Full transcript of I May Destroy You – Shock and Buskin.

0:00KT: Hey, guys. I May Destroy You is a very important show, and we are very excited to talk about it. On the show, we love Michaela Coel and the creative, generous talent that she is, but we also want to put a trigger warning on this episode. Given the nature of this show, there will be talks about rape, trauma, and consent across all genders, sexualities, and walks of life. So please join us along the journey. Understandable if you don't.

0:31KT: As I continue to find resources, we will put it in the show notes and also on our website. For Australia, there's a 1800 RESPECT hotline. I'll also add a link for a directory of organizations and resources you can tap into across Australia. In Michaela Coel's MacTaggart lecture, she also mentions The Havens in London and also The Survivors Trust. Let's get on with the show. Welcome friends and lovers to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host, KT.

0:31Oti: And Oti.

1:25KT: Join us as we explore sexual liberation for all within an established realm that only benefits some. Indeed thank you so much friends and lovers new and old for joining us on this episode today we understand that this is not easy stuff to talk about but we're also really excited to get into it. And, you know, even in the Rafiki episode, we talked about how art changes culture and how art is culture. I would also add a prefix that art is healing culture as well so this is a show that debuted in June 2020

2:09KT: it was distributed and broadcasted from BBC One in The UK HBO in America we have creator, writer and also co director Michaela Coel and directing as well we have Sam Miller he's directed you might know him 10 episodes of Luther two episodes of Black Sails, and two episodes of the Snowpiercer adapted series.

2:33Oti: Mhmm. Mhmm. He's been around. Right.

2:36KT: And the cast who I hope we will continue to see around, Michaela Coel, Weruche Opia, and Paapa Essiedu. Woo hoo. Woo hoo. Shout outs to Paapa as well for playing Hamlet.

2:36Oti: Mhmm. And we do know KT loves this Hamlet soliloquy.

2:36KT: Yeah.

2:36Oti: I I think you just love Kenneth Branagh, mate.

2:36KT: There is nothing rotten in the state of For Your Reference. I'll tell you that, Majotie. Mhmm. So like many of our TV show episodes that we cover, we tend to gravitate towards themes, especially when characters are intersecting

3:11KT: on those particular themes. Mhmm. I guess we also wanna note here that this show is spawned off Michaela Coel's experiences while she was writing season two of her show Chewing Gum, which is a great show and recommend. You should definitely watch. But also at the same time, I found myself watching a lot of interviews with Michaela Coel and also with the cast as well. And she talks about, you know, once she had it ready and she shared it with her closest friends, they started to share stories as well. So I would say that,

3:45KT: yes, this is the foundation of the show, but it's so multifaceted in its unfortunate trauma, and it really does try to stretch out and, you know, bring a light to many experiences across all different themes. Yeah. So before we completely dive into it, Oti, let's get into first impressions. We are definitely partial to a Michaela Coel in the For Your Reference household.

4:09KT: And what were your general sort of thoughts watching this show?

4:09Oti: I'm not sure what I expected because for some reason, I remember watching the trailer, but not comprehending a lot of what the show was about. It was a it was very disorienting. Yeah. So when I when we first watched the first episode, I was just sitting there thinking, oh my god. What is this? Like,

4:31Oti: was so well written. It had taken a couple of weeks for us to really get into the show Yep. Because of the backlog that we had. So it was always in our periphery. But just sitting down and watching it, we found ourselves, at least myself, just going episode after episode, having emotions and feelings that made me rightly uncomfortable.

4:54KT: Mhmm. This is the way to be uncomfortable. If this if that's your goal, this is how you do it. Yeah.

5:00Oti: And we couldn't continue just because of how heavy it was. And I think we took a break just to a few hours break just to sort of separate

5:08Oti: the gravity of it all.

5:08KT: Yeah. We tried to take a break, but we we couldn't. I think we got up to episode five. And even at that point, there was so much emotion, and we were processing or trying to process as the episodes continued. So after five episodes, we gave it a break, but we just wanted to go back. And we finished it the same day we watched it. The same day we watched it.

5:31Oti: And that just tells you how gripping the show is. And kudos to Michaela, man. She's always been creative. And the fact that she's on this bigger platform to show herself and her skills and to share her very vulnerable story with the world Yeah. Is is quite a tremendous feat.

5:31KT: Well, the interesting thing,

5:51KT: you know that Michaela was mentioning in interviews was she writes to be able to disassociate from it but also it's kind of like a double edged sword because it's also a way for her to get close to the trauma without like within her accepted sort of boundaries so she can always recoil when she needs to but she can get close enough to the trauma but she can also disassociate herself creatively as well

6:17KT: A question that I have for you is only through you know, I actually did some I I joke about I'm very facetious about my learned research, but I did actually do some research this episode. You know, there there was a lot, especially from straight men talking about how they felt that this was confronting to them, how this show was confronting. And I guess I just wanted to hear your thoughts on that. Confronting.

6:45Oti: I didn't get the sense of it being confronting because I think it all boils down to the situations we've been in in life. Mhmm. I think to me, it was wholly realizing a different aspect of I think some things I really didn't understand in my head of how things would transpire. Yep. And watching it all unfold and how it is for someone the next day was just wholly unnerving where I was like, oh, shit. I hadn't really thought too much about this. Mhmm. So not confronting per se, but it was more of a revelation

7:18Oti: than anything else.

7:20KT: Nice. So it was uncomfortable but not confronting. Mhmm. Because I think, you know, the unfortunate thing with, you know a 140 characters equaling a whole dissertation sort of review is people automatically want to take offense as well so when they read something it's like well not all men well cool well if you're not the man that this is about then you don't need to be confronted by it and it is something to consume and it gets in the way of real discovery between yourself and others and the world that surrounds us. Yeah.

8:02KT: I I just I really I love Michaela Coel and I'm so happy that we continue to see her. And she's very dutiful. She's very deliberate about the roles that she chooses. I don't think we're going to see a Robert De Niro situation or a Pacino situation where you just see a pop up and stuff just so she can be on the screens. She is very purposeful in the roles that she chooses. And, you know, if you've been following along, she like, the big headline was that she turned down a million dollar deal with Netflix.

8:35KT: Essentially, it was a dispute over her having even some semblance of rights to her work. And given the fact that this show was about exploitation, it felt very exploitative that they wanted to take her story and her not have any part of that, which actually denotes to the publishers later on that we see in the show trying to profitee on this trauma, which is a disgusting thing in and of itself. And even in Michaela Coel's experiences she was trying to figure out if she could get an extension for her deadlines

9:09KT: and she was essentially told by an insider don't even bother you're not going to get that so even after she actually was assaulted in real life. Yeah. It's more like, oh, poor you.

9:20Oti: Yeah. But when's the draft ready? When when can we read the pages?

9:20KT: Yeah. So episode one and episode two

9:28KT: mostly closely follows her experiences and being able to piece it together. So let's pretty much get into the show. The foundation of this show is the exploration afterwards of trauma and also consent. I I do like that they talk through the nuances of consent, not to say that all of it isn't bad but also at the same time there are different layers to it there are so many normalized behaviors that are not consensual but within a world where man is king it's okay and we'll talk about

10:07KT: those senses as well but as we talk about trauma and consent I did want to break it up into separate sections because even through the main characters of Bella Terry and Kwame there are viscerally different experiences that all of them have gone down and I think also something that's very interesting we have concurrent trauma bonds within this show yes we're following Bella and a very traumatic event that happens at the start of the series but that doesn't mean that trauma and also joy doesn't happen around her and I think that's also something interesting

10:44KT: to explore so let's start off with women so trauma and consent in regards to women a very poignant quote that stood out to me was something that Bella said when she was going to the support group and she said it was a voiceover and she said prior to being raped I never took much notice of being a woman. I was busy being black and poor. So I just wanted to introduce that quote as we start to talk about Bella in regards to trauma and also consent. So we do have the main story.

11:15KT: The start of the series does start to hinge on what happened and will we ever find out what happened. What I will say, I did appreciate that there was some level of resolved quite early in the show because that means, unfortunately, that there was more trauma to be had in the world of I May Destroy You. Mhmm. Michaela Coel also talks about working with the graphic designers of the show because when you have the intro title it shows I may destroy you but then you gets cancelled and she talks about I may destroy

11:51KT: is it you yourself is it someone else destroying you or is it us collectively destroying something a good thing like established systems that need to be broken and that that is something that is so great and hopefully the turn of the coin is I may heal you as well. Not the Chris Martin one. Don't come for me Coldplay. Was it not I will fix you? Yeah, know. Oh, okay. Cool. So it's a reference removed. And I I will hold that up in court.

12:25Oti: Denny Crane. Oh, wow. Alright.

12:28KT: That's enough then. I think William Shatner is enough to start and or stop harassment. But is he better than Donnie Crane? Yikes. What happened to Freddie Prinze Junior? No idea. You put us in a very real conversation. We will still find a ridiculous reference, friends and lovers. So we've got the main story of Bella. And it was very optimistic, I guess. It's it's not normally a word I would use to describe myself, but it was very optimistic of me to think, oh, okay. So we're living in this

13:04KT: world, in this in this story where it got wrapped up, and now we can move on. But, you know, even with Zain, for example, the trauma doesn't end. Right? But I thought we were done with the main story. It kinda reminded me of Schitt's Creek where we have Dan Levy's character and, you know, him having his queer relationship, and they didn't get they didn't go through that hard sort of trauma bonds as well. So I just thought that's just how it was going to be. She she went through that,

13:32KT: but now she's moving on. She's dealing with other trauma, but that's it. But, obviously, the story is not over, and it reintroduces itself Oh, for sure. Later on in the story. And I guess that's also a note as well that even though the act is done, it can continue to live on. And I guess that's that's where you have support networks whether formal or informal as well so I want to talk about the main

13:56KT: sort of story with Bella I also want to talk about Zain and I also want to talk about the lady in the clinic right off the bat I as much as I'm giving all of the Splooshies and accolades to Michaela Coel I've got to give it again we see Bella as an effervescent force to be reckoned with. Mhmm. She is out. She is young. She loves her fucking body, which is a lot to ask for, unfortunately, in this world. She is sexually liberated. She does whatever the fuck she wants, including recreational drugs,

14:31KT: and she's really just living in her own truth. Mhmm. And what I love and really appreciate about this show, the tagline wasn't because she was a slut or because she was a whore or because she wore this, because she did drugs, because she had sex with people whenever she wanted to have sex with people. Mhmm. I think a lot of the time, unfortunately, even most recently, you know, when when there are stories about sexual assault, it's showing how sexually conservative someone is. So how how could she be assaulted?

15:03KT: And I'm like, no. This is a story that is in a modern age, and there's nothing wrong with that. None of that has anything to do with that and none of that leads to whatever the rhetoric wants to be yeah like I'm bored let's move on let's have some sexually progressive people just wanting to live their life and

15:26KT: that didn't have a factor in it.

15:26Oti: I don't know it wasn't until that I was reflecting on the show I noticed that she wasn't sex shamed at all. Yeah which is quite progressive, if I might say. You know? It it sounds shocking, but it is. You know? In our last episode of The Chi, we're just talking about how Kiesha was

15:44Oti: kidnapped, and the whole story behind it was people not feeling sad for her because of what she did or what she posted on. Like racy pics and stuff like she dressed, and that doesn't even matter. That doesn't affect anything. Yeah. So, yeah, I'm I'm glad that they didn't go that route.

15:44KT: It's also a very interesting take

16:04KT: to the way that they you know reveal the story because a lot of the time when we see the portrayal of a sexual assault survivor by the way it was done in a way that was it was still within the setting of real life if that makes sense like there wasn't orchestral music where she fell to the ground in some cases there were But also at the same time, you know, the wheels keep turning. And

16:35KT: Michaela was talking about when this actually happened with her. One of her good friends was at the police station with her. And, you know, they were just sitting there, and they were waiting around. And she had this deeply life changing traumatic experience and she looked over at her friend that was there looking after her and supporting her and he was playing Pokemon GO so it really juxtaposed the world in which we're in, and I do like if we can even call it grounded, I do appreciate the groundedness

17:06KT: of this show. The same way that Bella is going through these experiences, but so is Kwame. And I guess if you wanna say to a certain extent, Terry as well.

17:06Oti: Yeah. We get introduced to Bella's world through Simon.

17:06KT: Yep.

17:06Oti: And Simon's relationship,

17:21Oti: struggling relationship as that because we see that he's trying they're trying to spice things up to keep the marriage afloat, They're trying to bring in a third partner. And in my head, I was just like, I see where this is going. Yeah. I see where this is going, and I know exactly what's gonna happen.

17:40Oti: Once Michaela woke up the next morning, I couldn't remember anything. Mhmm. And Simon's reaction to Bella's call, I just knew something was up. Yeah. He was definitely hiding something. And to me, what he was hiding is that he did something with his friends. Yeah. That affected Bella. So I was really in for it to just see how all that transpired. And then halfway through, we just thought it was resolved, and that was it. Only to be brought back by Simon and Terry having this conversation in the park and it all being revealed. Yeah. Unbeknownst

18:11Oti: to us when we thought Terry was such a good fucking friend. Yeah.

18:16KT: But I feel like, you know, I I feel like I give PSAs in every podcast if you have someone whether it's a friend or a loved one or whomever that is constantly checking for your life usually they're too scared to make their own actions and usually they're very judgmental about yours And I feel like Terry fit very perfectly into that as well. While we're talking about Simon, it's interesting because, you know, when a new world, when a new show gets introduced to me, I am

18:50KT: going from all directions. So I was like, what the fuck is going on? Did he have something to do with what happened to Bella? What is and and I think they did keep that disarray. Emotionally, we were experiencing it the same way Bella was, at least for the first two episodes. So I was questioning everything. I didn't think it was going to be sorry in 2020, a very straightforward thing of him stepping out on his girlfriend. Right? Yeah. I thought it was going to be something way more complicated

19:19KT: than that. I think in a lot of our podcast episodes, just fucking communicate. Like, I don't understand. Like, hey. I'm stepping out on you. I don't know. Is it that easy? I'm very direct, so I'm not sure how it works for other couples. But Kat is Simon's partner, and we see I think we weren't supposed to root for her at the start. She was kind of just really abrasive when we first kind of met her, And she was really trying to get along with Alyssa when they met

19:48KT: on the rooftop with Simon's cousin. Right? Only to find out they were fucking each other for what? Six months

19:56Oti: Yeah. Already?

19:57KT: And I don't know when we're going to get back to it so let's talk about it now. So when Bella is trying to, you know, piece together what happened to her that night she finds herself at Alyssa's doorstep. Alyssa is not a fan not at all which is fine if you're the side piece I guess you don't want you know that main Jennifer Hudson spotlight attention

20:19KT: but

20:21KT: she didn't care for it and then there's at least from the point of view of the story, a second visit to Alyssa's home of Kat.

20:21Oti: Alyssa

20:29Oti: just goes off on Kat. Yeah. You know? And I think Kat just absorbed and understood every single thing. She did not need to say a single word. Sad. Lasted moment, she knew at least. She just had to leave Simon. That ship had already sailed. That marriage was sunk me.

20:47KT: All you needed was John Legend's You're My Number One playing in the background. You rapscallion. Mhmm. So let's move on to Zain in regards to Bella. This is very interesting because as far as she understands, they're just having a good time. There was the moment in their bedroom when I thought it was weird that Zain would even confess that he did it after they had sex. Yeah. I thought he would just never tell her because at the same time, what does you telling her like, does that make you less guilty

21:25KT: of a person? I remember when that scene happened, and I don't think you felt the way that I felt watching it or at least to the intensity that I felt it. Because as soon as he whipped that fucking condom off, I was in a rage. Yeah. I didn't need a podcast as much as you love For Your Reference, but I didn't need a podcast to tell me that that was fucking wrong.

21:25Oti: Yeah. It's definitely super wrong. And Zain

21:50Oti: apparently did this throughout his whole sort of relationships or conquest or whatever he wanted to fucking call them.

21:50KT: And we also have

21:58KT: the lady as a part of Henny House where Bella had a moment with her and you could tell that she went through a very similar experience with Zain so it's it becomes a conquest unfortunately and you know it's where straight men are king in this sexual dominion and it needs to stop it absolutely needs to stop because it it very much challenges

22:25KT: what an abuser looks like.

22:25Oti: Yeah One of the worst things was that the sort of textbook response that they give, you know, it's it's like what to do when you get caught. Yeah. What to say? And it was just word for word. I was like, oh fucking hell.

22:25KT: But this isn't fucking

22:45KT: infiltrating someone's Discord channel and you know they even talked about doxxing Yeah. In this show as well you know when Bella kind of feeds into her own fumes a bit too much. You know, they talk about doxxing and potentially doxxing Zain as well. But what I will finish, I guess, in regards to Zain is it's not just, you know, the big violent stranger on the street that is an abuser. It could be someone you know or it could be someone that seems very affectionate

23:21KT: as well. There are different types of abuse much like the way in Training Day when I talked about it's not just people on a rooftop screaming I'm a fucking racist. Right? There are different levels of racism the same way there are different levels of abuse. And Zain painted such a perfect picture because you look at him, you know, and they were cutely joking about him being from Cambridge, but it's still not a safe space. And I love that they tackled it and it's included in the show and more than anything,

23:55KT: especially if people aren't comfortable even talking to people they love, this can be something

24:01KT: that can spark that sort of dialogue.

24:01Oti: Oh, for sure. And I think one of the the worst things that happened throughout this show was Henny's Henny's disregard of any sort of humanistic feelings at all. Money fucking talks. It's all about the money. They made a big

24:18Oti: spectacle of firing him after, you know, all of the viral videos, and then they let him back through the back door with a pseudo name. Yeah. And that if that doesn't speak to how unfucking fair the real life and, you know, money is,

24:34Oti: I don't know what else does, my love. Like, at the end of the day, it's all about money. Mhmm. And Bella's insisted to talk to the author, and Henny was just shutting it down immediately without giving it any thought. I was just like, Henny's done with Bella because she's not producing at the end. Yeah. But part of that wasn't the case. Henny's just a bitch, mate. Yeah.

24:56KT: Absolutely. And the I guess the unfortunate thing is as soon as Bella found out that Henny was black, she thought she was going to have this, like, maybe not camaraderie, but at least some sort of base level of understanding. And especially when Bella was asking to meet the author, it was made very clear that

25:14KT: we may be black women but I'm a rich one and I wanna stay that yep and I will pull the ladder under me and you will not be you will not be climbing off my bootstraps and it is unfortunate, but I you know what? When we were watching this, the best way to summarize it is I love how real this show is, but I also hate how real this show is. Mhmm. And, you know, even as creatives, even as people that watch creatives, there's not a lot unless you're a fucking lawmaker.

25:46KT: There's not a lot that you can do to make meaningful change for generations. But what we can do is challenge our ignorances you know challenge the people in our circles the people that we go and have family dinners with and whether that be your actual family or or your made family we can change our insular worlds And it's all about that reciprocity, and it's all about being open as well. The last topic

26:17KT: that I want to focus on with Bella in regards to trauma and consent is when she goes to the clinic for the first time. For Bella and also Michaela Coel, they went and got tested quite recently after the event happened, which is also helpful to the investigations of the police as well. But what I wanna speak to is the lady in the clinic. They have this exchange. And, you know, Bella's obviously rattled, and she's talking through it. And the lady's like, oh, this is your first time?

26:49KT: And Bella looked very confused by that, and the lady started laughing. But it was more of a dismay. It was more of a wistful sort of laugh because she knows that, unfortunately, most likely,

27:03KT: this won't be the last time, unfortunately, for her.

27:03Oti: Yeah. Yeah. That was really sad. Think that's one of the of the scenes where he go like, shit, man. It was really heavy. Yeah. No matter how they delivered it, you sat there thinking, Jesus. You could you could just wonder what exactly she's been through. So that was very dismaying.

27:23KT: Let's move on to Terry. Terry, as an actual character, I have a lot of problems with. But let's just focus for now in the realms of trauma and also consent. I guess it depends on how the listener or us how we personally think about it but on on a very base level a sexual experience should be enjoyable even if there is a real sense of pain there should definitely be an overwhelming sense of pleasure and what I also appreciate about her particular encounter in Italy is there isn't a time limit on sexual trauma,

28:11KT: right? Because slowly she's starting to realize

28:16KT: that she wasn't necessarily on board with everything that was going on as well.

28:16Oti: Yeah, she was duped like she thought that she was in control of a situation. Like prowess. Like Yeah. Yeah. She was taken into a threesome and apparently, it seems like this guys have done it a lot.

28:16KT: Oh, absolutely.

28:16Oti: It's their technique. Yeah. To have that decision taken away from her as well, you know? So we see her realizing this throughout the show. Yeah. After

28:43Oti: it had already happened, she peered through the window and saw the two girls walking away friendly, and she realized that something was off about it. But I think she didn't really just put too much thought into it. I think throughout the whole show, that's when she starts revisiting a lot of these things. And then and when Kwame finally told her, like, those two guys definitely knew each other. You know? It just had it was a connect for a moment. She she just realized exactly what the fuck had happened. Yeah.

29:12KT: And but there there's so much there's so much layers to this. And I guess that's why I say, as a compliment, it's not just about Michaela Coel's experiences. It's bolstered in the healing of many people going through all sorts of experiences.

29:28Oti: Yeah. It's it's a myriad of traumas everywhere that people face, and it's not isolated to Bella. It's not isolated to Terry. We see a whole sleaze of women and people just going through trauma. And at the end of the day, it's how we see them trying to deal with it or how they try to survive it. Yeah. Absolutely.

29:54KT: So let's move on to Theodora. There were two particular instances I wanna talk about in regards to Theodora. It's when she was in high school. So it's one of one of the few sort of flashbacks that we see with Bella and also Terry in high school. And then there's also the situation between her mom and dad divorcing.

30:18Oti: I don't know where you felt watching Theo. I felt sorry for Theo. Yeah. She had the mom is a piece of is is a piece of shit. Yeah. All the pieces. Yeah. She has no right raising a kid. Yeah. Not even having one, to be honest.

30:35KT: She forced Theo Yeah. To lie about their dad sexually abusing him. At the age of seven. That shit messes up a kid. Because at some point, you believe it was true, and she mentions that. Yeah. She doesn't even know what the real truth was.

30:48Oti: Yeah. And I don't know. I felt really, really sorry for her because she had no to see Theo now when she was grown up and seeing what she did, I could not envision that for her at all. Yeah. Absolutely. For someone who grew up like that with parents and surroundings like that. And we always say, no one can fuck you up more than your fucking parents, mate.

30:48KT: Thank you, Oti. I was about to prompt you

31:15KT: is what they say in showbiz. No. But it's absolutely true, and I'm pretty sure that reveal came after the high school incident just in case people needed that sort of understanding. And Michaela also talks about, you know, getting people to understand. And I fucking love this about her because we talked about this on the podcast a lot. Like, no one is inherently good, and no one is inherently bad. As much as I will hail Satan on this podcast, no one is a 100% evil brimming firestone from hell. Right? And everyone is multifaceted.

31:54KT: Everyone has so much, you know, fragmented pieces that we try and put together to make us whole. Right? And Theodora is a very good example of that. Yes. It's fucked up that she orchestrated, you know, a situation for the kid to possibly go to jail because these are actual photos of sexual acts but at the same time you also need to acknowledge not only the fact that she has gone through so much already but also sharing and circulating sexual acts through pictures

32:31KT: in this high school was normal. And we see that when Bella and Terry are talking to another student and he's like, we all do it. He was just dumb to get caught And that is a behavior that needs to be challenged.

32:44Oti: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think she caught herself and said that the kid raped raped her. Mhmm. And we see Michaela and Terry Yeah. You know, sub finding these pictures or being given these pictures of apparently being in a consensual act and that being taken to the headmaster of the school and the kid being released. And I'm, like, sitting there thinking those pictures were just added petrol to the fire, to be honest. If if it was in my school back in fucking Africa.

33:15KT: Well, I think, like, to think that kids aren't having sex and they aren't having drugs at a young age whether that is abhorrent whether it is morally objectionable has nothing to do with the fact that it is a reality in some cases you know it's it's the same thing with having sex ed classes but the tagline is don't have sex like that is not sex education and even if there is any sort of education in schools it doesn't have anything to do with,

33:50KT: you know, women. It doesn't have anything to do with queer people. It's just a guy gets a boner, so you need to cover it, and that's it.

33:50Oti: Yep. Pretty much, man.

33:50KT: And I guess, also, another layer that I wanna add on Theo's story was, you know, Bella and Terry, they they have a group. They they have a very close group. And I guess because of the experiences that they go through in the school, also because of the prefrontal cortex isn't fully developed yet, as we know, they seem to have this very

34:26KT: limited view that only black people go through shit and not white people. So in that moment, they needed to def like, they needed to defend that kid as opposed to actually check-in and see how Theo is doing as a woman. Right? So or as a young woman, rather. But I guess also another layer that I wanna add on Theo's story because I don't think she gets enough attention, and she doesn't get enough discussion

34:51KT: around her character. And it's definitely what I feel we should do for this show. So the other thing I would say about Theo is, yes, she lied. She she actually, you know, cut herself deliberately, but she's also from a frame of reference where she knows what she needs to do to get heard. So, yes, she orchestrated

35:18KT: the operations around it, but the truth is still there. She was taken advantage of. This kid said she loved him. And the kid was like, oh, you you you had a good time with the other guy. Why won't you do it with me? That sort of, like, entitlement. Even as a as a young as a young man, he still has that entitlement about him. Yeah. I've got a dick, and you should be grateful that I'm going to stick it in you.

35:45Oti: Pretty much.

35:47KT: And to see Theo, you know, come into her own, very unfortunately through the trauma that she went through, but to see her create that support group to want to help other people that have gone through all different credences of abuse and something that I really appreciate was seeing the friendship form between Theo and also Bella Yeah. Terry was very territorial. No. She was. And she was threatened that the fact that someone else could get close to Bella, but she also didn't understand

36:22KT: what Bella was going through. She just wanted to cover her in love and affection without truly digging deep to hear what she went through. Yep. There's nothing wrong with that. I think we have different types of people in our lives. I think Terry isn't that deep sort of friend. You know? They'll come around and then party with you in Europe or whatever. But when you have those quiet moments of vulnerability, sometimes you need a different sort of friend, and that was there. Yep. Okay, let's move on to trauma and consent in the LGBT community.

37:00KT: I do have an article here and I'll share it on our site. It's about male and LGBT survivors of sexual violence in conflict situations. I just wanna read an excerpt of that. Over the past two decades, sexual and gender based violence against women and girls in conflict situations has received increasing attention, leading to a marked progress in research and the development of interventions to identify survivors and support their health and protection needs. At the same time, however, the health of men, boys, and lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, LGBT, and other non binary people

37:37KT: exposed to sexual violence in conflict has been insufficiently addressed by research and the UN policy agenda. So let's talk about Kwame. I had a lot of confusion watching this show because there were whole episodes where Kwame and his experiences wasn't getting addressed. And there were moments where even if it kind of does get addressed, even after he had already explained his story to Bella and Terry, they kind of made really snide, dismissive comments on him being on that app again. And, you know, it's it's a very interesting parallel.

38:19KT: And I would say that it was deliberate, but I don't personally know, to have Bella's experiences being given so much care and love and support. And I definitely appreciate that. But also in parallel, you have Kwame sharing his experience and not receiving the same, even from his own friends, because we'll talk about the police in a second. But the fact that he has people that he loves and relies and trusts on, not fully accepting it and and still finding room to judge him is an interesting

38:55KT: point in the story, and I wanna talk about that.

38:55Oti: Yeah. It was weird how especially Bella for me, how she didn't take it as serious or I feel like she took it as serious as it should have been. Yeah. Kwame pretty much just exposed himself to them Yeah. About the traumatic experiences he's been through. But Bella Bella was also going through a difficult process, and I think she was just removed from it a tad. Yeah. And I think when where Terry listened,

39:28Oti: but she didn't even take it that seriously either. Yeah. She she was there to lend an ear, give a shoulder. Yep. Definitely much more than Bella was. Yep. And to me, I thought Bella would be would have been a better a better shoulder to cry on or even give comfort to. Mhmm.

39:28KT: Oh, I absolutely agree. And

39:50KT: there's unfortunately still a lot of shame around sex in the LGBT community, whether it's inside, but in most cases outside. And we see a very micro example of this in in people that he loves as well. Because I think they're at the park, and they're really having an acute moment, and they're eating snacks, and they're drinking soda pop. I think that's more of an American, not a u not a UK or Australian term. But, you know, there's there's a whole notion of his sexuality,

40:28KT: and they're all just laughing over it. And I think even Bella at some point says, I'm not straight. I just love dick. And I I don't think he was given the time and attention that he deserved. An interesting question in one of the interviews that Michaela Coel had was people asking, is Kwame going to get a spin off? And Michaela said something very interesting of he could get a spin off, but what would be even better is if Kwame got his own show where he was the main character and someone like Kwame

41:00KT: wrote it. So that's that's a very interesting point of view because I I understand it. Because as much as you try and bring people in and you try and highlight the triumphs and also the lows of particular type of people I guess to some point there's only so much you can do and Michaela has kind of done a lot already by covering other people but there was always that question at the back of our heads asking what about Kwame when does he get his time and unfortunately he got his time

41:37KT: you know, if you wanna put it down on and put a checkbox, when he went to the police station. But it was nowhere near the experience that Bella had with officer Funmi and officer Beth. Even when they came back the second time, it was cute, they were laughing, and both of them were pregnant at the same time contrasting to officer Tom. We love you in Chewing Gum, but we don't love you in this show, sir. The way that he was so aloof about it, I would imagine, you know, the the the casualness

42:08KT: of it probably would have been very similar decades ago to women coming forward and maybe even still now, unfortunately. It was he was trying to make it not a case so he didn't have to do paperwork or maybe it was too hard for him to comprehend, or just the fact that, oh, yeah, but it was consensual. Yeah. You know?

42:08Oti: I took it differently. I took it as him

42:31Oti: being given that to take the details because, a, Kwame is a man, and they didn't even give investigators. Usually, it's the job of the investigators who come and take, to do the initial,

42:45Oti: interview. Yeah. But now they sent the officer who who probably just does desk jobs and goes on patrols. So that's his remit. Absolute bare minimum. It's not his remit. Even he himself said, I don't usually do this. Let me go talk to my boss and see what happens. And the boss just dismissed it. He didn't even give Kwame a single time of day to talk about anything. No. But you could see officer Tom also had a repulsion.

43:10Oti: Officer Tom had a repulsion. Yeah. Granted. But it's not his job to do that. Yeah. It's you can't rely on people caring about you because then that depends from person to person. Even the stark difference between how Kwame's reporting and Bella going to report was so different. Absolutely. They closed the fucking door. Yeah. There's a big ass sign on the door. Please leave this closed at all times to protect the person.

43:39KT: And you know, you just know that officer Tom would have walked back into his office and said this as, like, a joke at a party or something.

43:39Oti: And I think this is one I I remember in Kenya,

43:50Oti: I think I was super young. Well, not that young, but there was this story on the news where they're reporting how this guy was crying because he was being battered by a woman. Yeah. It's domestic violence, but this time, it's the man that's out on the street. He was literally out on the street crying. Yeah. He had bruises all over. Yeah. And it was being reported as a joke. People were laughing. Yeah. My family was fucking laughing. Like, how could a man let a beat him that? It's so funny. Yeah. Only for the next

44:28Oti: day for a woman's group that usually does deals with these cases in Kenya Yeah. To come forward and say, hey. You know? This shit happens on both sides. Yeah. And to me, when I watched it first, was like, oh, how could this dude let a woman beat him? Come on now. And then for that story to follow-up the next day, was like, oh, okay. Cool. So this shit does happen. Yeah. And it it's it's sort of the imbalance that is in society. Yeah. So I I really felt for Kwame.

44:57Oti: It was really sad how he went through it. It's not easy to come forward. Yeah. But when you do put yourself out there and come forward You wanna hope that it's going to be dealt with delicacy. At least at least the decency enough for people to fucking take notes and even try and you remember seeing officer Tom's reaction? He's like, oh, so how will we get the evidence?

45:20KT: Yeah. He didn't he didn't he didn't care to do anything. Yeah. And even when he kept asking, what's the username? What's the username? You know he was just doing that for shits and giggles, and he he wasn't doing it as a part of the investigation.

45:34Oti: And his cringe,

45:36Oti: that cringe on his face the whole time. I don't know, man.

45:36KT: Yeah. It was like he it's like it was an inconvenience for him to even do that. And even the example that you brought is like, don't understand how a man can be beaten by a woman. Cool. But it actually happened. So now how do we deal with it? Yep. Right? Yep. So

45:55KT: and also at the same time, you know, officer Tom was trying to keep pushing back on the fact that I don't think it's gaslighting, but he was just like, but you went there, you wanted to have sex and it was like, yeah up until that point it was consensual until it wasn't. Right? That and I think it's I don't know if it's a reluctance of society to accept complexities to a situation because we're all fucking simple, or he just didn't wanna do the paperwork. Either way, it is fucking lazy, and it needs to change.

46:29KT: Yeah. You know, even trying to read reports and try and get stats and, you know, try and get observations of studies that have gone on, barely any of them include LGBT studies, which also, I don't blame anyone because once you get to that point, no one's fucking helping you. But also at the same time, like, resources need to be available. And, like, I don't know. If you don't fucking care about anything, go and sell a fucking car. Don't be in a space where you can catastrophically ruin and continue to ruin someone's life.

47:08Oti: Yeah. Because guess what? The next time something like that happens to Kwame, he's definitely not going to the police.

47:08KT: Absolutely not. Yeah. And I think also at the same time, could see in the series,

47:19KT: he was saying that, you know, as much as he loves Bella and Terry, they'll just never understand. And he was proven absolutely right. Even when they're in the shopping center and they were buying groceries or snacks or something, they kept especially Bella, but she was kind of in her own trauma bubble at that moment. But, you know, they were just like, oh, are you going to fuck someone tonight? Are you on that dating app? And at first, I thought that Bella didn't know,

47:47KT: but the I think the proceeding scene was at the park. So they both knew, and that's how they chose to carry themselves.

47:54Oti: Yeah.

47:55KT: Which I don't know. That that I guess that's a story for another day. And I don't know. For me, if if someone resembles that sort of unreliability, I just throw you straight in the garbage bin. Oh. Not the recycling bin. Bin, mate. Not the recycling bin because you're not good for anyone. I'll put you in the garbage bin. But I don't know. There there's a lot about Kwame that broke my heart. And, also, at the same time, you don't want him to necessarily have a perfect story either because it is reflective of real life.

48:27KT: And I think like you mentioned with Terry, her talking about the threesome, Kwame also mentions at Terry's party, they're just having this exchange. And he talks it starts off very saucy. And he talks about losing his virginity when he's walking home from school. And then he starts to realize, fuck. That actually wasn't a sexy experience. And he starts to think back on that. I just wanna comment a little bit quickly on the girl on the dating app. So this is when he wants a break from men and he just wants to feel that power

49:00KT: again.

49:01Oti: Yeah. I think he should have been straight up. Mhmm. That was just weird, man. I don't know. Like, if if the lady knew from the get go that he was he was not straight Mhmm. Fair enough. Going in the false practices and then doing that and then expecting I'm not sure what he expected or at least how he expected her to react to that. I was fully on board with how she felt because she did feel used. Yeah.

49:31Oti: And fair enough, man. Like, if I don't if if she didn't want to see Kwame again, nothing Kwame can do about it. Okay.

49:38KT: I I love how real we're getting on this episode. I will continue to be real with this. I feel like your sexuality is your own, so I don't personally believe that Kwame had to disclose that he is gay. What I don't agree with in regards to Kwame's actions was seeing her as an experiment. Because no matter what sexuality you are, you shouldn't be using people as an experiment.

50:08Oti: But you have this girl thinking that this is going somewhere when Kwame fully knows that it's not because she's he's just not interested in her. That way

50:08KT: you have the moment when they're in the bed and

50:19KT: she makes a comment because he says the f word. And she was just saying that how is it you're okay with people saying the n word, but you just said the f word just now. So I don't know. I'm not saying ignorant people don't have credence, but I'm also saying at the same time, she kind of showed her colors as well.

50:40Oti: She she showed her colors. Fair enough. She wasn't the best person, but still, I feel like Kwame should have just been straight up regardless. Because to me, if you think that this is not going anywhere, she was pretty probably in the head, she was thinking, oh, the next date or whatever. And then, I don't know I just felt it was wrong and Kwame should have said something.

50:40KT: Oh it was absolutely wrong and I I like that it's not just this character

51:07KT: is going through trauma and they're going through trauma but they can also inflict that on other people. Yeah. And yeah. Absolutely. It's very well rounded. Let's move on to the ending and talking about revenge fantasies. I do have a quick paragraph here. The study points to the significance of feelings of injustice as an internal mechanism for evoking a desire for revenge and associated fantasies, which may endow the victim with a sense of control

51:39KT: after the trauma although the natural tendency to seek revenge and revenge fantasies tend to be regarded in literature as a negative component while the concept of forgiveness is seen as a positive step towards healing So I don't think we've said spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, but there you go. We're having real conversations. So thank you for joining us even if you haven't watched I May Destroy You. The ending Oti, I felt very frustrated at the start of episode 12. And even maybe up until, like, the final quarter of episode 12,

52:18KT: I started to come to the understanding that this was Bella's way of processing that experience and everything that she's gone through. It became clear to me that these experiences were not for me. They were for Bella and whoever resonated with that. I started to realize that these were revenge fantasies, and they're a way to play out, you know, her experiences and a way for her to heal. So there's three different instances that we have in this ending, and I wanna quickly mention them, and then we can talk about it. The first one

52:55KT: has them drugging David and making him feel the same way that Bella felt. So this was the most elaborate, I think, of the fantasies where Theo also gets involved, and they start strangling or they follow him even to the point where he's still walking, but you can see that he's drugged because he's not responding. And he gets strangled with Bella's underwear and they put him under her bed so that's the first revenge fantasy

53:23KT: the second one was actually terry's plan where Bella would be drugged so she gets super super drugged but then she gets drugged even more And this is a very interesting scenario because in this one, Bella shows David a kindness because he has the chance to speak and he says that he actually can't help it. He's actually gone to jail for it and he doesn't know what to do possibly from his own sexual trauma and it starts to make you question what if your rapist is also a person.

53:59KT: Right? And this is a very interesting scenario because yourself, the people that love you are not caring about the other person. So it definitely takes it all the way of only caring about it because you notice even in that fantasy sequence of the bedroom is like red as well that Bella's not really talking in that moment

54:23KT: and I'm sure that is deliberate the last revenge fantasy that we have is the bathroom doors open and we're seeing different scenarios throughout the series there's one where you know you see the teenagers we also see the lady again from the clinic, the bar is empty this time it's daytime she buys David a drink and this is where they have from what we can see consensual sex she's on top as well so I guess you could denote that to her trying to gain control her claiming that back from him,

55:01KT: there's a moment when she wakes up and he says I'll leave if you want me to leave she says go he leaves and the bloody body takes the ultrasound as well we have a little bit of an inkling earlier on in the series where the therapist is walking Bella through activities that might be helpful. That's where we see in the series where she's painting, she's listening to music or podcasts or what have you. But they did touch on revenge fantasies

55:34KT: a little bit. We also have the moment where they're at that paint and sip sort of situation where they have that fight Bella and Kwame in particular and she finds her way on her therapist's house. And that's where we get a very interesting insight to what Bella is experiencing and also Michaela notes in her interviews as well, talking about everything that you don't wanna deal with goes under.

56:02KT: Everything everything is under and it all stays there. And in order for her to move on, in order for her to heal, she needs to deal with that.

56:10Oti: Oh, yeah. Because you also see that what's under her bed is an ultrasound.

56:14KT: Yeah. And that doesn't even get touched on, but I love that they included it as a point of dialogue. I you know, the the more I think about this show, the more I appreciate how much it is doing for so many people that have gone through so much. The revenge fantasies are very interesting because it shows different senses and different levels of healing as well. Obviously, the last one is the most the the I guess, the most balanced sort of scenario because, you know, the the the the vices that David has, whether it's intentional

56:56KT: or whether it's something he can't control, it is something that leaves her bedroom, her private space, as well as him taking the ultrasound Yeah. As well. So there's there's definitely a lot of healing that needs to be done. But something interesting that happens in the last episode is and I'm pretty sure this isn't fantasy. I'm pretty sure this is actually part of the story where Zain helps her with the book. Yeah. That wasn't fantasy. And I think that kinda denotes to the second revenge fantasy where she shows overwhelming kindness to David. Right?

57:34KT: And I guess we're all just different sort of people because I I I I don't know if I have the capacity to forgive that deeply. Like, if you've wronged me that much and I guess that just speaks to Bella as a character.

57:53Oti: Yeah. Yeah. I was surprised that she showed that much. Well, I guess she wanted to finish the book and all that, and Zain was helpful in that regard. But but sure the same kindness to David who turned the life upside down. I don't know. It just felt a bit not not not

58:14Oti: revengey enough for me.

58:14KT: Yeah. And also at the same time, this is still a show. So it may just be that fantastical sort of element and not necessarily what people would do in real life or maybe it is. Who knows? Maybe it is. Yeah. So we've already talked about reporting assault and also the support group. The only other thing that I will mention is

58:37KT: Theo has an introduction that she mentions at the start of every support group and something that really stuck with me was one of the last things that she said and it was 89% of trials end in exoneration and I don't think at that moment we realized that that was foreboding for Bella's circumstance as well. Because as far as we saw, she was dealing with Zain's trauma. She was already done with the initial one. Right? But I I definitely just wanted to lay that out there. There are definitely more themes that get explored beyond

59:12KT: sexual trauma, and I want us to go through that in this episode today. I wanna talk about Ben, Bella's roommate. It did very much at the start of series feel like he possibly might have been the one all along or maybe that was just me. Did you feel like he

59:12Oti: I felt there was something off that he did something.

59:12KT: Yeah. And I wanna talk about loneliness because, you know, there's even a video graphic that gets shown later on in the series talking about loneliness all over the world and how people are starting to experience

59:53KT: that. I do have an excerpt from Forbes, and I just wanna read it here. Nearly half of Americans always or sometimes feel alone or left out. 54% said they always or sometimes feel that no one knows them well. It's not just The US. In a nationwide survey released in October from the BBC, a third of Britons said they often feel or are very lonely. Over 65% consider television or a pet as their main source of company. In Japan, there are more than half a million people 40

60:30KT: who haven't left their house or interacted with anyone for at least six months. In Canada, the share of solo households is now 28%. Across the EU, it's 34%.

60:42Oti: Loneliness is a thing, and it was really sad just seeing Ben trying to navigate all that. And I think, in my opinion, Bella, Terry helped in them being understanding and not putting Ben in a ridiculous amount of pressure to try and do something. They'd always invite him, and if he said no, they'd leave it at that, not trying to pester him to do anything. We saw when he when they threw parties in the house, Ben would just be in his room,

61:11Oti: with possibly noise cancelling headphones on. Yeah. Just staying away from all that. And he had his gardening. It was sad just seeing him like that by end of the day. At least he had a friend in Bella and Terry to a degree.

61:11KT: I love that this show

61:30KT: was already tackling something from a perspective that we've never seen before. So even already, she is ticking all of the boxes that we could have ever expected. I don't know. I don't know if it's one of those things where it's it's like you just laugh at a wife beating a husband. I don't know if the the concept of around the world people feeling lonely is something that is taken seriously. Maybe with the pandemic, people are starting to realize because it's it's not not to say that, you know, Hikikomori in Japan is deliberate,

62:07KT: but, you know, with the pandemic, it's it's probably showing a lot more that it is harder for people that aren't connecting or don't even have the people that they would want to connect with to be able to. And that was something I thought was tackled really well. I excuse me. I didn't even expect that that would be something that was tackled in the show. So I was always waiting for him to be that one person that was kind, and we thought we could trust him. Right? But, yeah, I just really love that this was

62:40KT: outlined in the show. And like you said, they Bella and Terry also spent time with him as well. And he he found solace in that, and he was always waiting to have time but not wanting to force that as well. Yeah. Like, our lives are are our own, and it is hard to try and, you know, cultivate the life that you want, especially if you don't get to or you're not wanting to engage at that particular time.

63:10Oti: Oh, great.

63:11KT: The next topic that I wanna go to, I've titled it as happy animals. In this show, early, it was either in the first or second or even third episode of the series, I noticed that there was a news piece that was going on in the TV in the background of the scene, and it was talking about deforestation in Africa. So I just wanna quickly read a quote from the WWF site. Between 1990 and 2000, approximately 91,000 kilometers squared of forests were lost in Central Africa, three times the size of Belgium. Between 2000 and 2012,

63:55KT: East Africa lost around 6,000,000 hectares of forest. WWF projects that the region will lose 12,000,000 hectares between 2010 and 2030 if current trends continue. Again, a show that already tackles a lot of important topics from a very interesting and needed perspective is also covering deforestation in Africa, flooding, world hunger, and also climate change. Yeah. And and

64:28Oti: veganism as well, if you add that to the list. With the happy animals, if you're welcome.

64:28KT: And

64:34KT: I guess the the best way to discuss this was at Terry's birthday Because for a lot of the series, it is quite insular to the three characters. But now we see a bit of an expansion of their world and a lot of opinions. There's a lot of opinions, especially through the vehicle of Bella being hired to be the social media influencer

64:59KT: for happy animals and how it's vegan. And a lot of them had a lot of opinions about it. And I thought it was very interesting because a lot of the people were like, why the fuck do we care? And one of them was actually making very valid points, very interesting points of, you know, the white men have had this for decades. Why can't we have our Mercedes now? But now they're saying we need to get different cars. And that is a very interesting dialogue, but I also love the extra layer that this show brings

65:29KT: that these sort of environmental issues also affect the world, including, like, deforestation in Africa, for example. Yeah.

65:37Oti: It's interesting. I think one of the things that happy animals reminded me of is that you got all.

65:44KT: We Got Y'all. From Insecure. Thank you. We love you, Issa Rae. Thank you for the reference.

65:44Oti: And

65:49Oti: I was like, oh, bloody hell. Surely. And I think one of the things that really made it seem seedy was the fact that Theo would get a better cut Yeah. If she brought Oh, yes. A black person in to talk about veganism. Yeah. Ridiculous. Due and to fact, a lot of the suspicions that a lot of the people had in that room or the party were right. Yeah. You know? And Theo came clean to

66:22Oti: Bella, and she was like, you know, yeah, actually, it's true. I've been, you know I'm even getting paid more to bring you this, you know. So it's it's all about our of just it's all just a facade without doing

66:35Oti: much really.

66:35KT: But also at the same time, like like, I I guess I just wanna hear your comments on them saying who cares about these broader

66:46KT: environmental issues when we're trying to build our own wealth.

66:46Oti: And I get that. Like, people have been struggling for ages, and now that they have a chance to start living a life they've been envisioning, it's not sustainable anymore. So I get that point of view. I get the frustration.

67:05KT: Yeah. I know. I I I guess it's the you know, no matter who you are, it's that conversation of how much do you wanna care about that doesn't directly affect you. And I appreciate that Michaela Coel put these themes inside of the show, and I would I would surmise that perhaps she does care.

67:05Oti: I'd say she does too as well.

67:05KT: But there's also that aspect of virtue signaling

67:32KT: as well. Like, during the Black Lives Matter movement, we've all seen that clip of that lady pretending to board up a shop, and then the boyfriend takes a picture, and then they drive off in their fancy car. Right? Like, that's a very real scenario. And, you know, to to have Bella endorse veganism, as you mentioned before, it would have brought a lot of likes, and it would have brought a lot of attention. The same attention that she was eating fried chicken from

68:01KT: Yep. As well. So I guess it's also being in your power and saying you can't buy my influence.

68:09KT: Speaking

68:10KT: of technology, this is a very light touch, but I just wanna talk about how technology plays a part. Like we mentioned at the top of this episode, we got through five episodes before we had to take a break from this show. And I'm pretty sure it is episode five where Bella is feeling very despondent. She's not connecting with Terry. She's not connecting with Kwame. And she takes some cute photos, and she posts them. And there's that big heart bubble that floats towards her outside of her phone.

68:45KT: And that might not mean a lot, but it meant a lot to me because it speaks a lot to maybe people that are younger than us, but also people that are our age that have learned to seek love through our social networks not The Social Dilemma because we didn't care for that in the For Your Reference household but it talks a lot to you know wanting people to know that you are okay or that you've got things altogether.

69:16Oti: Yeah. And I and I get it. Like, she especially the role that technology played in her trying to regain some of the power she deemed she'd lost. Yeah. She just took this social media to a different degree, and we saw how that affected her dynamics in or our friendship with Kwame and Terry.

69:16KT: Thank you so much, guys,

69:38KT: for following along with us this week. We would love to hear your thoughts and feelings about it. I do wanna finish off with a quote from Michaela Coel in her MacTaggart lecture of 2018, and then we'll get into For Your Reference, in case you guys are concerned or you wanted to know, I May Destroy You did have a therapist available to the cast at all times. It also had intimacy coaches as well. You know, to be able to deliver such a powerful message about sexual assault survival,

70:17KT: I guess, also, the important thing is making sure that you're not repeating that trauma on set. So it's it's great to know that I May Destroy You did have it. It's unfortunate that it's not a given in the entertainment industry, but hopefully, is something that we come to see. You know, Michaela does a lot in regards to bringing people along, black creatives along and, you know, giving them that place at the table and to stay

70:44KT: at the table as well. And this is a quote that I wanna make sure that we have on our podcast where she talks about misfits.

70:51Clip: The term misfits takes on dual notions. A misfit is one who looks at life differently. Many, however, are made into misfits because life looks at them differently. The UK's black, Asian, and ginger communities, for example. And there are many other examples. The term misfits can be cross generational and crosses concepts of gender or culture simply by a desire for transparency, a desire to see another's point of view. Misfits who visibly fit in will sometimes find themselves merging with the mainstream for a feeling of safety. Synonyms, outsider, falcon.

71:32KT: Alright, Oti. Let's do what we do around here. Let's get into segment we call For Your Reference. Oti.

71:32Oti: If you wanna get to know more of Michaela Coel stuff, I'd suggest watching Chewing Gum.

71:32KT: Nice. I'm going to do a future reference for us, something that we haven't watched, but I'm going to reference Oti. Mhmm. Black Earth Rising. Wow. Yep. If you wanna follow us on a day to day in between our week to week podcasts, we have Twitter and Instagram at @ForYourRefPod. You could write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com.

72:04KT: We also have Apple Podcasts if you like to leave a rating review, and we'll see you guys next week. See you. Bye.