Fallen – How Great thou Art

Full transcript of Fallen – How Great thou Art.

0:00KT: Good day. Before we address the items on the agenda, Oti, we have a very exciting announcement. Oh, what's that? Whoop. Whoop. Whoop. We have a new Patreon alert. Whoo hoo. Shout outs to the ever delightful Brandi Fleeks. She is an accomplished writer, a very close friend of ours, and she also has a kick ass podcast with her sister Sunny, Book of Lies. They've also been on our show. Thank you so much for your love, adoration, and support even before coming on Patreon, and we love you so much. For sure. Hello,

1:04KT: friends and lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host, KT.

1:04Oti: And Oti.

1:04KT: Measure your breath cubits and meticulously place that cereal box. Mhmm. Join us as we solve the mysteries of nineteen ninety eight's Fallen. What a film.

1:26Oti: What a film indeed. A film I had not heard of before. Yeah. Same.

1:32KT: Look at us getting into first impressions. Let's quickly dive into the stats, which is what we do around here. Also, if this is the first time you've graced the For Your Reference podcast, we take Carlyle O'Khan around here. And if you have checked out our podcast for as many as 80 or even two episodes, we fucking love you guys. And you're more than welcome to sit on our Jupiter's John Cox. Mhmm.

1:56Oti: Do you love a good John Hannah quote?

1:59KT: Yeah. We whatever that was, Anna Hancock too. We have director of Gregory Hoblit, writer Nicholas Kazan, and the stars have come out Oti. Mhmm. When I tell you, I tell you, I tell you. We'll talk about our first impressions, but if we're talking about movies that you go back to that are, like, undiscovered treasures that you unearth in your archaeological Schliemann digs Mhmm. This is the fucking film. And you don't even need to name them all, like, with their full name. Washington, Goodman, Gandolfini, Sutherland, daddy Sutherland, if you'd like a prefix. Mhmm.

2:45KT: Fucking woah, man. Absolutely. Wow. Let me continue on to the stats because I'm growing in my own sploosh puddle right now. It had a budget of $46,000,000 and a worldwide gross of $25,200,000. Oh. Right?

3:07Oti: With all that star power, is it the 43 movie of back then? Yikes.

3:12KT: Was it Movie 43 or something? Yeah. Or like the New Year's Eve. Yeah. Oh, but I wouldn't say so. How dare you? How fucking dare you, Oti? Not in mine household and definitely not in mine bedchambers. Mhmm. So let's start off with our first impressions. We both mentioned that we never came across this movie before. I guess also while we're here, we do have a tantalizing, deliciously, pussy of charming of all Training Day. Mhmm. Definitely go and check out that episode. So it's definitely not anything that we've come across

3:50KT: in our viewership or even just in passing. So feel free to talk about that. Feel free to talk about the stars. And, also, I guess, in this case, more generally, how you felt about the movie.

4:01Oti: So for some reason, I really don't recall ever seeing or knowing about this movie.

4:06KT: And you know a lot. Like, if if Especially watched a lot, but even if you haven't watched it, you seem to have some sort of periphery knowledge. Especially Denzel joint. It's Denzel joint.

4:20Oti: So when you suggested that we watch this movie and you listed its star power, the one thing he does for me at least nowadays is I don't really get excited by that by names anymore because we've been so bitterly disappointed in the past, but by word, this movie did not disappoint at all. I think at the end of it, I was enthralled by just how simplistically

4:41Oti: chic it was in in doing its in doing the fundamentals right. You know? We've just seen a previous movie that had a lot of different cinematic shots, angles, panning of cameras up and down and sideways and spinning around. It was just so fucking much, and I just it just created this calming presence. And I was fully focused on the story. I was fully focused on what on how they'll do the exposition, and I was never really disappointed, not one bit. Nice.

5:11KT: And I think even the storytelling was quite great as well, but I definitely agree. And it's always fun to revisit, you know, films or TV shows that have been around for a while, but you've never really dabbled in it. You know, I mentioned it in the Shield episode where sometimes I don't need your salacious camera angles and all of your slick sort of stylistic editing and and color grading. Like and I don't need any sort of I I noticed in this film a lot as well, there wasn't a lot of meta

5:46KT: references. Even though we are the household of all references, sometimes it's nice just to stay in the world and not take a few steps to observe the world outside of that. Mhmm. And I really, really appreciated that we stayed inside of the movie. And even though there were supernatural elements to it, there were gradual reveals of that, and there were Hansel and Gretel breadcrumbs of, you know, slowly dissolving the realm of reality. Yeah. So it didn't feel as

6:16KT: I I guess it felt starkly ridiculous in Ghost, for example. As much as we love Whoopi Goldberg and Swayze, may he rest in peace and love. You know, there's a way to introducing supernatural elements to real grounded stories, and this is definitely how you do it. I was definitely immersed all of the way in. But as a general sort of retort to your comment, I definitely agree. Sometimes it's nice to have a story that's just the story. Mhmm. We don't need the quirkisms. Mhmm. We don't need the stylisms.

6:48KT: Just just give us something tangible to hold on to it's nice that we had the star power in this but a lot of that had nothing to do with how great the film was aside from the fact that they're very capable thespians

7:02Oti: agreed Fully agreed. And I think one of the things that really gets to me is if I had watched this back then when I was in full Catholic gear mode, I would have taken a lot more from it or at least sort of hit a a deeper level Mhmm. Personally. Yeah. So the fact that I'm so removed from it now from that level and I'll just throw you back on I've talked about this a lot in the podcast where movies like The Omen and things like that, we really used looked through

7:31Oti: the end of days and the doomsdays, and there's a lot of talk about that, especially when you're gearing to the Y2K Y2K. Mhmm. If those people who are listening to this will would remember. I'm sure they're in a bunker with barely one radio wave. Yeah. So there was a lot of you know, our charts, there was, like, pamphlets being circulated, and everyone was fully being fucking prepared. So

7:52Oti: I believe that this movie would have been such a such a highlight for me.

7:52KT: So Y2K reached the shores of Kenya?

7:52Oti: Oh, it it sure did. It sure did. I was reading books on revelation, how to prepare, and how will be inserted microchips in, and I was a fucking wee baby shameless. I was super young. Yeah. So it's I feel like it's a wasted opportunity or at least in my view that I did not watch this earlier because I feel like it would have been my everything.

8:20KT: You know, there's nothing more effective than Catholic guilt. Right?

8:23Oti: No. There's not really.

8:25KT: I'm sure after this movie and after this recording, you're going to go and look for that emergency rosary you've got hidden somewhere. Actually, while we're on this topic, I did have a note that I guess we could talk about now, And it has to do with the scene where John is talking to a nun on the bus because he he's talking about the letters that he saw all over the apartment as well as through Art and as well as through Sam, his nephew, and he devised that it, you know pretty much encapsulated apocalypse

8:56KT: so the question that I have is isn't it a given that people maybe not too granular detail but isn't it a given that at least in 1998 people knew what the apocalypse meant?

8:56Oti: Yeah. Then again, we're assuming that these are people who are coming from sort of a religious background, at least, what it means fundamentally

9:15Oti: what apocalypse fundamentally means in religion. Mhmm. So we see detective Hobbs, Denzel, not really being that religious or at least not believing in a lot of aspects of that are not scientific and not factuals Mhmm. Are not fact based. Well, you know what the cops said to their facts. Exactly. So I can understand and I can accept him coming fully from that angle and not really realizing the the gravitas of what apocalypse would mean.

9:42KT: Yeah. But if we talk about the context of the movie and we're talking about America, the majority religion is some form of Christianity. So it was just interesting to me because we did have a lot of not a lot, but we had enough exposition to fill in the gaps for things that we might not have known. And I thought it was interesting because I I I would assume that generally most people would know what an apocalypse means, like end of days sort of thing. Maybe not to what the verses say in Revelations,

10:12KT: but at least to that point. So that was more what I meant. I wasn't expecting a full sort of Crane and Abbie situation

10:18KT: going on in, like, Sleepy Hollow, I didn't expect I did really expect a fundamental understanding of what it means, at the very least, in Christianity.

10:28KT: Because I I think we're all sort of born into this world being taught this nonsense. Yeah. I just I thought that was pretty interesting. Actually, while we're on the topic of, I guess, specifically Catholicism and, you know, religion or mythology, come and fight me motherfuckers, There there was talk about angels and demons much more effectively than Supernatural, much more effectively than the Tom Hanks movie franchise.

10:55Oti: Oh, you mean Dan Brown didn't lay that well enough for you? Okay. Oti Catholicisms. I only read Dan Brown novels.

11:03KT: So you know? Oh my.

11:07Oti: The the the the old Dan testament. Yeah. Yeah. There are people who think that reading Dan Brown novels is like the basic sort of. It's it's not even reading anymore.

11:19KT: Can I just say seeing Paul Bettany, you know, whip himself is a fantasy I never knew I needed? Mhmm. Right? Look at you frazzling me. Let me go back to my question. Because I never really understood. Are fallen angels demons or similar to demons as to the extent of your knowledge?

11:38Oti: They're pretty much demons. So Okay. The main OG, Lucifer, once

11:45KT: The main OG produced by Jordan Peele? Yeah. The spin off of the last OG with Tracy Morgan? Yeah. Delightful.

11:54Oti: Lucifer is they had qualms with god or whatever, and they didn't agree, and he came to earth and whatever. He was casted down to earth. Mhmm. And that's how he became, you know, that's also, like, like, retaliation. And then the angels who didn't agree with what God had done and followed him down. So those are the demons. Okay. So that's at least how, from my experience, how we were taught in Sunday school.

12:22KT: But that's interesting because at least in the Mormon religion, it was very black and white. It was like angels are good, demons are bad.

12:22Oti: Yeah. But where did demons come from?

12:22KT: But but that's exactly it. We're more focusing we're more focusing on getting our own planets of Kolob. We're not focusing because I don't think because I don't think in the mythology anyway that the devil even had henchmen. I think he just was expected to do everything like Santa. Like, he just expected him to carry out all of the evil for all of the world across all of the Hestra.

12:54Oti: Well, that's that's something alright.

12:57KT: We kept threatening religious podcasts. So there is a tasty morsel, friends and lovers. But let's get back specifically into this movie. We'll definitely dive into characters specifically with detective John Hobbs. But there are definitely some themes that I wanna talk to as well. So the first theme that I wanted to talk about is narration I feel like it's not really something that's done now and if it is done now it's too comedic sort of effect yeah I do feel like narration in this particular instance with Fallen

13:33KT: was used as exposition. So it helped to, again, fill in those gaps, whether it was in way of, you know, storyline or whether it was in way of just transitioning the scenes just so we understand where we're going and what we're working toward. I don't necessarily see that as a foundational qualm in my own household, but I don't know whether it was necessary. However, if you have listened to the Training Day episode, I, like your mother and your aunties and every other relative, am very basic, and I get swept up in Denzel.

14:13KT: He is very distracting.

14:15Oti: Mate, I think at this point, you just have something against narration. Do you remember the Million Dollar Baby? You're like, piss off this narrator. Come on now.

14:24KT: But my point is, I didn't get bothered with the narration in this movie. I didn't love it, but it didn't it wasn't enough for me to scream at my rooftops about it.

14:32Oti: I feel like it did a lot of exposition at either the start of the movie and at the end. But during, there was a lot of just commentary that didn't really add too much value, in my opinion, and that we could have done without. It was interesting to know the twist at the end, though, where KT would like to say it. Spoiler. Spoiler. Spoiler, Montfrey. It's Azazel narrating the whole fucking time. Yeah.

15:03KT: And maybe we can cover this a little bit later in the episode. So it made sense when he inhibited the poisoned detective Hobbs, but then he turned into the cat. So I would assume he would have had a different voice

15:18Oti: for then, but that's that's a baby Kwang. I think I think you just don't go into Denzel and not get anything out of it. Oh my.

15:26KT: Can that be our, like, sound bite? Can we get that merch? Can we get that t shirt, please? Yes, please. I think that's just fundamentally

15:35Oti: the basics of possession. In everyone's guidebook, there's like a picture of Denzel. If you possess this guy and you leave the body for whatever fucking reason, get out of something.

15:46KT: You know what? I you know, a lot of the times on the podcast, I playfully jest that you shouldn't, you know, release your screenplay to the world, but I think the world needs it. I think that is going to be the Martha Ex Machina for 2020 of you releasing your first screenplay. Because if that is what we're in for, I am going to strap in, I am going to strap on, and I am going to strap off your mother. Yeah. So I I guess

16:14KT: in a general sort of nutshell, I agree with you. But because Denzel was distracting me the whole time, it didn't bother me as much as it probably would if Denzel wasn't casted in this film. Yeah. I agree. I agree. That was a flaw. That was definitely a flaw. Yeah. So let's move on to the next sort of theme that I have here, and it's dissolving the realms of reality and moving more into the realms of supernatural. Mhmm. I guess this is really just to lay my Splooshies at the altar of Fallen because

16:50KT: I really, really enjoyed this film. I felt the same visceral experience that I felt watching Sixth Sense, maybe not to the highest crescendo in the final moment. But I definitely felt great watching this. We we watch stuff to watch stuff. We watch stuff to escape the world, but it is very rare to come across something that we watch, and I am tantalized every single second and every single scene of it. Mhmm. And that's how I felt experiencing this film.

17:22KT: Specifically in regards to, you know, the realms of reality, I really liked how the story was paved out. You know, I gave a reference to Ghost and how, you know, you get mugged in the middle of a street and it turns into a whole sense of hijinks, I think is the best term for it. I really liked how, you know, the story in Fallen really stayed quite grounded and it stayed quite real. So we start this movie off, and it feels very Silence of the Lambs, you know, with

17:54Oti: with Pasta Chianti. Oh my.

17:58KT: I think it's still inside Denzel. Alright. And we're introduced to the prisoner Edgar Reese. And, you know, Reese and Hobbs have this exchange. And, you know, it it feels very normal. It feels very grounded. It feels very real. And then we are at the execution of Reese. You know, in regards to the methods in which, you know, prisoners on death row go,

18:25KT: I feel like gas is something that is very heinous. But I'm not sure how the laws work in America and if that is something that is outlawed now.

18:25Oti: Usually get a choice, though?

18:25KT: I thought it was, like, dependent on their crime.

18:25Oti: Oh, no. I thought, like, well, execution is granted is a given, then you get to choose how you'd like to go, be it a firing squad, electric chair, gas,

18:46Oti: injection. I thought that was the case. Maybe not. No idea, though. I'm not sure.

18:51KT: I I do feel like we'll become a religion podcast before we become a true crime podcast, so feel free to send in any pertinent and verified information if you would like to supplement this particular arc. But, yeah, I guess in in that particular method, it allowed him the freedom to sing I got time on my side.

19:15KT: I do wonder if people just sang that to Denzel for decades to come. Yeah. Just meeting him in the street and that's the same. Just seeing that. Did feel satisfying with him singing it or did you find that a bit cheesy?

19:27Oti: Oh, it felt super satisfying. It felt full circle. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

19:31KT: I I appreciated it. I I I it might be a do you think it's a mood thing? Like, it isn't cheesy or it is cheesy based on your mood? I think it's the execution of it. Yeah. Right? And I think they executed it quite well. And if we're going back to, you know, the realms of reality and also the supernatural, I liked how we slowly moved into it. I also liked how we had Azazel, as we now know Azazel, flipping between different bodies. I liked how they didn't make it fully a pronounced

20:02KT: affair. So we knew exactly which body, you know, Azazel was moving into.

20:08Oti: And it was really it really tried to stay as grounded as it could without it feeling detached from the supernatural sort of elements. Yeah. Like, if it showed us Casper or a Casper's figure, that would have been like, what the fuck? Yeah. But I think they used cinematography really well here. Mhmm. Absolutely. By using coloring or

20:32Oti: just showing a different perspective of where if we were getting a view of Azazel or it's just an ordinary folk. And that's where they played us at the at the end Yeah. Bait us trying to guess if it was really Stanton or Jonesy Yeah. Who was being possessed. And it was really hard for John to determine exactly who Azazel

20:53KT: was possessing at the moment. And a lot of the time, especially if it's not grabbing my whole attention, you know, it it's very easy to try and theorize who done it, essentially, or where is it going. But I was really focused on the story. I didn't even care who it was. I just wanted to be able to experience what was about to unfold, whether it was Stanton, whether it was Jonesy, you know, whether it was someone that was never introduced until the final scene, whatever have you. It couldn't even been Jason.

21:28KT: It felt very Jason in the final scene where there was heavy breathing and watching the cabin. Jason's cabin in the woods if you nasty. But I really appreciated how, you know, there there were definitely mindful decisions on when to unravel the supernatural and when to relinquish the reality. And I I think a definite point to the writing in this is I think we get about an hour in, and that's where we're introduced to Greta Milano, who, by the way, is miss Honey and Matilda.

22:02Oti: You're recognized on the spot, and I have to question how many times you've watched Matilda to remember

22:08KT: that. Let's just put it this way. I can't eat mud cake without hating myself completely. But when we're when we get to a pivotal scene between Greta and John, she's pretty much having her angels and demons, you know, unraveling to John here. And it is done so well that I was completely in. Right? If it had been done earlier, if it had been done with lesser penmanship,

22:38KT: I don't think I would I think I would have automatically rejected the notion of this is angels and demons, and they're possessing people, and they're knocking people out. And it's a whole grander scheme of bringing down Babel, I think it was. And, you know, to to fully immerse me in a world, you need to you need to dip your toe in Yeah. Before the full penetration. You just need to get me there.

23:02Oti: Agreed. Agreed a 100%. And I think they did they did it really well. Mhmm. And I I was shocked that they made

23:11Oti: John realize what was happening really early in the movie. Mhmm. Because I thought that that keep that in just to keep the story going. Whole twist. That's the whole crux of it. Yeah. So if John realizes that it is really supernatural and he can and as a Azazel can move from one body to another Mhmm. Then I thought that was that's pretty much game over. Mhmm. But the one thing we do get to see is the fundamentally is the fundamental flaw Mhmm. In human fucking research. Yeah. We only focus on our fucking

23:43Oti: you know, you you only think that if it can move from human to human, that's all it can do. Yeah. You don't think about bloody fucking animals. Yeah. Cats witches had cats for Christ's sake. That would be my go to. I had to think I think I moved from person to person, then definitely can sort of it has to just inhibit any other life form, really. It's at least possible.

24:06KT: At least yeah. It's thinking that we're the only life in the whole galaxy to ever exist. If if we exist, there is a strong possibility. You're not that special, motherfuckers. There is a possibility that there is something bigger and more grander than you beyond, you know, the barrier of this earth.

24:28Oti: Agreed. Because it had no mention of it. We saw it really early in the movie where it's just a cat. Pick it up or not. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, you took him to a fucking cabin Yeah. In a bloody in the bloody woods. Yeah. Surely, there's life form out there Yeah. Apart from people. But I guess they just fully focused on, oh, if no one else is there, then nothing can happen. To be fair, I I do

24:53KT: definitely remember the cat part earlier in the movie, but I suspended that because it was a Sutherland, Goodman, Washington showdown, and I was all in. All in. Holes blazing. In the Bible,

25:06Oti: Jesus cast demons into bloody pigs.

25:10KT: Is that why pigs are seen as dirty? Dirty. Yeah. Really?

25:14Oti: Yeah.

25:14KT: I learned nothing in my Mormon church, Shalak.

25:14Oti: Jesus took big demons and put them in pigs. If if if that's possible, especially when you're in the world of theology, then you have to really think that this Azazel bloke can move into animals as well. And I guess if you wanna get

25:31KT: even more real, you've got pretty much the generally accepted King James version of the bible, but how many fucking interpretations are there of that? Just because you only have one instance in your realm doesn't mean there aren't possibilities beyond that, I guess is the point. Yeah. Wake up sheeple. Ew. I need a shower after saying the word sheeple. Use that ironically lemmings. I use that ironically. Please, if you subscribe to that, do not tweet me. I am absolutely loving this tantalizing theological tangent this is taking. I

26:14KT: love I love this movie. I love this film, and I love where we are going. Let's continue on the theological tangent, at least for one more point. It's the scene between John and Jonesy where they're working really late, and they start to get a bit more philosophical with their discussions. Because at least to a certain extent, John has confided

26:40KT: in Jonesy in what he's going through. Mhmm. Not full blown, like, there's a spirit hopping around people's bodies and following me, but at least enough for him to know that, you know, it it's not feasible and he's bigger. Yeah. Exactly. And he's not calling his house and running to pick it up and that sort of thing. Right? So Jonesy and John, they they have this debate. They have this discussion, rather, about trying to figure out what the point of life is. Mhmm. Why are we here?

27:11KT: I think it's John that makes a comment to the effect of, do we even care what ants do? Yeah. You know, there are so many humans in this world. Does a higher power care much to the effect of there are so many ants. Do we even fucking care what the ants are doing? Mhmm. Right? And then, you know, there's a retort within that discussion of maybe when you do figure out what this whole life is about, you die. Or even to a more pleasant sort of affect, you get promoted. You're sand. Yeah. Exactly.

27:46KT: I thought that was a very interesting concept. I don't necessarily feel like it's grounded in religion. It is a very interesting concept in regards to how we view the living and the dead and also how we reconcile the living and the dead. And I think one of the better things that I took from this movie is the friendship between John and Jonesy

28:08Oti: Mhmm.

28:08KT: Where they were able to discuss these things and understand the potential gravity of each situation without having to spell it out. Mhmm. So when it came to a tailspin and she's you get John running away from the coppers Mhmm. And Jonesy is there, you know, you understand, like, this this bond that I've I was fully bought into. Mhmm. I appreciated it. I understood it. And the fact that it was Jonesy at the end that Azazel opted to possess. Uh-huh.

28:42KT: You know, it doesn't it doesn't get any better than that. Yeah. Absolutely. And that's actually I know I said one more tangent, but, again, come and fight Oti in our emails. I just wanna I wanna stay in this realm for a little bit longer because earlier in the film, it was established that Azazel was not possessing John, and maybe it wasn't explicit.

28:42Oti: Possess John?

28:42KT: Well, thank you. I was going to say maybe it wasn't explicit, but they did say he couldn't possess him, and that's what we had believed a lot of the film.

29:15KT: So how then, sir, was he able to inhibit him? Was it a weakened state?

29:22Oti: He can he couldn't possess John while he was in someone else's body. But when he'd escaped a body or or let's say someone died and he's fully in air Casper mode Nice. Love that's when his strength is, like, 500 times or whatever. Uh-huh. And he could possess John. Okay. So it had to happen that the host of the body died Uh-huh. For him to become Casper

29:45Oti: Okay. To become his Casper form to be able to possess John because he's extra powerful.

29:45KT: Alright. I I still don't buy that as a story.

29:45Oti: They explained it that way. In his Casper form, he's extra powerful. Mhmm. So he could possess John. But without because John is a good person, has good characteristics, He couldn't really just jump into him from another body. He had to have everything, all his power, all his strength to be able to take him over.

30:09KT: I guess so. I I guess so. Maybe now that Denzel isn't on the screen, I'm starting to question things. But it did seem a bit you know, I guess the point

30:09Oti: Hey. Hey. Look at my face. I am your Denzel now.

30:09KT: You've always been my Denzel.

30:09Oti: I'm your Denzel.

30:09KT: You've always been my Denzel. I think I was trying to edge towards that John

30:35KT: was an angel. And I was I was bent on the fact that he was an angel, and that's why he couldn't be, you know, inhabited or possessed in any way.

30:35Oti: He just started being Castiel into everything. Castiel isn't in this mate.

30:35KT: I understood that reference.

30:35Oti: Oh, you did?

30:35KT: Yeah. And I'll see you I'll see you in season twenty.

30:56Oti: Season fifteen is the last mate.

30:56KT: Don't bet on it. Yeah. Expect a Dexter reboot on her out of nowhere. Yeah. Look at you at the pop culture.

31:06KT: And shout outs to anyone that's listening to this in ten years time, and Supernatural is still going on.

31:13Oti: Sound being weak as ever. Weak as ever indeed. Let's go back to the final scene. Did you think that John was actually going to poison himself to death?

31:13KT: No. I think it was bluffing.

31:13Oti: Thought he was bluffing. Thought bluffing too. I thought he was bluffing, and then I just remember the the start of the movie where he was struggling to walk, and I was like, oh, shit. He's actually doing it. Mhmm. So it's a really powerful thing. He you know, they they laid eggs that he wasn't coming back. His talk with Sam, I might be gone for a while. Actually, I might be gone for a long while. Yeah. All those moments just came rushing into me. I was like, oh,

31:53Oti: he might actually be poisoning himself right now, the bloody idiot. The bloody idiot.

31:58KT: Did you just call mine Denzel Washington a bloody idiot in mine own household?

31:58Oti: I I forgot to add handsome in there somewhere.

31:58KT: Okay. Yeah. Forgive him. I give you absolution in the house of KT. Mhmm. I definitely thought it was a bluff. I didn't think that he was going to actually poison himself because I feel I still feel like he had a lot to live for, but, you know, if he's done, he's done, and that's fine. Greta was waiting for her mate. Right? Come on now. You don't get no Greta. Oh, wow.

32:31Oti: Alaa.

32:34KT: Shout out to anyone that understands that reference and that song. Let's get into some characters, Oti. Mhmm. So we've pretty much already talked about John, and we're definitely going to talk about him with other characters. I do have a note here saying, don't save the poison detective, save the world. Mhmm.

32:55Oti: That's a Heroes reference. We love a good Hayden Panettiere reference,

33:00KT: if that's how you say her fucking last name. Oti starting in Patisserie, and that will be the first history. I I really I absolutely love John as the protagonist of this movie. You know, writing can take you to a lot of places, but it depends on the emotional investment that you have in a movie. As much as my one tiny cold, cold bitch heart has, once I've latched onto something,

33:29KT: I can give something a lot more graces than I could if I didn't care for it. And because I absolutely love this movie from the start, there was a lot that I was holding on to, and I was so excited to have the gradual reveals and, you know, the bigger reveal at the end of the movie. And John was definitely at the foundation of all of that.

33:49Oti: Oh, fully agreed. Fully agreed. I think the pacing just really helped a lot. Like, they didn't drag on to on an on an aspect of the storyline too much. Yep. They revealed

34:04Oti: all their cards at the right time. Mhmm. It felt really progressive in how they were doing it. Like, the pacing of it made it for me. Yeah. Absolutely. And I was like I said, I was fully shocked that they revealed a lot of the things that when they did because in any other movie, that's being held back Mhmm. Up until the literally last minute of the movie. So kudos to them, man. Kudos. Yeah. Absolutely.

34:29KT: And you just wanted him to succeed. Right? And, you know, a a lot of good narratives informed to you very early whether you should care or not care about a character, and I was cheering him on right from the start.

34:43Oti: Yeah.

34:45KT: So let's move on to his, you know, circles, if you're rounded and most welcome. We've got Art, his brother, and we've got Sam, his nephew.

34:56Oti: That was a messed up relationship. Yeah so we have John's wife leaving him because he's taking up his brother Art and the kid because it seems like Art is fully dependent on John for basic living So it's sad seeing that Arthur thinking that he is the reason why the wife left John. Yeah. And then John fully encapsulating the role of being a big brother Mhmm. Of being his protector Yeah. You know, of being his Butcher Mhmm. Saying,

35:29KT: are you welcome? I am most welcome, The Boys reference.

35:33Oti: Saying that, you know, if she really did love me, she would have been here right now. Yeah. So that was that was a really heartwarming

35:41KT: moment for me. And I think at the end of the day, you just gotta let bitches go. Mhmm. Just like Mother's Milk's wife. Oh, bloody hell, bitch. There's another Boys reference. I told you. I've got sustenance for Mother's Milk and for everyone else. Mhmm. Yeah. But definitely, it it was heartwarming to see the relationship between John and Art and how John would always make sure that Sam appreciated and loved his dad. Yeah.

36:11KT: Because I I don't think I think it might have been intentional, but it was kind of alluded to me that Sam was John's son. And then we later on see that it's actually Art that's the father. Father. And Sam's, you know, saying some not so nice things about his dad in the basketball court. And John pretty much strung him back into love Yep. Which is a it's a beautiful thing to see. And everyone deserves a John in their life and an Art as well. Mhmm.

36:40Oti: Indeed.

36:41KT: I do appreciate I wanna give some accolades to Sam because a lot of the time, understandably so, But a lot of the time when you're in a very dire sort of emergency situation, usually kids are lagging behind or they're making fucking noise in the middle of a bridge when they're not supposed to be making fucking noise. Bloody Quiet Place. That kid fucking dissolved it.

37:09Oti: Idiot.

37:11KT: I love that you expose that reference. I was just going to keep it. I was just literally going to keep it that way. It's it's it's a pain in my heart. It's been a pain in my heart for a long time. I think it's like I understand that kids can be if we're talking about the realms of writing, I understand how kids can be scared, but don't be dicks. Like, don't let the kids be dicks. And I really appreciated that Sam, in a very real and sad way, accepted that his dad was dead. And

37:43KT: it it was sad how prepared he was, but I guess also given, you know, his experiences with his dad, you know, that that kind of prepared him a bit better. And even though it wasn't Art's fault, as a kid, he definitely grew some resentment, but then John was there to make sure that that was quenched. And there was a healthy balance between, you know, the love he was receiving and the love that he was lacking. Oh, so true. It seems like he understood a lot of bloody life's nuances,

38:13Oti: the deeper ones that a kid shouldn't. Sad. And I felt sad watching him understand the scene the situation they're in. Mhmm. And then the last moment when John was saying goodbye to him, he's like, you know what? I'm gonna go back to sleep now and hopefully when I wake up, things will be would have gone back to normal. And I think that's the first instance we see of him

38:38Oti: acting and feeling

38:40Oti: his age. Yeah. If that didn't bring a tear to your eye, that was a moment for me in the movie where a kid has gone through so much he's taking it on his shoulders yep we saw how hard John tried to hide his emotional his emotional state when he found Art dead

38:40KT: That was my

38:40Oti: To put up a strong face.

38:40KT: That was my first tea.

38:40Oti: Yeah. And for the kid to just take it all on board, think that that's even more sad than him breaking down.

39:10KT: Yeah. Because he he's learned that his feelings won't change anything, and he needs to resolve it and and and deal with it and repress it like the rest of us adults, unfortunately.

39:25Oti: Yeah.

39:26KT: Kids need to be kids, man. Kids definitely need to be kids. And, you know, it it it was interesting how he talked about being tucked in at night. And then when John goes back to him, he says that he was getting tickled in the chest, and that's when we see the wire on him. I feel like there are some boundaries you just don't cross.

39:49KT: But like in like Pacino's character in the Heat, you don't have collateral. Like, if you're in for this world, you need to have people you don't care about because those are the first people that are used as hostage. Oh, for sure.

40:03Oti: For sure. I will see Greta living that life. She was like Amelie without all of the quirkisms.

40:09KT: Oh. I do definitely wanna give some credit to Greta because she literally opened a new dimension for us and also for John. Mhmm. She introduced this new world and and and and, you know, the angels and demons and how to vanquish them. And then she kind of just became the second, third tertiary character in the background. Yeah. There's no John Hobbs without Greta Milano

40:39Oti: agreed a 100% a 100 I feel like we should have seen more of her at least her playing a bigger role yeah her playing a bigger role at least in trying to apprehend,

40:51KT: capture, kill Azazel. At least they didn't make her the damsel in distress. She was she was that without the damsel in distress, but she was very much in the background because, you know, there was a moment when John was leaving and they had an exchange. And I'm like, wait. This is kind of Greta's moment. She's been preparing.

41:12KT: You know, she's a professor of theology or something. Right? Mhmm. So she's been preparing for this for decades when she finally discovered the truth about her father. Yeah. So she hasn't she's been in this game for a long time. And all of that glory gets taken away, she has to look after some man's nephew.

41:31KT: She I hope she got dicked down because that's the only consolation, Bryce.

41:31Oti: Well, there was a kind of a caressing hug at the end there, imply implying slightly that there was some affection. Whether or not that involved some back breaking activities, I'm not sure.

41:47KT: Well, to be fair, some good caressing from Oti can make me do a lot of things, friends and lovers. So I can definitely relate to that in that instance. But, yeah, I definitely feel like, you know, Greta had introduced such a big part of the story, and then she became nothing of the story. So as much as I love that showdown at the end, she was definitely more of a Dean and not a Sam in this instance. Yeah. Let's focus a bit on the police force. Mhmm. So we have Stanton who's

42:20KT: pretty much, you know, overseeing the whole police station. He's very much not wanting to shake the boat. Is that a Shake the boat, mate. I think that's a Tongan I think that's a Tongan proverb.

42:36Oti: Oh, man. Your phrase or mine, mate.

42:41KT: Before the Hues Corporation created that most iconic song, he was very much just trying to keep things underfoot and not having any sort of surprises through way of his workforce. It was a very interesting dynamic to see. Yeah.

42:56Oti: He had his captain lieutenant hat on all the time. Yep. Absolutely. And I felt like if he really cared about John Yeah. The way he implied at least the way it was implied at the start of the movie Mhmm. I I feel like he would have been more empathic to John. But he was just this is by the book. Put your gun down. Put your badge down. You know? Get out of here. I'll arrest you the minute they comes. You know? Your coin was at the house?

43:23Oti: Yeah. Like, he did not look for an explanation. And there's an inkling that he knows more than what's going on, especially when it came to the Milano situation Absolutely. Than he let on. Yeah. And it just seemed like they brushed out outside. He was fully he just he just saw John as another person under my under my command. Yeah. And that's it. And I guess without getting, you know, too real,

43:49KT: it doesn't matter what the truth is. It doesn't matter if anyone, you know, fucked up in a major way. Unless he needs a scapegoat, it doesn't matter if anyone's doing any dirt. He wants to keep his house clean. He wants to make sure that if there's anything from the higher ups, it's praise only. Mhmm. And I I guess, you know, it's frustrating, but, you know when you get to an age where you understand that the world actually isn't fair

44:19KT: and you should treat others unto yourself unless you've got lots of money and power then you can do whatever the fuck you want unfortunately plus there's sense a of the higher ups not really liking John in the first place well I think the point is he's very effective too effective he's a McNulty not Vic Mackey which is very interesting because you know, we have Training Day quite a not so far away from the makings of this movie, and that is a complete,

44:48KT: you know, one eighty. Yeah. And I guess let's talk about this for a bit and introduce James Gandolfini. May he rest in love and peace and power. It was nice to have that parallel, and it was very early in the movie. There was a scene with Lou Jonesy and also John, and they were talking about the police force. And I think the the actual phrase that Lou was using was cream. Mhmm. Do you take any cream off the top? And it was fun to see that dynamic because

45:20KT: we know Tony Soprano is definitely taking all of the creams and all the crops.

45:25Oti: Yeah. You know, getting Wu Tang's cream all over you is what everyone lives for.

45:25KT: Oti's cream is what I live for.

45:25Oti: But the way he saw or at least perceived on in John's state of mind of him being a cop Yeah. I expected Lou to be the one that Azazel possesses to get to at least bring John down because he was so interested in how John didn't poke his toe outside the bounds.

45:51KT: Poke his toe. Is that a Kenyan proverb of dipping your toe?

46:00Oti: Yeah. It is.

46:00KT: So I'm shaking the boat, and you're poking the toe. Okay. Nice.

46:00Oti: Exactly. Love it. Exactly. And I just love that he was all about the cream. He was all about, I need to understand a person's vice or a person everyone has to have a vice. Absolutely. Otherwise, you can't trust that person at all. They're doing much worse shit that you don't know about if they don't have any vices. For sure.

46:25KT: And there was also a reference, I think it was from Greta Milano, where she was saying this whole angels and demons nonsense is like the mafia. You don't see it. And I had a good giggle gaggle. I know this was well before The Sopranos, but I had a good giggle gaggle over that. It was laying the foundation. And we love a strong foundation Oti.

46:43Oti: Exactly. It's the basis of our house, mate. We'll take all of the slices.

46:48KT: Thank you. But it was very interesting to see the dynamics between, you know, the police and how helpful or how unhelpful they were. How did you feel about Jonesy as a partner? I think it was great. Yeah.

47:03Oti: Usually, see cops like John being partnered with people who didn't really care for the job, people who didn't really want to use their gray matter as Poirot would say. Oh, ho ho ho. It was refreshing.

47:16Oti: It was refreshing to get someone who was actually up for the job, did detective work. Mhmm. He was the Bunk to John. Oh, absolutely. Mhmm. He also remind me of Landsman from The Wire.

47:16KT: Come on now.

47:16Oti: You don't think so?

47:16KT: Nah. Landsman was just all about numbers and pleasing the higher ups, which Jonesy wasn't.

47:16Oti: But he threw a bone, and he gave an attaboy every now and then.

47:39KT: Landsman just didn't rub me the same way Jonesy did. I want to be able to immortalize this on the podcast. Jonesy is definitely character, and something that he said that I wanna immortalize on this podcast is someone playing with my dick, and it wasn't me. Goodbye.

48:00Oti: Oh, that's when Jonesy had pulled John off a basketball game to tell him that they'd figured out who had killed the Fast victim. It is a supreme line. You know, when there are lists of iconic

48:12KT: movie quotes, this should definitely be on it. Not just for the vulgar sort of nature of it, but the fact that he would say someone's playing with my dick and it wasn't me, and then he said goodbye. Like because I feel like there's nothing else you could say to the conversation. That is literally the like that should be your signature.

48:12Oti: Mine?

48:12KT: Yep. Like my MSN messenger? Yep. Don't you remember that? Wow. Mhmm. Did you have AOL or MSN or both?

48:12Oti: No. We didn't have Internet back then.

48:12KT: Yikes. Okay, Joe. Okay. Joe Oti Swanson,

48:48KT: making this a sad struggle podcast.

48:51Oti: Life is real, mate. While you're MSN and mate, Oti was out there doing something else. Goodbye. There you go.

49:01KT: There's your quote. I also wrote down these other quotes, and I don't know where they came from, but I thought they were funny. King Kong of assholes. Oh. And lord you copiously.

49:12Oti: Mhmm.

49:13KT: And we will continue to lord this film wherever we can. We sure will. With all holes blazing. Mhmm. I can't believe we've gone through so many podcasts and I've never used the phrase all holes blazing. There's a fast for everything, my dear. Yeah. Just like poking your toe Mhmm. In my shaking of the boat. Is there anything else you wanted to capture off Oti?

49:13Oti: No. I guess pop quiz, did you know that 500 cubits equaled

49:13KT: Sixth. Of a mile? Yep. I sure did. Are you sure? Because you barely finished that answer.

49:51Oti: You jumped in, mate. Really? All all is jumping.

49:55KT: For your love? Mhmm. Hop in. Mhmm. Feel your touch. Alright.

50:02KT: Well, as we continue to unravel, let's get into a segment we call For Your Reference, Oti.

50:02Oti: I am gonna go left field with this a bit, and I'm gonna make you, at least, refer you to The Omen. Oh. It was my bread and butter stuff growing up. Yikes. That says a lot.

50:22KT: That that explains a lot of the role play, but anyway.

50:25Oti: As fully engulfed in Catholicism as I was, I felt I found The Omen really intriguing. Nice. And it spoke of possession and the behaviors of that and to such a great degree. There's, like, 10 omens now or some shit. Yeah. So go and watch it. It's really enjoyable. It's freaky as I've not watched it recently, but I think you'd really enjoy it. There's as many omens as there are horcruxes.

50:54KT: Mhmm. The most powerful of horcrux being J.K. Rowling. So she can fuck off. Oh, wow. I said it. And I will also say I will reference Sixth Sense.

51:06Oti: Oh.

51:07KT: None the richer. Well, we've done it. It's a podcast as the kids like to call it. If you'd like to know how long Oti's cubits are on Twitter and Instagram, we are @ForYourRefPod. You can write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com. And we would very much appreciate and love if you could leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcast. And we'll see you next week.

51:28Oti: See you. Bye.

51:33KT: Hi.