Interview with “What Will I Become?” Co-Director, Lexie Bean & Composer Perigee Vitz-Wong

Full transcript of Interview with “What Will I Become?” Co-Director, Lexie Bean & Composer Perigee Vitz-Wong.

0:24KT: According to the American Academy of Pediatrics, more than 50% of transgender boys have c- attempted suicide. Directors Lexie and Logan travel across the United States trying to understand their own trans boyhood through the legacies of two young men, and exploring what community healing means. From the world premiere at Berlinale, winning two awards, including the Amnesty International Film Award for Best Human Rights Project Yes, we're upping it today, friends and lovers To the UK premiere at BFI Flare, named amongst top films to watch from Time Out London, Criterion Collection, PinkNews, and BuzzFeed, to top indie fests in Asia and other notable LGBT fests around Europe, just winning the Audience Award in Switzerland. In the lead up to the North American screenings in, uh, Inside Out, Canada's largest queer fest, and most recently, uh, deadCenter in Oklahoma City, I f— I feel like we're in the past/future, and I feel like it went very well, I will report. We're recording beforehand, friends and lovers. We have the g- we have the great opportunity to chat to co-director Lexie Bean, as well as composer Perigee Vitz-Wong. Lexie, Perigee, thank you so much for your time, and welcome to the For Your Reference podcast.

1:46Lexie: Thank you.

1:48KT: I want to first of all say, well, it, it's nice to hear that you're having a little bit of a break. You're, you're about to get into it. But first off, congratulations and happy Pride Month.

1:57Lexie: Mm. Happy Pride. Happy Pride Month.

2:03KT: Whee. Um, we also have, at the Sydney Film Festival, there's a queer coming of age Australian horror, um, called Leviticus, so this will be released in the same week, um, as So I guess we're feeling very prideful, uh, i- in the For Your Reference household for this particular week. Um, before we even get to the, I, I guess in, inside of the film, and the lives of Blake and Kyler as well, I guess, uh, just to get a sense of, how long it took to make this documentary, which I guess is a whole journey in and of itself. I feel like it's also important, especially for queer storytellers, to understand, I guess, how to get into film festivals, but I'm sure that's, like, a very important panel that you, y- you guys might do somewhere else. But just in general of, I guess, um, Lexie in particular talking about bringing your own experience with Logan as well. just, like, it, it being maybe a thing and then getting it all the way, you know, through the editing process to the screen as a final cut.

3:05Lexie: There were a lot of m- maybes, and there were a lot of starts. in some ways we've been working on this since 2020.

3:15KT: Mm.

3:17Lexie: In other ways, been working on this for a decade. A, a decade ago is when I first had the idea shortly after the idea for the film, shortly after my, my coming out, and after my own, like, suicide attempt. but I talked myself out of it. And Perigee, amongst other friends who I reached out to, around 2020, really helped with the accountability to make it happen, 'cause that is one of the, the challenging things about doing something that is close to lived experience, um, is that in some ways there can be even more room for self-doubt. and friendship and safe partners, like—

4:04KT: Mm-hmm

4:04Lexie: go a long way. I guess if you, you would like to share about. It's, it's been a long time, and you've made so many versions of the music.

4:10Perigee: Yeah. Yeah, and it's, um. I mean, like many good things, it, it has grown and changed so much over the years. and it, uh, it's, it's really interesting to reflect on this since Lexie and I met, in college— Mm-hmm and the, I mean, we would've known each other for maybe three years during that time, which is, like, half the amount of time that we've now been, like, working on this project after that. so yeah, it's, it's, to, to put things in perspective is, is really, really interesting, of course.

4:50KT: Mm-hmm. It was definitely made with a lot of love and, and the feeling of being held, right?

4:58Lexie: Definitely. Mm-hmm. Yeah, everyone surely arrived with their own lived experiences in certain ways, and, um, and for a lot of us it was our first film overall, so a lot of trust and—

5:12Perigee: Yeah. Yeah, and I mean, it was, like, really, really powerful to kind of keep learning how far it was going and how far it was going to keep going. And, and like, that's another part of the sort of like long development process that I think, was, was really rewarding in the end to, um— And I'm, it's, it's weird to think about, like, how, how many different times we thought it might have been released and premiered. and, and now to finally get to share it with everybody and, and to have spent that time, like, finding out how to take care of each other more and more and, and in a lot of ways putting that into the film as well.

5:59Lexie: Yeah. And I think for the topic of this film in particular related to, like, mental health and suicide, like, it is actually really interesting the ways in which time has become its own, its own character. Because often in the subject of loss and grief and death and mental health, like, time d- it doesn't feel like time is on one's side. Or time doesn't even feel possible, um, or it feels like almost like a scary thing. And so I, I, I'm grateful for the ways in which, um, time has been ultimately just a gift, if that makes sense.

6:40KT: Yeah. And i- it's, it, it's like a shift, right? This is life of life today, but life tomorrow and, and I guess the shifting and the forming of that. Um, and I guess it's one of those things of, you know, doing this podcast and interviewing, I only know how to go deep, baby. Like, I only know. I, I don't know how to talk about the weather. Like, lens is so important. Lens is so important, and I, I loved in this film that if you don't get it, if you don't get it, if you need to do some reading, do some reading because we're here. And to get here— and to feel so deeply and express so much, you know, we will put resources as well. I, I might possibly in the show notes put a trigger warning, but this is what we're talking about, right? Yeah. There was a, there was a film, like, and it was about suicide, and they reached out for us to, like, suicide in men, uh, white Well, not just white men, but white m- um, men in Australia. Um, and I started to try and talk about, you know, how, not necessarily normalized, but how a lot of people have experiences, if not themselves, but people they love, right? Yeah. And they were like, "Whoa, whoa." And that was literally the subject of the documentary. So, I, I guess what I really appreciated about this documentary is if you need to do some reading, do some reading, but this is where we are. We're not going to combat anything that you're, experiencing inside of this. This is about, you know, the lives of yourself, Lexie, as well as Logan and so many others, you know, inside— Mm of this documentary. But also you wanna ha- be protected and, and, like, how do you know that it's, it's too close? And I guess making sure that you're not, they're not mistrusting you in being able to share that. and, and I obviously you can tell it wasn't done for an exploitative sort of soundbite, but I guess there is also that balance of I need someone to pull me back out, this is getting very deep right now, or, or balancing that sort of levity, I guess. Big question. Yeah. Sorry.

8:40Lexie: Ooh. Yeah, I think I'm making a generalization right now, but I think at the end of the day, like something that Logan and I wanted to really hold true is that, uh, uh, I think people don't wanna be talked down to. Um, I, I think often in the topic of, of trans anything and also, um, when, when, uh, it comes to the topic of suicide as well, um, there can be a tendency to like kind of treat people like they're fragile or— Mm um, treat people like, This is the c- this is the conversation that could break them. but the truth is, like, it's not the conversation that's gonna break people, it's the isolation or the sensationalism that leads people to think that talking about it is impossible is the thing that's more likely to break, break anybody. so I think valuing kindness and directness has felt really healing—

9:45KT: Mm-hmm

9:45Lexie: for, mm, participants of the film. many people we interviewed along the way that we ultimately included in the film and didn't include in the film, um, would say how, like, people in their lives would be afraid to talk to them about the death of their loved one, um, because, yeah, because of this idea that, oh, people must be so, like, fragile around this topic. And, you know, peop- people were really grateful that we were willing to talk to them. Like, they were So, and to listen to them. It's really quite simple—

10:23KT: Mm

10:23Lexie: actually. and we thought about this in the context of trans things too. Like, um, there's a scene where we talk about packers, for example, and, we worked so hard to try to find a way to quickly introduce that as a concept for people— Mm who might not be familiar with that, but also not be like, "Scree." Like— "Cisgender is this. Trans is this. Packer is this." Like, are you okay? Like, like And I guess trusting the intelligence of the space. I d— I don't know. Like—

10:59KT: Yeah

11:00Lexie: you know, we're, we're very quick with it, and, um, and hopefully context and willingness is enough.

11:06KT: And I think even the intersectionality was so important as well with Jannat. I didn't wanna even talk t- too much about the film, 'cause to experience it is a whole experience. But even in that sense, uh, in Morocco, right? Like, being trans in different countries all around the world is a different experience, right? And I love that even though we were focusing, you know, we had our particular focus, there were moments and inklings of packers, for example, in that as well. And, um, there's, there's a lot of other questions I wanna go through, but Lexie, it's like y- you're following my brain. 'Cause that next question I was gonna ask was the editing process and finding that balance, because it was that pressure valve of like, "Oh, we can, we can have fun." Like, it's, it's not just, like you, you mentioned about, like talking about suicide, it's a moment. It's an important moment, but there's also joy as well, and I, I guess that's where it comes into arts and expression. There's so many creative ways, especially in regards to Kyler, of loving and respecting the privacy and honoring Kyler's life, of finding, I guess, creative ways to be able to, illustrate that. and, and art is so important, you know? Everyone says art is whatevs, but when we're having a tough day, that's exactly what we need. It's a way to express ourselves, right? so I guess through, through Blake as well as Kyler, but in, just in general of the making of the film, what was it like being able to use arts and animation and even music as well, Perigee, as an expression in this film?

12:40Lexie: Yeah. I would, if you're open to it, Perigee, I'd love to pass it, pass this to you first, 'cause I feel like, um, using music to make room for levity or the, or the ways that or, like adding, like, positive emotion while also not trying to make light of things, Was a, was a huge part of the process

13:04Perigee: Yeah

13:05Lexie: Especially the song, dedicated to Kyler in the middle.

13:08Perigee: Right. Yeah, and that was I mean, th- that song in particular was, uh, composed by, uh, uh, Mele Carring and, uh, Fiona Chenes. But, and what a joy to work with them to, to create that. and finding the way to, to I guess when, when working on that I was like, I want to make, these voices, both the, the, the, like, you know, the recorded singing as well as Kyler's voice, feel empowered. and—

13:40KT: Mm

13:41Perigee: uh, but, like, without necessarily being like, "This is a big, you know, huzzah moment," or anything like that. It, it— We're doing the

13:48KT: thing. Pay attention to the thing right now, right? Right. Feel this thing. Yeah.

13:53Perigee: Yeah, yeah. framing, framing what is happening, in a way that, yeah, to, to support both the, the, the people's voices as well as the audience. the thing we kept coming back to is, um, we don't need to put a hat on a hat. there are a lot of different, like, emotions in the film of course, and, to, to present them wasn't necessarily like the, the choice wasn't going to be make those emotions even stronger. but rather to—

14:28KT: Mm

14:28Perigee: kind of, yeah, make room for things, Yeah. It, and, and like getting to kind of like iterate a lot and, and talk about, um, all sorts of ideas and, and, how things flow together. uh, and Lexie really said it, re- uh, uh, when talking about packers and, and, and like the experience of like kind of being, uh, like—

14:57KT: Mm

14:57Perigee: seen as like experiencing a lot of like heavy, uh, emotions, but like needing to have levity to, um, be- make it okay to, to, to, to laugh. yeah. Mm-hmm.

15:10Lexie: Yeah. Yeah, the transitions you built were a big part of that, of holding people through the ability, the human ability to hold up multiple emotions.

15:20KT: Mm-hmm.

15:21Lexie: Mm. And I guess that's where I guess a lot of this comes down to in terms of intention is, and s- and trying to gently swing between levity, living resources, joy, and also the reality that like— Real loss is happening and has happened, and continues to happen

15:44KT: Mm-hmm

15:45Lexie: to hold both is, I think, to let people be h- human with that. I, I think in a lot of queer content, and trans content in particular, there's a lot of pressure to be single note, to be understood, to be,

16:03KT: Packageable?

16:04Lexie: Sellable. Packageable, yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But, a humanness can get lost in that, in that pursuit. Yeah. '

16:14KT: Cause life is messy, and we're multi-layered as well, right? And I, I think that's one of the most beautiful things about this documentary and this film, and I think even you, Lexie, mentioned it as well, of being able to live a whole life, a fuller life, um, and, and get to a particular age. And in this film, the ability to be able to have an archive with Blake in particular was such a beautiful thing because, like, like you say, grief 'Cause it is the, the life of, and you would have people interviewed about Blake that would speak in present tense as well. Yes. And there's so much presence even outside of, I guess, the Shakespeare mortal coil. Like, there, there's so much life that goes on, you know, once people have left us.

17:05Lexie: Yes. Yes. Yeah, something I thought about a lot when we were doing interviews, and will continue to think about as time continues to move in the release process, is that the footage we include of Blake, for example, and Kyler, but Blake in particular—

17:20KT: Mm

17:21Lexie: um, you know, he's, he's young. He's young. He's in high school. And in the meantime, we're meeting some of his peers who were his age,

17:35KT: Yeah

17:36Lexie: or younger when— When Blake was alive, and all the people that we interviewed have gotten older.

17:45KT: Yeah.

17:47Lexie: they don't look like exactly Blake's age anymore. and I've And just seeing that visually even when it's relatively subtle, like, is very, is very striking, and kind of acknowledges, yeah, I guess, again, the privilege of time. Yeah.

18:03KT: Yeah. Perigee, was there anything that, I guess 'cause a lot of my questions were geared towards, like, filmmaking, which I know you were also part of as well. But was there anything, I guess, throughout the journey that, I guess, caused, like, a moment to reflect and to sit with? Or was it just go, go, go? Or I, I imagine composing is a very feeling thing, y- you know. It's not just sit and do it and it's done.

18:30Perigee: Right. Yeah. It's, it's I mean, it's a lot of different things, especially this project in particular. Like, it is a narrative, but it's, you know, it's, it's, it's our, our world. It's, it's our lives. and, I'm, I'm, like, once again grateful for the amount of time we got to spend on it and h- and how much of the process I got to see from the beginning.

18:55KT: Mm

18:55Perigee: and sometimes the, just the music-making was, like, very quick because of a, an upcoming deadline or something, or just because that's what the creation was, you know, asking for. But, other times it was, like, paying attention to, like, every word that somebody was saying on screen and thinking about, like—

19:19KT: Mm

19:19Perigee: their, their perspective, their lens for it and, and, like, what music would they be making if they were, you know, writing the score, kind of. Mm. I guess, yeah, and a lot of the inspiration of, um, you know, making music for and about these, uh, two musicians, and their different worlds, very, very different worlds— Mm um, and just kind of, like, hoping that, um, you know, if they were around, they would enjoy the, the kind of music that is associated with them in, in this film. that was something I think I consciously or subconsciously kept coming back to. while also, yeah, like, learning about them mostly through this process.

20:12KT: Mm

20:13Perigee: and—

20:15KT: Mm-hmm

20:15Perigee: and yeah, and, like— And, and then every time the, uh, the film team would go and, like, record interviews in different locations. and then, uh, you know, I'd kind of hear about those, those visits after the fact and, and hear a little bit of the behi- behind the scenes. But for the most part was, like, kind of seeing it the way that an audience might see it eventually.

20:44KT: Hmm

20:44Perigee: and, and, like, yeah, learning about these, these spaces, these environments, and these people, and these emotions—

20:51KT: Mm-hmm

20:51Perigee: um, from, from the, from my studio, I guess. Yeah.

21:14Lexie: Something that's also striking to me too is both Blake and Kyler, the protagonists we spend so much time with in the film, they were both young musicians, and, um, music was definitely related to, their accountability to be alive, like related to their self-expression, related to, self-confidence, um, and life structure. Blake wanted to become a, a band director, um, and that's what he was studying before his death.

21:32KT: Mm-hmm.

21:32Lexie: Kyler, one of the only pieces of footage we have of him, is at his piano recital. which is to say it was a rare moment where he was, had an openness to be witnessed. and so I feel like that added additional layer and responsibility, and, and material, reference material for Perigee when, when thinking about, like, what music would they like and also, like, the music not just being music in a way.

22:03Perigee: Right. yeah, so the, the space that, the spaces that Blake and Kyler filled with their music, each have a very different, like, kind of vibe and experience to them. Um, and you know, the, the music that they played, uh, that we have footage of, definitely inspired some of the melodies that, I ended up putting throughout the film, various points,

22:35KT: Mm-hmm

22:36Perigee: sort of motifs. But also really just trying to, To support and, and, and like sit with, with everything, I guess, rather than, melodically drive the story or anything.

22:52KT: It's like an extension of voice, right?

22:54Perigee: Yeah.

22:55KT: And I think that's, that's one of. There are many beautiful things about this film, but it's what is, not what isn't, what's wrong with the world, what all the mean comments are, what the terrible headlines are. It's important to have that inform the documentary, but we're inside. We're, we're inside of the lens, and we're focusing on the love and warmth that's there. Um, and I guess speaking of, how has it been being able to screen it to, you know, young trans or may- maybe even older trans lives as well? what's it like being able to screen it and the Q&As? I can only imagine all the tears. Happy tears hopefully as well.

23:33Lexie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. yeah, definitely almost every screening, almost every screening that I've attended at different parts of the world, older trans men, older meaning like older than 35— Mm-hmm Have a- approached me afterwards, um And sharing about their own attempts

24:04KT: Yeah

24:06Lexie: And, there is an assumption, I think in, like, larger society and per our conversation earlier, there's an assumption that like, "Oh, that must be so heavy." But actually, n- um, that, that release or that connection is, is, is almost always, um, expresses gratitude. Um, gratitude for having this reflected, in a thoughtful way. Gratitude for not feeling alone in one of the most lonely things one can imagine.

24:40KT: Mm-hmm.

24:41Lexie: and, mm, and also I've had the experience of people who just read the synopsis or read, a, a paragraph summary of the project, saying that they have gotten something out of even that too, even if they, they, they don't see the film. I know in, in London, uh, for example, A really lovely set of queer twins, we spoke with who didn't get to see the film had a very emotional response because they r- had recently had a trans loved one die by suicide. and we ended up spending a lot of the evening with them. or also in London actually, there was one screening in particular where, someone was very audibly, exper- was very audibly experiencing emotions in the last 15 minutes, and when I spoke with that person afterwards, they a- also said thank you, and they were also like, "I'm arriving to this as a, a trans, person from the US. Away from home, and feeling so strongly about this in a way that I didn't even realize, like—

25:56KT: Mm

25:57Lexie: that's was very striking to me 'cause at that point we hadn't played in the US yet, and, um, as of this very moment, of this very conversation, we still haven't played in the US, so it's, um. I'm very curious and, and eager to see what it's like for, people at home to, to feel this and to hold this, knowing that was the response, abroad. I think the last example I'll give, which is to say, like, there's just so many examples which, which, um— And th- they will continue to happen, and, and I hold that with a lot of sense of, um, responsibility and gratitude. But I, At, at our world premiere at Berlin, the very, very, very first question we got at our very first Q&A at our very first screening was a trans person in the audience who said that they took the entire week off of work—

26:58KT: Yeah

26:58Lexie: and traveled just to see this film. And I feel like just hearing that right out the gate was like I, yeah, I, I would say me and Logan took that very seriously of being like, of, of having a deeper awareness of like— Something is, something is m- moving here.

27:18KT: Mm

27:19Lexie: or like, our sort of like love and experience, like, goes beyond what, um, I think we could even anticipate for ourselves.

27:32KT: Um— And I think even at the start of this conversation, Lexie, you talked about even 10 years ago will it become a thing in regards to the film and getting here, and I think it's one of those things of outside of— Mm-hmm the saturated social digital spaces. Like, it doesn't matter where it lands, but you need to express it. You need to create it, and it's, it's so great that there are so many queer film festivals all around the world. But in any case, in-- your story needs to be told, and you need to be able to express that. And to hear that the first Q&A, 'cause there are some terrible Q&A panels, like some people just be asking questions just to be asking questions. So for that first question to, I guess, set the tone and, and, and how it's being received to take a whole week to dedicate, and you've dedicated so much time, and th- that's how it should be received, right? At all these film festivals, I always wonder and like, ruminate with these interviews because you see these film festivals, there are a lot of people that will buy passes, they'll go watch films of so much different subject matter, and the world is worse. Like, how, how are we being given access to so many stories? And I-- for me, the best films are unfortunately the films that are at film festivals and are harder to get distribution, but they're the films where you don't grab your tote bag and your water bottle, and if you're nerdy like me, my little film notebook. You sit and let it-- you sit and let the credits roll, and then you go for a long walk and think about life. Like even trying to watch this screening with Sydney Film Festival, like obviously I'll try and fit it in on my phone and that sort of thing, but I had to sit, find some time outside of a full day, double screenings, and I'm like coming home and watching the screen 'cause I need to give it the time and attention. But that's the beauty and the love that was poured into this film. Um, Lexie and Perigee, I wanna thank you so much for your time and wrap up with our final question. I've been taking all the time. I know I was like, "Little bit of time." I took a lot of time. Um, but I do wanna wrap up with our final question. We finish off our reviews with a recommendation, so what would you pair with What Will I Become as a double feature? Usually it's a film. Sometimes people think tonally the same or like something completely different. It can be a series as well.

29:49Lexie: Ooh. Oh, I haven't thought about this. I have like an initial thought, but I feel like it's But I'm also recognizing that my impulsive thought here doesn't totally directly answer the question. W—

30:09KT: well, you can answer it— But— however you like

30:11Lexie: I would say, a FaceTime with a friend afterwards. Mm-hmm.

30:16KT: Mm. Love.

30:17Lexie: Um, because we've had several moments, uh, of screenings where people will say, "Afterwards I called my roommate and told them I love them."

30:26KT: Mm.

30:26Lexie: Like, "My son, I told them I love them." so I would say, like, double feature is, like, the f- the face of your you know, face of your loved one out of your hand.

30:36Perigee: Hmm.

30:36Lexie: Um

30:38KT: I love that, and I've never gotten that answer before. Mm.

30:44Lexie: And see, I feel like it's just the right thing.

30:48KT: Perigee, any, any other recommendations?

30:50Perigee: Uh, I'm gonna also have a, a, a, like, vaguely outside of the format response. Ooh. I would say, uh, listening to an album that you listened to a lot, uh when you were younger. and, and I guess your, your, uh, idea of FaceTiming somebody that you love, um, and this would be, uh, my response would be, like, to also, yeah, thank your, your earlier self—

31:24KT: Mm

31:25Perigee: um, for, for everything and, and use music as a way, as a, as a vehicle for that.

31:33KT: I love that, and it's, uh, obviously you don't need to share any sort of tips, but I do hope the both of you and everyone that has been loved and held in this film does have a way to debrief. and even talking about a FaceTime is also a great way to do it, because it is that push and pull. Like, there's a lot of life. I love therapy, but it's like therapy is processed in little chunks. It's not all at once. Yes. And I think the, the ability to debrief, um, is very important as well. But, um, I wanna thank you both for your time. Um, there's the Trans Lifeline that was shared in the film, but if there are any other resources, there's Minus18, which is broadly LGBT, but also caters to trans youth as well. So if there's any other resources you would like to share as well. Um, but good luck for the North American screenings, and thank you so much for your time.

32:22Lexie: Oh, my gosh.

32:23Perigee: Thank you.

32:24Lexie: Thank you so much.