or not. Yeah. But Mija was a great character. Literally, all I just needed her and Okja for the rest of the film and also the grandpa as well. Let's continue talking about the Mirando Corporation. We have some very interesting pals and some very famous faces that we're very attuned to. We have Moaning Myrtle Mhmm. On there.

25:19KT: Shirley Henderson, I think she yes. She's been on our podcast before with Em from Verbal Diorama for Bridget Jones. Oh. Because we haven't dabbled into Harry Potter just yet. Even though JK Rowling is the biggest Horcrux. Yes. I'll say it every time I get an opportunity. We also have Giancarlo Esposito. Mhmm. And he's fresh out of our The Boys season two episode. Mhmm. But So we have the Mirando Corporation. We also have Jake Gyllenhaal as Johnny Wilcox. So let's talk a bit about the Mirando Corporation. If you wanna talk generally about corporations

25:57KT: and how they like to sanitize things and hippie dippie stuff, feel free to do that too.

25:57Oti: I think the messaging was quite clear here or at least what the writers and the director wanted to pass through Uh-huh. Is that, big corporations, GMO food bad. That's what I got at least. No layers, just that? I I got a very heavy handed sense on how big corporations treat and act, and how we as a people should look at ways in which we consume meat products. That's what I got. Mhmm.

26:32Oti: So Mirando as a corporation stood for every other big corporation out there doing the exact same thing. A proxy. Yeah. So I'm sitting here thinking, cool, know, there are things here. There are aspects of which you can agree to, but in the end of it, it felt very heavy handed for me. It felt like, whoo, man. Even Babe took a step back and they're using an actual pig. So I'm not sure whether sympathy or at least where the messaging would have synthesized

27:05Oti: using Tilda Swinton's words to say that, oh, this is how to change behavior pretty much, you know? But didn't she love how she had her hand?

27:14KT: I don't remember the exact wording, but she was like, corporations and science synthesizing. And she put her hand together. Don't you love when people say something and they think they're really saying something?

27:27Oti: Yeah. Look at you all the time doing that. How dare you?

27:31KT: How dare you gaze upon my countenance? I haven't transfigured myself for you to gaze on my countenance. Go and check out our Prince of Egypt episode, friends and lovers. But yeah, I guess that also goes back to our qualms with the tone of it. It felt like if I could make an Archer reference, the serial modulator was turned super extreme at the start because I wouldn't, because I am in the Bong Hive, I wouldn't go all the way to say it was heavy handed, but it was very clear that they were trying to show

28:02KT: a very fake image. Even though we didn't know anything about it, it just looked too perfect. Tilda Swinton's character, Lucy, just felt too perfect and they were screaming love and animals and sustainability. That's a very big thing, you know, to trying to reduce carbon emissions by 20 well, what is time? Right? But it felt very fake. Like, felt very fake. So I knew that there was going to be some deep underbelly, if you'll pardon the pun.

28:02Oti: Well, very fake because

28:35Oti: Tilda Swinton is Mirando, you know. Nancy and Lucy are characters bringing this corporation to life and the lackeys that they have bringing nothing. You know, Esposito is just the same character we've always known from any other show or movie. Like, he is two timing, he'll betray you, he'll do whatever. Mhmm. You can't trust him as far I as was waiting for him to just knock everyone out. But it's it's weird that they went with that direction portraying Mirando like this with his caricatures

29:08Oti: and not give it an aspect of seriousness, which would have brought a deeper meaning at least to me. Because as as as soon as anyone from Mirando popped up on the screen, I was like, they're just pretty much trying to be funny or trying to make kids laugh or whatever the fuck they were trying to do without writing.

29:08KT: Well, think if they're not gonna add layers to corporations

29:29KT: are evil, The man is sucking all of our milk tits. Right? If that if they were going to give us more detail, then show them. But it just reaffirmed the milk tits every time we saw them. Yeah.

29:29Oti: And then then there's Jake Gyllenhaal's

29:45Oti: character, Johnny Wilcox. Sounds very all American. Is that the term? Yeah. He was he was down to a 100 throughout the whole show. Yeah. And

29:56Oti: other star, he kept on saying how much he loved animals, but we see nothing of it. Yeah. You know, he he you you try they try to maybe paint it as if it's it's it's a constant battle between him being trapped in a corporation or in a job that he doesn't love and things that he needed to do that he didn't really feel like doing them. But it didn't come across like that. It just came across as someone who's pretending to himself that he cares or he's just throwing fucking tantrums

30:21Oti: for for the sake of tantrums. Yeah. When when Okja was being put ready to mate. Yep. He kept on saying how much he loved animals but I saw nothing of it. I'm an animal lover I think because what he said through faux crocodile tears. Like throughout the whole movie, there's nothing in his actions

30:40Oti: that portray that at all. Quite to the contrary, it's just about fame and money for him.

30:40KT: It was a fucking Ephialtes, he just wanted attention.

30:40Oti: Exactly. Exactly. So this whole battle between himself and trying to say, oh, I love animals. I'm buying it, sir. It never came across. Yeah. Those are just words me.

30:40KT: Well, even when he was talking about when they met Okja, when he met Okja for the first time, all he was doing was, you know, bemoaning about how they had to climb that mountain. How funny was it when the, like, regional

31:13KT: dwigged street manager in South Korea, he came up the stairs and he's like, oh, yeah. They're on their way. And then you have them all coming up and sweating and struggling to get up the mountain. But then when Johnny Wilcox sees Okja for the first time or even just addresses Mija and the grandfather, he complains about the fact that he had to get there and how they made him go all the way there when the one in Japan was five minutes from the airport. And it's like, if you actually cared

31:44KT: about the, you know, conservation of these made up animals, then you would care more. Right? And there's a part of me that feels like he was aware of, you know, the artificial

31:55KT: creations of them anyway.

31:55Oti: Yeah. Because he's responsible for extracting meat from them rather painfully. Yeah. So it's it's I just didn't buy his character at all. He was annoying. He took me out of the movie and may if he wasn't there, maybe I would have enjoyed it a bit more, but I don't know.

31:55KT: But it is it was a weird device. Right? Because

32:20KT: to have him so cockamamie, it made no sense to have such a beautiful

32:25KT: story between Mija and Okja. Like, how can those worlds exist? And obviously, they couldn't. That's why it felt so jarring.

32:25Oti: Like, give him give him like, this movie missed character development of any sort. Like, I I don't don't know if I can sit here and say,

32:39Oti: you know, when you're writing a story then by the end of it, nothing's changed. Actually, yeah. Nothing's changed. Maybe the ALF movement, but that would be the only thing. No. It's pretty much they've been doing that all along. They've not developed. How dare you? Nothing's happened to any character that we can see at the end of it. They're better for it. Or they've reached a milestone or a turning point. Or they've had any sort of epiphany.

33:02Oti: Nothing.

33:02KT: Well, I would raise you the character Kim who's played by Choi Woo-sik, our truck driver on behalf of Mirando in South Korea and then he joins the ALF movement. He has the most character development in this film and we fucking love him. He's barely on screen for five minutes. How dare you? But I I picked up his side profile. Can I just say? Yeah. You did. You did. I shouldn't be this proud but Steve Holt.

33:27Oti: No. It's just weird seeing a story that has no movement. Nothing. Yeah. It's it's weird. It's weird experiencing. And especially knowing Bong Joon-ho's body of work. Yeah. It feels like a missed bloody opportunity, man. It really does.

33:42KT: Yeah. I I I do agree with you silently, but publicly, I'm part of the Bong Hive. So

33:51Oti: yeah. I know. I know. But I do agree. Because if you compare it to Babe, we had the we had the farmer. We're just the farmer. Yeah. We've seen his life cycle. We've seen the journey he's had to go through Uh-huh. To be where he is at the end of the movie. We've bought into it, we've gone through the emotions and and the growth together. Uh-huh. What have we gone through with this? Apart from feeling emotional for Mija, there's nothing else. Story wise at least. At least the CGI is impressive.

34:20Oti: Yes. So it's a looker. But then at the end of it, if it's just the CGI and feeling emotional, then if if the if the message wasn't to be preachy, if the message wasn't meat is bad, be vegetarians

34:32Oti: or be vegan.

34:32KT: But I don't think it was preachy in that.

34:32Oti: Cool. I'm saying if that's not the message, then what is?

34:32KT: To be conscious of your meat consumption. To be aware that even if you do continue to consume meat, just be aware of how it got to your plate. Because in that same interview, Bong Joon-ho pretty much made the same sentiments and he was saying, if people were conscious of where their meat came from and what it took for that meat to get onto your plate,

34:59KT: you know, there would be a drastic decline in regular meat consumption. So it's not getting rid of it. It's just being more conscious of it. Okay. Cool. Okay. Let's move on to the other side of the coin of corporations. I wanna talk about the Animal Liberation Front, which according to let me pull one of my glasses up, is an actual

35:20KT: organization Oti.

35:20Oti: Mhmm. Mhmm. Okay. That's shocking then. Yeah. With the same purpose and the same name. So is that a company called Mirando?

35:20KT: Are

35:31KT: you questioning everything? Are we in the Oti matrix?

35:34Oti: It's very directed then, doesn't it? If if if there's an actual corporation called ALF and we know its objectives, then we have this monster corporation. Probably they're targeting a similar corporation by a similar name? I don't know. It feels it feels like it's targeted if if that's an actual thing.

35:52KT: I don't necessarily think it's to the level of Nausicaa being endorsed by WWF. I think it's just, you know, maybe they just wanted to give a nod to the ALF. Who knows? Maybe so. Maybe so. But let's let's focus inside of the film. We have Paul Dano. We have Steven Yeun. We also have Lily Collins. I was trying to figure out what her name was. Yeah.

36:18KT: Because I I feel like I've seen her and stuff, but then it's one of those where you're not sure. Because if you see Steve Buscemi, you know you've definitely seen him in something. But let's talk about the ALF as a part of this film. They follow a very specific creed.

36:35Oti: Uh-huh. So there's this set of rules that they want to adhere to at least our at least our jade trust to enforce. Uh-huh. So they go around rescuing or freeing animals, which is a very noble cause. Where you said you had the biggest comment, I think that's where you actually paused the movie was when they were running away from the police, they've just rescued Okja for the first time. And Steven Yeun's character

37:02KT: Yep. Okay. Not K either.

37:04Oti: He mistranslated and said that she'd accepted to go along with the plan which was Knowingly. And then we see Paul Dano's character just simply lose it when he finds out. Something that I that that's the only moment in the movie I chuckled. When he went and beat up Steven Yeun.

37:23KT: Was like, Paul. It was I think it was his redemption arc from Hugh Jackman beating him up in Prisoners. Yeah. Pretty much. It

37:31Oti: came around

37:32KT: full circle. I did I did like it because leading up to that moment, it did inform that Jay, for lack of better word, was righteous to the tenet of ALF. And he wanted to keep it and endorse it. Even I think right before moments before Paul Dano's Prisoners redemption arc section on Steven Yeun, You know, there's a moment where he tells Silver to potentially fuck off Succession style, go and do it, but don't do it in our holy name of ALF. Right? But it it was interesting to have that dimension to this and

38:15KT: in the scheme of the story, they were needed for her to go back because, you know, like you said, I was ready to turn off the movie, but you said to me, even if, you know, Mija does go back with Okja, they will keep coming for them. Yep. So they needed to find a permanent way to be left alone. True. But also at the same time, you know, the the whole mating scene that you mentioned, that was that was horrible and that was terrible.

38:43KT: And I guess it it really gets to the precipice of almost too far. Right? Of as much as through the vehicle of the film, but also us consuming what we're seeing in the film of you kinda need to face it. Right? Whether it's literally visually or just the facts of what happens to animals. So so that was interesting. I liked having them as an element in the film. But I also I also like the fact that Jay was very compassionate in regards to Mija. And I do genuinely believe that if K had translated correctly,

39:22KT: they would have taken Mija and Okja back. Or what do you think?

39:22Oti: Yeah. They would have taken her back but for how long? How long would that freedom last?

39:22KT: But that's not what I I'm saying for the the nobility

39:34KT: of ALF.

39:34Oti: Yeah. They would have. Yeah. Agree with you completely. Paul Dano would have been like, yeah, we're going back. Yeah. But then again, they were being trailed by police. So I'm not sure how far they would have gotten. True.

39:47KT: But then they did give up easily. It wasn't as if they could have finagled their way out. And I guess K's character is also, you know, a cautionary tale for me. Because if you ever put if you ever tattoo my name on you, then I know you've done something wrong. Just like, who the fuck gets translation

40:08KT: as sacred on their job?

40:11KT: So I know if you ever try and do something in tribute to me, then you fucked up.

40:11Oti: Mhmm. I'll do that soon enough.

40:11KT: Oh, so you so you schedule your fuck ups?

40:11Oti: Yep.

40:11KT: How organized of you, Oti?

40:11Oti: I am. I've I've learned from the best.

40:11KT: Don't see me, Randall. Just like I schedule my breakdowns. We all know, especially in the world of activism, even if you start, you know, coloring in between the lines, even if you follow the protocols, sometimes you're not getting the attention

40:45KT: that you need. So that's when we get the moment where they do rescue Okja officially and and long term wise, but then it's also when they're showing the footage of Okja being, you know, mistreated. Abused is the actual word. Yeah. Professor Oti, I'm not sure how much you wanna spend on this particular discourse, but because it is introduced into the film and it is pretty much a throwaway line to justify all of the lies wrapped up in branding and marketing for the Mirando Corporation. I wanted to talk a bit about GM Foods because

41:24KT: it does exist beyond meat as well. So I'm not sure which realms you want to entertain,

41:31KT: but I just wanted to dabble it out there.

41:31Oti: So they created this hybrid of an animal, a living organism, and then only for the sole purpose to kill it after it's been fun enough. Yeah. I'm not for that. Like, at least I've read that people can now produce steak, a piece of an animal in a lab. You don't have to bring the whole creature to life. It can just Yeah.

41:31KT: Does that creep you out?

41:31Oti: It doesn't creep me out. If it if it if it if it's done to

41:59Oti: it solves a lot of issues. Yeah. In regards to

42:03KT: agricultural crop, the costs of rearing

42:07Oti: Yeah. Steer. Yeah. It brings up it solves all of the issues and if it gets to a point where they perfect the process, it's cheaper to do, it's safer, they've done all the testing, then I don't see why not. Because then you eliminate the process of having to kill stuff Yeah. For meat.

42:07KT: Well, you you still will because they are actual meat cells, but you won't kill it on the same scale.

42:07Oti: Pretty much taking injections off an animal and recreating the DNA to come up with meat meat tissue.

42:38KT: Oh, so you don't even need the

42:38Oti: No. Actual It's meat a on petri dish steak pretty much. It's not the you're not getting a cow out of it. It's Sean getting and Nathan from Petri dish podcast. You're just pretty much getting a steak on your petri dish, which is amazing. But the process is expensive,

42:53Oti: it takes a long time and if they finesse it, that's the way forward. That's the way forward.

42:53KT: But would you take genetically modified food home to your family?

42:53Oti: I'd take the petri dish home to my family telling them no cow suffered, no lamb suffered, no whatever

43:08Oti: bloody animal you're eating out there suffered.

43:08KT: Would you would you eat a GM tilapia?

43:13Oti: Yep. I will. I will. And I'll take it home proudly and tell them that this did not suffer at all. It was made in a lab and there, bam, eat it. Think it's I'm being satisfied.

43:23KT: Nice. I I think it's interesting, you know, to see the bounds of science and innovation and how we can continue to grow on that. I I do feel though even in these early sort of twenty twenties, people still think of science and GM foods as they would in the 1990s. Right? Because a lot of the time you're already eating GM foods and it's not a scary thing. Like if you want sweeter grapes, like they have like cotton candy grapes. You can get different types of fruits or less seeds in your watermelon.

44:06Oti: Mate, you're getting grapes seasonally. You're getting grapes throughout the whole year. Where do you think that coming from? Yeah. Science, mate.

44:14KT: Like it's not some mute it's not some mutated Frankenstein motherfucker in in some lab somewhere.

44:22Oti: Yeah. I think that miss there's a big misconception around that, which I think the movie touched on a bit, but the way Nancy Mirando said it was a bit dismissal. Yeah. And both sides have a very valid fact, know, there's

44:22KT: Oh, Nancy made a very

44:40KT: vipers comment but that was very true. She was saying, sell it really cheap, they'll buy it anyway. Yeah. Yeah. But I do love a corned beef. I

44:50KT: do love some mutton flaps. Yeah. The food of and the unfortunate offcuts that get sent to my people.

44:50Oti: Yeah. Like like science can do a lot of good, you know, in in countries where there's harsh climate and harsh weather, you get crops, you get maize that can grow in harsh conditions because of bloody science. Yeah. So there's things that it has a place to play. Yeah, absolutely. And it's feeding a lot of people out there already. Mhmm.

45:17Oti: To be able to finesse the process to get your petri dish meat, I don't see why not. Just don't bring it to life. We don't need that. Just just the just the meat. That's just the tissue. Just the bloody tissue.

45:17KT: Please don't use our social accounts to sell people your GM food, Oti.

45:17Oti: They're already buying it.

45:38KT: Well, that's pretty much it that I wanted to cover today. Is there anything else you wanted to say?

45:38Oti: No. It's just such a shame that I was really expecting so much more after the first half an hour.

45:38KT: Yeah. And No. Come on. It was at least fifty minutes to an hour.

45:38Oti: Okay.

45:55Oti: Yes. Or at least once they went to America, wherever that time mark is. Because it all just fell.

45:55KT: The non Eddie Murphy trademark.

45:55Oti: Yeah. Yeah. The non Arsenio Hall trademark. Yeah. Yeah. And a story has to bloody have meaning or development.

46:08Oti: Characters, at least give them some dimensions, mate.

46:08KT: You know, I was I was feeling that it wasn't a 100% perfect in my heart or also in my head. But the moment you said that they were lacking character development, that completely blew my mind because I'm like, oh, shit. Yeah. Yeah. Because the Mirando Corporation pretty much just reset. Yeah. They're going to sell the pig sort of jerky. You know, ALF have kind of reset with the addition of Kim who got what was it? Mirandoisfucked.com. Also another tattoo I'll be watching out for you, Oti.

46:52KT: So they kind of reset, but in a good way. In a good way, they're going to reset and continue to do good out there. But you're you're you are right. I must concede you are correct. Mhmm.

47:05Oti: Yeah. Yeah. Sadly so.

47:05KT: Well, friends

47:09KT: and lovers, thank you so much for joining us on this, in some cases, tantalizing aspects of this particular movie review. It was definitely an emotional rollercoaster. And I think it was more my viewing experience as opposed to what I was seeing on the screen in some cases. Let's finish off in a segment we call For Your Reference, Oti.

47:33Oti: I will reference the same collabo in Tilda Swinton and Bong Joon-ho in Snowpiercer.

47:40KT: Oh, very nice. Mhmm. And I will reference to Oti. Mhmm. I have Princess Mononoke. We coincidentally very cutely have an episode on that. And also the standalone in Babe Lore, Babe. Babe, babe. A, babe, babe Oti. If you would like to check out Oti's a babe babes on Twitter and Instagram, we are at @ForYourRefPod. You can write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com. And we'll see you guys next week.

48:12Oti: See you. Bye.