Doom Patrol – Unprotected Flex

Full transcript of Doom Patrol – Unprotected Flex.

0:00KT: Welcome back to another week. And while you are perusing the For Your Reference bibliotheca colon DC, make sure to go and check out our episodes on Joaquin's Joker and The Suicide Squad, as well as Suicide Squad. Let's get on with the comic book filled show. Hey, friends and underground lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. It's your host, KT.

0:00Oti: And Oti.

0:00KT: Stretch out your limbs, oil your hinges, and meet me on Danny Street for unprotected flex. Lean in with frivolity

1:03KT: with the DC brought to life Doom Patrol this week. Woo hoo. Woo hoo hoo. And a yee hot hot doggy. What, what, what a show. Really, really enjoyable and fun. I don't think I've been this happy since we ventured rush hour. Oh, wow. Over and over and over again. Welcome, welcome friends and lovers. If this is the first time you are perusing the For Your Reference podcast, we take kindly to your kind around here. Every so often, I will enjoy a comic book adaptation. This is also the time to say spoiler spoiler spoiler. Otherwise,

1:48KT: stop blaming your daddy's. Stop blaming your daddy's. Stop blaming your daddy's. Pop quiz, Oti asshole. Who was I talking about?

1:48Oti: Cyborg.

1:48KT: Well, there you go. I would have accepted you as the answer as well. General stats and information. This show was released in 2019. Credit to the show for releasing a season every year since then, including the Pamela 2020 of it all. Creator Jeremy Carver in regards to the top billing stars. We have Diane Guerrero. Oh, Oti, Oti, Oti. I couldn't even get to first impressions before I say I was thoroughly impressed

2:29KT: by Diane. I I you know, we've seen her in Orange Is the New Black, but she really exalted so much fucking range in this show. Yeah. She's got that Tatiana energy. Oh, high praise. Speaking of high praise, go and check out Perry Mason as well as our Perry Mason episode, friends and lovers. Continuing along, we have April Bowlby as well as Matt Bomer, the Bomer man. And you don't hire the Bomer man just to hide his face. But even before the IMDb trivia, the KTMDB trivia,

3:04KT: I clocked the fact that Brendan Fraser and Matt Bomer probably weren't the people that were in the costumes.

3:11Oti: You know what's fucking that's wild to me because I just I don't know why I didn't even think about that because be it Mandalorian, I thought

3:11KT: We love Pedro Pascal.

3:11Oti: Right. Thought Pedro Pascal was in that thing the whole time. What's the point, mate?

3:11KT: No. Because when you get to a certain level of status

3:11Oti: It doesn't matter.

3:32KT: No. Anyway, I thought

3:35Oti: Do you not feel cheapened by the fact that the person you're watching, their actions, their movement isn't the same person that's, you know, spitting out the words?

3:35KT: Well, guess while we're also here, let's give some love and Splooshies.

3:48KT: Riley Shanahan, is the stand in for Cliff Steele as Robotman, and also Matthew Zuk who plays Negative Man. It's not fair. It's absolutely not fair. And if within our very humble, super nasty podcast, we can lay some accolades, but I definitely clocked that.

3:48Oti: You did. I think I was just being naive. I think it's only really Andy Serkis that if you if if he's in in casted in a role, it is absolutely him.

4:21Oti: See, and that's the whole point of having fun with B, you know, or at least to me. Mhmm. I just assumed that's the whole point, you know, going to work wearing a shitty costume and then doing your job. No. Because

4:35KT: sorry if this shocks you, Oti, but they also have stand in actors as well. I know. Okay. Because once you get to a certain status, they're not just going to stand there while someone else does the lines or they're setting up the lighting. But that is just behind the reference kimono curtain if you're nasty. All right, well, let's get into first impressions, Oti. It feels like we are well lubricated for this discussion. How did you feel about this, I guess, in way of comic book adaptations?

5:08KT: We love and laud The Boys so much. I think we we hold it to very high esteem. Invincible, we didn't necessarily care for. That's why you'll notice it's not on our main feed. We are very, very, very much enjoying Peacemaker, at the moment, but we we we're always aware of Doom Patrol. I just don't know why we never watched it. It's it's a bit less mature, but also Umbrella Academy, we've covered as well. So give us your first impressions, Oti.

5:08Oti: Part of me was always holding back thinking that it's just gonna be crap.

5:45Oti: Yeah. I I think it was one of the shows that it either launched or it was in the DC sort of platform before. You know, they tried to do their own streaming thing? I was like, I don't know if they're just making shit to to make shit. So I was like, yeah, I'm not gonna do it. Got picked up by HBO. Was like, okay. Still wasn't tempted enough until we give it a go finally, and now I'm like a full Doom Patroller, mate. Nice.

6:11KT: Have you opened that Reddit thread? Yeah. While we were watching this show, I said, I feel like this is a nice companion to anime because there there may not be weeaboos, there may not be people that would watch anime, but they would enjoy the frivolity and the nonsense that happens in anime in this show.

6:40Oti: Yeah, I could see that. I think one of the things that really just caught me is they like you said at the beginning, it really just leaned into the ridiculousness. Oh, absolutely. And I think one of my favorite people, Cliff Steele, Brendan Fraser is amazing in this. Yep. You It just took me back and I felt like, bloody hell. I don't know. I didn't know that I missed Brendan Fraser in my life.

6:40KT: I think that's how we all feel. Right?

7:06KT: It just helps patch up all the stuff we're not ready to talk about. Tonally, I think it took us a couple of beats to realize how much it was leaning into the frivolity. But as soon as we latched onto it, we did not wanna let go. I have some fundamental qualms, some Delroy Lindo quarrels with Chief or Niles, and we will come through all of the characters. He is the great exemplification of a white savior and colonization. And he would absolutely be the sort of person that would use the word natives and savages in the textbook.

7:44Oti: I think he even used some of those when he was still being an explorer mate.

7:51KT: Some may call explorers, some may call unwanted settlers. I said I had a lot to say and don't worry friends and lovers, there is still more steam in Niles's direction. But I absolutely love this show. It definitely came at a time that we wanted to dive into another TV show. I do wonder how we would feel if this if we had watched this before The Boys because The Boys really forms the tapestry of the For Your Reference podcast, Mother's Milk, Oti and otherwise.

8:24KT: But yeah, everything everything it was serving, we were eating it up and it was so delicious.

8:33Oti: Yeah. I think one of the things that I also appreciate about this is it's not super action oriented. Thank you. It's very character driven. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I love that about it. I didn't know that I needed a superstool. A bunch of misfits, misfit characters, backstories and all. Yeah. And it just surprises you in a very, very good way. And I guess maybe it's a budget thing.

8:58KT: We are we can't all be Game of Thrones. But I because I lean towards character building and, you know, following wholly realized art for characters, I enjoyed it. Like, I was conscious of the fact that we weren't having super awesome action scenes all the time. But because that's not my thing, I actually really enjoyed it. Mr. Nobody, you know, there was this there was this very wholly aware narration throughout, especially the earlier seasons. And he talks about all of this mindless, you know, character exploration. And I'm like, I am here for this.

9:35KT: I am here for the Oedipus rats. I am here for the Revelations cockroaches. I am here for exploding inside and outside of a burrow. I am here. I am here. I am here.

9:48KT: This this definitely has a place in our heart chambers, and we really gobbled through a lot of the episodes very quickly.

9:48Oti: We did. And part of me was scared because after having such a strong first season, I was I was a bit scared of what would transpire in season two and three. And I was just wondering, are we going to where is it gonna fall off? Yeah. Or are going to start having a lot of the quarrels and the qualms? Because I think the first season was perfect to me. Yeah. But we

10:19Oti: do see a bit of a dip in season three for me. There's some issues in season two that we'll get into, but I think season three is where I really just started to feel a bit, okay, maybe they would have taken a different direction here and there. But all in all, very strong.

10:36KT: I don't know, Oti. You kept saying I'm sick of Niles. I'm sick of Niles, which I do agree. But you kept saying I'm sick of Niles. I'm sick of Niles. I'm sick of Niles. And then when Laura De Mille came up, you're like, oh, no.

10:53Oti: Like, Niles is a character. You embraced it. Okay. He's not a good dude. And we come to realize that pretty, pretty quickly Yeah. No one in the team realizes who exactly Niles is in terms of his character. Uh-huh. You know, and it's Mr. Nobody's ultimate plan, you know, to to reveal all this. Yeah. And I think the way they played that in season one, was like, okay, that's very good. But also finding out more about Niles is the more I became disenchanted

11:22Oti: by all of it Okay. In terms of his character and how how all this works. Yeah. And if there's a if if they make a character like Niles,

11:32Oti: what's the payout? Is it for the audience to feel like they understand him? Do we should we empathize, sympathize? Should we feel angry? Do we hate him? And those are some of the questions I was trying to answer myself in the head. And I was like, I just couldn't get there. I couldn't get there with Niles because one minute he'll try and do something very, very wholesome. And then the next, it's fucking brutal.

11:56KT: Can you just dabble into your X Men bag for a second? Maybe it was because of the wheelchair, but I did think a lot about X Men, also with the elements of them being misfits and that sort of stuff. But was Xavier that cruel? He wasn't. Right? Yeah. Or did it just not have as much depth as this show?

11:56Oti: He was not as cruel as Niles. He made some tough decisions,

12:22Oti: but not decisions just so that I need a way to outlive my daughter by one day. Orchestrating

12:29KT: situations and tragedies that would allow for this to happen. And it's not because I thought because we said spoiler. I thought they were just circumstances that presented themselves and that's how he came to find these people. But no, this was a deliberate plan in order to gather and and I guess recruit the ranks. Maybe he's like a merging of Xavier and Magneto.

12:56Oti: Maybe so. Actually, that's a good example. I think the one thing that you realize, especially with Cliff Steele's character and what you sit back and start understanding what exactly Niles did, and Niles is like, oh, his his accident should have been in, you know, in the race track and not with his wife and kid at the back. Yeah. And then lying to Cliff that his daughter and wife died,

13:21Oti: then for wanting him to come and find out that that's not the that's not the whole truth. Yeah. I was I was I was not understanding him at all.

13:29KT: I don't even know I don't even know why they decided that he like, why was it so important that they needed him to die to take his brain? Maybe it has to do with the with the characters. You know, someone like Cliff Steele would suit the Tin Man. Yeah, but I guess just going back to Niles and we're talking about Niles near the end of season two, which is really where we see the end of Niles, even though he tried to veer off Hamiga himself in season three as well. But he,

14:04KT: like at no point do I believe anything he did was justified. At no point do I believe that any of his intentions were justified by his actual actions.

14:16Oti: Neither did I. I think when you sit back and and him being scared that I'm scared of my daughter, that's my daughter's gonna end the world. Yeah and it and his daughter comes up with imaginary imaginary creatures because she was lonely alone for ninety years

14:35KT: I'm like me yeah me we have a lot to talk about we have a lot to talk about I guess while we're talking about Niles, let's talk about Dorothy. I found it hard and you know, I'm all about the fantastical whimsical leaning into the salaciousness and frivolity. I am all into it. When I buy into it, I am all the way in. However, I found it very hard to treat Dorothy as a child, even though she presented as a child because she had lived for ninety fucking years. We saw San in

15:13KT: Princess Mononoke otherwise known as Mononoke Hime and she was out in the bush. She wasn't out in the bush for ninety years but you could see she went through some pain. She went through some shit. Even if Dorothy never really got to explore Danny Street or anywhere in the outside world, the fact that she was locked up and she only saw her dad, what every few months if he felt like coming, That would do a number on his psyche. So I don't believe that she's this innocent child

15:46KT: that is so helpless and I know a lot of it was Niles trying to project that onto her, but it's literally like, be a father, dude. Your one job is to be a fucking father. I don't know. At some point, after ten years of your ninety years, you've kind of given up. Like, how does it take that long? And and he was meandering the whole time. He had like an immortality necklace. So at that point, he didn't even need to worry. Yeah.

16:18Oti: I'm just glad that he make Niles black.

16:21KT: Because you'll be defending him right now. Yeah. Yeah. You would.

16:25Oti: But wow. I think the fact that we have Dorothy, this super powerful kid. Yeah. And Niles is scared, you know? And we get to see glimpses of Dorothy's mom, you know?

16:25KT: Can we also acknowledge that Dorothy is powerful because of her indigenous heritage,

16:43KT: not because of her colonial heritage?

16:46Oti: Yeah. Thank you. Like, you know that she has the Candlemaker Mhmm. This undefeatable super weird creature.

16:57KT: Not weird. A monster created in response to colonization. Oh, yeah. Hey, friends and lovers, thank you so much for joining us. If you've been joining us in a linear timeline, we did most recently cover The Matrix. And I did talk about how sometimes there are layers in stories that are presented, but sometimes some people like to take it on surface. And if you couldn't denote that that was colonization, that's on you, bro.

17:28Oti: Fair enough, mate. I think to me, Niles would have just been better off being a father to Dorothy because he wasted all his lifetime only for him to give up his his immortality at the end. Yeah. Then what?

17:45KT: For what?

17:46Oti: All those years. Why did you do that eighty years ago or, like, nine years ago? Why did you do that? Why did you have to do that after you've ruined the lives of five people? Cliff would still be probably a a deadbeat dad. Larry would still be probably fighting against himself. Yeah. But it's their choices. Yeah. It's how they wanna live their lives. So who the hell are you?

17:46KT: And I guess that goes back to our

18:12KT: spicy topic of free will. Niles, Niles, Niles, Niles, he very much can be casted in the upcoming Avatar sequels. Like I was waiting for all of the white men to leave the land and for him to wave to the aliens on the foreign. Like, he was he was so lacking in self awareness. And I think this is part of the reason why I get frustrated with characters like Niles. It's the pretension.

18:45KT: It's the pretension and the

18:45Oti: I don't think he lacks self awareness. I think he just wanted people to view him differently than he was. Because no matter how noble your intentions are, you willfully allowed these people to be captive under false pretenses. And he he he tried to justify it as if it was a noble act, you know, getting these people from the Bureau of Normalcy and doing them a favor when they never had a choice in the matter. He's the one that put them there in the first place, so mate. He

19:18Oti: just did the bare minimum.

19:19KT: Exactly. And then you have Joshua Clay who was his right hand man at the time saying the reason why he can sleep at night is because he doesn't know the details. Well, take some personal responsibility, but then he was rubbing shoulders with Niles. So I guess you can't give

19:19Oti: He just didn't want to admit it.

19:19KT: Okay. I guess while we're here, how did you feel about, I guess, the first draft of the Doom Patrol?

19:42Oti: That was some heart wrenching stuff. Yeah. They set up this Doom Patrol that didn't work out. Niles put them in a home and just Left them there. Yeah. Like Dorothy, you just left them there. Yeah. It was wild.

19:59KT: And he was planning to have Jane there? Yep. Which is unbelievable. We still don't know why he put Jane there. Maybe she wasn't making as much progress as he thought

20:09KT: she would be or maybe she was regressing in some ways and he felt like he couldn't help her. Don't don't be like foreign aid and step out as soon as it gets dangerous. If you're there to help, you're fucking there to help. Yeah.

20:09Oti: Classic he he he used the classic UN tactic, you know? Go there, call some shit, call the star when things go awry. Be the first ones to use the private jets

20:09KT: Exactly.

20:09Oti: To leave. Far out, man.

20:09KT: But it seems like Niles is the new corporation, isn't he?

20:43KT: I'm sure we'll continue to talk about Niles. Everyone at a daddy complex in regards to Niles. But which character do you wanna go into next?

20:52Oti: Oh, let's start with my least favorite.

20:56KT: Okay. Is that like eating your least favorite vegetable first? Yep.

21:01Oti: Better get the butt taste up fast. Alright. Rita Farr.

21:08KT: Okay. So let's say this, and maybe it's just the maturity of the comic books, friends and lovers that have extra glasses, pull them up and feel free to write to us because we haven't read the comic books. Maybe it's just that the comic books are a bit more mature. However, a lot of these characters, in particular Niles as well as Rita, have almost unforgivable, like, cardinal sins that they've committed. Like like, you know, if you talk about, like, OG, like, Catholic, like, sins that you can never forgive.

21:46KT: In regards to TV characters, Rita Farr is absolutely up there. Yeah. Baptism wouldn't wash that way. No. She was a pseudo Maxwell to Niles as Epstein.

21:58Oti: True. He she got young aspiring actresses to go into some director's room. Yeah. You know, and just so that she could benefit at the end of And she said that the first time the lady was successful and she was like, oh, this justifies what I did. Yeah. And the more she continued, the worse it became. Yep. I'm like, mate, how do you sleep, mate?

22:26KT: Yeah. Because like, you know, in seriousness, but also in jest, like I talk about characters, especially women that aren't for women. But in a very serious note, I just couldn't I couldn't jive with Rita's character. And I think the way they presented it, if I can remember correctly, they showed us her essentially pimping off these women, and then they showed us her sad backstory of essentially her mom pimping herself out for her. Yeah. So they did this contorting, this emotional roller coaster for Rita's character

23:03KT: when I already put her in the bin ready for garbage collection tomorrow. Like, I don't know. There are some things that I don't think and, you know, on a happy day for giggle gaggling, we can talk about cheating and Fatal Attraction. But there are some there are some subject matter that are just way too heavy that even a fighting donkey can't help. Because she was she was willfully allowing vulnerable women to be taken advantage of so she could take advantage of that. Mhmm. So we get introduced to her filming Forbidden Congo. And

23:40Oti: she's super mean to the cast and crew she even gets rid of one of the crew because he had one hand and after that everyone had a feeling about her everyone felt a way about her Yeah. And then she goes on and falls and becomes into this thing. I'm like, okay, so far I didn't even okay, mean pass on, you deserve that. But that was to find out that that was barely the tip of the iceberg in terms of her character. Yeah. And behavior?

24:12KT: Oh, my. I think initially, we were frustrated because go and check out our Twilight episode, but it's like the Rosalie effect. Usually, it's female characters that are introduced and they're bitchy for no reason. And then you find find out later that they're bitchy within justification. Right? But there was so much meandering between Larry and also Rita where they just weren't accepting the role that they had in this world that was being played out, right? So there was a lot of hesitancy. So I think initially we were frustrated. And then when we

24:49KT: peeled back the layers that we were asking for, we were disgusted.

24:56Oti: It's like Mr. Nobody was trying to play us as well.

25:01KT: Yeah. I don't know. I I just feel like unless it's in a South Park format or like an Archer format, there's some things that are just too heavy that you just can't lift out even in a comic book nonsense sort of show like Doom Patrol.

25:16Oti: Yeah. But another qualm with Rita is throughout the whole span of the three seasons she well at least for the first two seasons she doesn't grow at all yeah we get glimpses it's with her it's one step forward two steps back five steps back

25:33KT: five blobs back and

25:36Oti: that's fine usually because we're still trying to you know building the characters trying to understand but then once they reveal those layers you're like hating a inch by inch no thank you and by the time season two ends you're like okay far out Rita is not a good character she does she's not even progressing she's not embracing the world she still has a lot to deal with yep Because so far, out of the other out of the five, she's the only one where I was like, okay, maybe whatever

26:04Oti: Niles did to her was, yeah, bloody justified. Yeah. But once we get to learn more and still she keeps on fighting it like she actively fights developing yeah she you know be it Cyborg trying to make her or train her yeah it doesn't help because at the end of the day she's still feeling lost she doesn't know why she doesn't belong

26:27Oti: she can't open up the lotus gates she's not ready yeah and we find out exactly why in season in season three and that's where my big qualm comes in because season three we find out that all this was because Rita Farr had memories that she'd forgotten she existed back with the Sisterhood of Dada. Uh-huh. And we're like, okay, that's fine and that's excellent. But then we we spend

26:50Oti: the whole sort of season three in that world, and it's fully focused on this character which a) didn't really care about that much gave us nothing gave us really yeah it gave us nothing but even then in season three she actively fought development yeah When she was given multiple opportunities to be the bigger person she usually didn't take it up until the last moment where you're like of course they're gonna do this because it's bloody Doom Patrol because comic book. Yeah. But it still just rubbed me the wrong way.

27:21KT: And it's like we we kept getting well, I was already sick of Niles in season one, but we're both collectively sick of Niles in season two. And then we got what we wished for, but then Rita was the fucking focus. But it made sense that she took the pseudo role. It does. It does.

27:41Oti: She might as well be related to Niles, and we don't know yet.

27:46KT: Yeah. Unless they had some sort of arrangement going on. Who knows? But, yeah, it was really frustrating because it's like if Larry was to lead them, like, just it wouldn't make sense. And those two

27:59Oti: had been around the Doom Manor for so long because they didn't wanna fucking deal with this shit. Yeah. And to some extent, you accept that. You know what? You wanna lock yourself away? Fair enough. But when we go through this journey, you know, and character development is hard, but when we go through this journey where we get characters like Jane who has to deal with 64 different personalities,

28:23Oti: and she's battling it out every single time trying to be better, to develop, trying to do everything for Kay. Mhmm. And then we come back to Rita Farr, who's just blobbing. Yeah. Not trying, being scared at every single time, not wanting to do missions, always questioning, always being the person resisting any sort of mission all the single time without offering an alternate solution. Then go away. Exactly. Go away. I think one of the best moments for me was was when Cyborg called her out on it.

28:58KT: Yes. Thank Thank you. Even though he's a big baby as well. Yeah. But it goes to show you. Baby recognized baby? Exactly. No. But, oh, that was a great moment. There there aren't many great moments of Cyborg, but that was a really good one.

29:11Oti: Because usually with this sort of stuff, you you're you're scared whether or not it's that information is also is also pertinent to the cast within that world? Or is it just us feeling weird about Rita and all her dilly-dallying and questioning everything? Yeah. But I was happy. I was so glad.

29:34KT: You know what will make you even more glad? If we move on to another character. Yes, please. Let's but let's stay in the useless camps. Let's talk about Larry. Okay.

29:43Oti: I feel sad for Larry. His backstory is difficult. You know, he he couldn't accept who he was, and then he died.

29:53KT: Wow. Thank you.

29:55KT: Al Helios of the For Your Reference podcast. Thank you.

29:55Oti: You just imagine. You're still battling, and you're not even figuring out who you are, and then everything changes. And you're this mummified sort of person. You can't remove

30:09Oti: your bandages or you I understood his pain. I got it. And I was like, okay. You know what? Try and hopefully by the time we get to because I know those are three seasons hopefully by the time we get to the end of the third season we get to see more about him trying to break free from that and accepting who he is yeah and what my frustration with him came to was his constant battle with the negative energy not wanting he's lived with that for many, many years.

30:33KT: But I think it should be called the positive spirit. He was the negative spirit.

30:45Oti: But they are one, so negative be negative, mate. Okay.

30:49KT: We've got some merch ideas. Thank you, Oti. Put it on some bandages and sell it on Etsy.

30:54Oti: It's just and that's why the frustration comes in with people like with characters like Rita and Larry. Their unwillingness to accept the world they're in and their willingness to Face their demons. Yeah.

31:07KT: Well, that's exactly it, friends and lovers. Like, obviously, your coming out story is your coming out story. And it is a collection of nature versus nurture. And even though there aren't any sort of tangible barriers anymore. And John, within the contemporary space was ready to live out and happily. Right. And Larry wasn't ready. And I think, you know, in a doom purgatory sort of sense, he could never really move on because it was kind of funny, but also sad to realize how long he had been

31:51KT: not even facing the issue because we we see the team coming back from space and that lady was one with her spirit. And we're like, what the fuck, Larry? Like, because I guess up until that point, because again, we haven't read the comics, we thought that he was just going to live with this forever. Yeah. That this was always going to be his battle and his struggle, but it wasn't. And I think a lot of the time, especially within the Doom Patrol,

32:18KT: it was so easy to like look at Jane and think she has she's the most complex and she's struggling the most. But Larry and Rita didn't want to do the work. And that showed in so many ways. Yeah. And it took a baby spirit. He couldn't even handle like a full grown spirit. He had to take a little baby.

32:39Oti: Yeah. I think Keeg coming into the picture, that was cute. You know? Yes. Very cute. It kicked in his paternal sort of instincts, and we saw him trying to get rid of Keeg when he was still in the cocoon, and he couldn't, and he had to carry him around. That was one of the cutest things I've seen in this show. And then once Keeg is born, we're back to old Larry where he's like, I don't want this thing inside me anymore.

33:03Oti: I don't want it. I've had negative spirit. I don't want this. When did Chris Rock get casted into Doom Patrol? Ugh. Just wait. I'm just wait until season four.

33:14KT: I heard it's a spiral.

33:17Oti: And then you you get Cyborg, who is flawed. I think he was the voice of reason in so many instances. It was up to Cyborg to dock some sense into Larry.

33:28KT: But Cyborg said, like, Jaden Smith level tweets without having the grounded life experience. That's the difference. If someone tries to give you it's like when you hear like, well, I guess when Bieber was young, but you hear like, you know, prepubescent teenagers singing about love. It's like, you don't know a thing about love, little kid. Like, you don't know what it's like. But he's just an icon living. But, Ursi, you're an icon chilling.

33:59Oti: But, you know, and I know we'll come to Cyborg. He is flawed as for him to be the voice of reason in so many instances pivotal instances in the show tells you all you need to know.

33:59KT: Well I guess so in my IMDb trivia scrolling

34:13KT: apparently Cyborg isn't even part of the Doom Patrol. That like it. And this was supposed to be spawned off the Titans. But I'll leave that sweaty dark corner for all of the nerds to decipher. But let's let's continue on to Cyborg. You know, our our mantra in the For Your Reference podcast is nobody can Fuck you up more than your parents. And while we do stand by that, there is personal responsibility. And Cyborg was he was so reluctant to take that personal responsibility.

34:48KT: Because my daddy did it to me. Because he was so mad at the world. He was so well, really, he was just mad at his father. But you're the one that punched him to oblivion, bro.

34:59Oti: To some extent, I can try and understand his frustrations. He's a cyborg, know, he wants to feel human and I think one of the best scenes even for you, think at the time you were like oh I need my tissues, please, was when his dad was explaining to him why he made him someone like Cyborg. That was because as a black man in this world, you'll be unseen. And and Silas is a big character.

35:29Oti: He's he's he walks the S.T.A.R. Labs. You know? He's the big guy. And for him to be called up by a by a new god and be tackled down, you know, he explained all this emotionally. Yeah. And I felt like it it could actually reach Cyborg. But, of course, it didn't. Yeah. And that response didn't warrant that didn't warrant that moment. That that space that Silas had created, that that that sort of emotional space, it felt really, really wasted by Cyborg's childish behavior.

36:01KT: There was such a considered space that Silas created. And, you know, we laughed about it, but it was annoying seeing baby cyborg, like just throw all of the toys on the ground. And, you know, there's a real conversation about being young black and a boy in the world. But there's also just decollery by young kids throwing toys on the ground. So sorry to tell you, but there was definitely a dichotomy that was going on there. And I I would hazard to say in the realms of this show, Cyborg or Victor Stone

36:40KT: had never really had to go without, had never really needed, like, never really experienced a life of struggle to the point of self reflection.

36:40Oti: Yeah. He's always had a silver spoon, mate. Always.

36:40KT: And then if he's whining, it's about trivial shit, teenage shit, which to be fair, young kids should be able to agonize over and not real heavy shit. But there was definitely a spoilt sort of circle that he was brought up in. And unfortunately, like you said, it was a beautifully cultivated safe space that Silas created

37:20KT: and he just tore it down and he ruined the moment. It was such a beautiful scene that I would say applies even beyond this comic book adaptation of a TV series that spoke on so many levels and, you know, especially where we are in the world right now.

37:40Oti: It was a beautiful scene to have. It really was. And and that was just one of Cyborg's flaws. I think one of the things that he constantly wants is to be like, you know, normal. And then we finally get to see him, you know, as normal as can be, at least appearance wise. His head looks so small. Yeah. I'm like, oh, is this CGI? But it's just him. It's it's it's wild because

38:11Oti: he then is finding it harder to be without Cyborg who's been a part of him for such a long time. Yeah. Just being Vic Stone is no longer cutting it, you know? He's feeling like, oh, he's trying to pull up the grid, but no. There's no grid.

38:27KT: Well, I I think we both anticipate he's going to revert back to being cyborg, right, in season four. Not sure what season, but definitely, I think. Because he's currently useless there. He's absolutely useless. And I don't know why he was offended that they thought like, why why didn't why wasn't he self aware enough to know that he was useless as well?

38:27Oti: Oh, he is. They didn't bring you along for the dance, bro. He

38:52Oti: can do a mean Google search, mate.

38:56KT: I guess while we're here before we move on to the last characters, Cyborg's girlfriend, her backstory was was very heavy as well. Man,

39:10Oti: all these characters just have serious issues, mate. Yeah.

39:14KT: But like Cyborg felt like he could save her, which I guess because she's hot, he felt like he could like save her and it's like, she didn't ask you to do that. You don't know what you're doing and you're just trying to make yourself be useful.

39:29Oti: I think this one also one of the moments where we get to see Cyborg sort of start growing, maturity where Roni is being mugged and Cyborg is like, oh, come on. Protect you. Runs over. Roni is already neutralized as threat, but it's a kid. And Cyborg is like, I'm calling the cops. Roni is telling him, no. You know, this is the opportunity to grow from it, and maybe there could be someone better that could do something different and

39:54Oti: Vic was so insistent on no cops now you know commit a crime you're in jail yeah and then once the table's flipped and it's Roni on the receiving end of finding out Roni is super bad or has done some dodgy stuff Yeah. A simp goes ahead and kills someone. The cyborg is now conflicted because, oh, I love this woman. Yeah. Even though she's killed people, multiple people.

40:21KT: Civilians posed with the posing of the picture. Yeah. That was some ducks. Yeah. That was like the nail in the coffin, if you'll pardon the pun.

40:30Oti: Yeah. I was like, fuck. Walk away, mate.

40:34KT: But I think it's like for for for Victor Stone, him specifically, not just the alter ego of Cyborg, but for Victor Stone to not realize that calling the police on this kid isn't the same as justice for other kids out there. Like, that's a level of maturity he needs to get to.

40:54Oti: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I I think this is where because character development or growth isn't linear. And it's fully obvious in this show because we've spoken about Rita, Larry, all just going one direction and then taking five, ten steps back. With Cyborg, or at least with Vic, we get to see a semblance of growth or at least he thinks about every aspect of it. Yep. I think it's different for him because the group see him as the actual superhero or the one with the powers,

41:27Oti: like useful powers at the very least. So it creates a he's assimilated this sort of pseudo leader in the group, which might not be the case, but he's gotten it. And I think that's forced him to sort of start looking at himself or start analyzing situations better. And, in season four we get to see more of the Victor Stone that is not blaming everything on his father because we are past that

41:52KT: well it's like even when you can't blame your father anymore you need to take on that personal responsibility and he never really did that. Yeah. Like,

42:05Oti: there was this episode where they would they had this there was this episode about the flagellation where we get to see these characters face their subconscious selves. Uh-huh. Everyone's in the room talking about the emotions and the, you know, with their subconscious self and dealing with the issues or at least the subconscious self telling it out like it is. But then we come to Vic, and he's like, nah, I can do this and you can't nothing. Nothing's wrong with me. I'm like, me.

42:33Oti: Just accept things once in a while. Yeah. I think one that's one of the strongest episodes because it lets the characters know just how fucked up they are Yeah. And what they need to do to improve themselves. Time's up, not in a hashtag way.

42:50KT: Check out the Canadian show Jann, friends and lovers. Very good. Show. Yeah. Very good. Cyborg, not very not good. Let's move on. I want to finish off with Jane. So let's talk about Cliff Steele.

43:06Oti: Cliff, Cliff, Cliff. He was not a good dad. You know? He thought he wasn't as bad of a father until he started remembering a lot of things But that's on him to fix not for Niles to point out and make a justification of why he chose his life

43:20KT: No true true true 100% agreed

43:24Oti: but we come to a space where Cliff is struggling to understand that some of the blame is also on him yes I think yes Niles stole your life the life you could have spent with your kid but at that point he was going to see strippers and leaving the kid on the in the car Yeah.

43:24KT: That was the last kind of gut punch because we we kind of felt all the things and it was even hard to enjoy

43:51KT: Cliff as a character, you know, for the fact that he wasn't earning up, as you say, and as I say as well. But that was the last sort of gut punch when we realized that Clara was in the car as well. And it's like and he's like, I need to live this shame every day. And it's like, the interesting thing was he didn't even feel shame. How wild. Wild. Wild. Wild. Wild. Wild.

44:17Oti: Wow. Yeah. I think that that's one of the things that takes you aback when you think about Cliff and to also realize that at least we get to see him try and accept that responsibility Uh-huh. And he tries to reconnect with his daughter. But it's a battle because then we have

44:35Oti: there's a lot of caveats with him. Yeah. You know, as soon as he starts trying to be one with the daughter and try and do good by her there's this oh nah you're dying mate and now you need to you know he needs to stop taking Parkinson pills yeah which affect him you know he doubles down on his past behaviors

44:53KT: Yeah. And, know, with Rita, we said, one step forward, five blobs back. Cliff is one step forward, five strippers back. Or I guess in his new iteration, five webcam girls back. But if anything, Cliff has proved that men do think with their brains, just their dicks, because he literally only has a brain, yet he still needed the function to function. But, yeah, Cliff is definitely a highlight of the show. There

45:23KT: there are a bit of cringey moments where you learn more about the character and then you're like, should I really be laughing and giggle gaggling along with them? But you kinda just need to accept that, like, these are shitty characters. But also at the same time, if I was Cliff Steele, I would never forgive someone like Niles. Yeah. And it's good that he doesn't forgive Niles. You know? I love how Niles visited him of all people. Can you help me?

45:51KT: That was a ridiculous scene. Oh, but I loved it. Like, I I loved his scornfulness, like just telling him to fuck off at every adventure. It got to a point where I was like, you need to, you know, put your back into it and do some action to those words. But for the most part, I really enjoyed Cliff. Someone who I really, really, really, really, really, really love the most in this show was Jane. Every time, like, her screaming out in excruciating pain, instant tears for me.

46:18Oti: Yeah. Her backstory is something else. I think that's where we really empathize with her. Yeah. You know, every encounter she has that triggers a different personality, we are rooting for Kay and Jane and it's hard and not Hammerhead. It's hard not to feel for her or even cheer for her, you know?

46:46KT: And I think also at the same time, there was a bit of push and pull in regards to Jane's character, but so much there was so much growth that was happening. Even if it felt like we're seeing the same Jane or she's reverted back, it was tantamountly like, this could have just been a whole show about Jane, but I guess that's Orphan Black. Yeah.

47:04Oti: Orphan Black for that. I guess if you contrast, like, Rita and Larry, like, they were they were nowhere near the starting line. Right? Yeah. But we see growth with Jane. You know? Jane doesn't want any physical contact or whatever.

47:17KT: It makes sense, though, especially after seeing Miranda because I think a lot of the assumptions we had on our part was Jane was created as a response to the experiments that were being done to her as a metahuman, right? That's what we had assumed, but it was actually as a part of a relationship and a fucking asshole boyfriend.

47:37Oti: Yeah. And once we got introduced to Miranda, was like, okay. She went through some shit. Yeah. But she pulled back. She really tried to rally the troops to be to live the semblance of a normal life. I'm doing normal life in quotes because normal is bloody overrated.

47:53KT: And Is it normal or is your normal normalized and not acknowledging others' lives?

48:00Oti: Yeah. True. But we get to see her really struggle with that and we feel for Miranda and we understand that in that position, really tried to be open even when it came to the orgy where we were like

48:15KT: But can we we we need to talk about that. One of these days, friends and lovers, we need to have a real conversation about the differences between being sexually frigid, which there's nothing wrong with, and also amicably speaking about your sexual desires in a very mature way. Yeah. Because the way it was sprung upon Miranda was not fair at all. Yeah. And then And she was being sex shamed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. We're not about that. Yeah. That that was messed up. We're about that kinky kind of shame.

48:47Oti: Yeah. That was messed up.

48:50KT: And an interesting element in regards to Jane's character and the underground was Miranda was a Miranda. And at first, initially, we thought it was the dad, the presence of the dad. And then it became something more abstract and it's the pain, the pain that has, you know, been festering and had been growing with all of these alters, it didn't stop the pain from amassing to an insurmountable, ungrievable sort of pain yeah

49:24Oti: yeah something different it's not a personality it's just the whole experiences that Kay had to endure yeah which created this

49:36Oti: but we get to see and this is where we come to see Jane shine as well because once she realizes that hey something's definitely wrong yeah you know especially she had to swim up the well you know fight to get out once she understands that hey this is not Miranda yeah this is something else she rallies the personalities and I think this is where we get to see she will do anything for Kay yeah her sole existence is for Kay and she understands that and she accepts that yeah and this is where we get to see it's a problem with other personalities

50:10Oti: because they

50:11KT: want to have their own like self serving sort of thing but you're there for Kay so if Kay doesn't need you and fucking fortunately you need to go. Yeah. Yeah. And when

50:23Oti: Jane was thinking that, hey, the once Kay doesn't need her, then she'll disappear. She was like, I don't wanna disappear, but if it makes Kay better Yeah. That was the end goal, wasn't it? Yeah. For Kay to be better. Yeah. And for Kay being better means all the personalities disappears, then so be it. Yeah. The other personalities didn't wanna hear it. They're like, nah. Especially Harrison. Yeah. You know, who had some influence with the other alters being like hey let's do our own thing Kay wants to get rid of us yeah I'm like

50:56Oti: hey that's not the point of why you exist in the first place yeah you know I was shocked that Hammerhead went with our plan as well because I thought she was sort of similar to Jane. Always looking out for Kay. It's always about Kay. And surprised me that Hammerhead just went along. Was like, it goes against everything we've watched so far.

51:17KT: Yeah. And there was there was definitely some conflicts, even just watching Jane because you can only imagine how much Jane had to go through throughout the years as, you know, looking after and being the primary. But then if you can't do that anymore, then your role does come into question because you're not being effective. Right? And we see that throughout the show. But again, I just wanna lay my love and Splooshies to Diane because you can actually see the tonal shift in Jane, in Diane playing Jane in season one when she's super jilted and

51:57KT: she's so closed off to the season three Jane where she still has fun with Cliff, but, you know, she she's definitely not the same from where she was. She's still protective, and I think that's also what she learned in the flagellation as well, that she can have fun. It's okay to have fun as well. Yeah. I don't know about lint pocket candies. I don't know what my rankings are for lint pocket candies and loose pill pockets.

52:24Oti: But definitely by far one of the best characters we've seen in any com comic sort of show. Oh, absolutely. So much depth there, so much pain. It's sad to see her like that, but what a show it makes. A show it makes indeed.

52:41KT: We're gonna finish off in a segment we call Fuck Niles. Just kidding. For Your Reference,

52:49KT: Oti.

52:49Oti: I'd like to reference The Boys.

52:49KT: Nice.

52:49Oti: Yeah. If you enjoy this, you'd slide right into The Boys world.

53:00KT: Slippery Mother's Milk. Yeah. Very nice. I will reference a non comic book, United States of Tara. Oh. We do love and laud an ever eternal Toni Collette, so definitely check out that show.

53:16Oti: Good reference.

53:16KT: Thanks, Oti.

53:16Oti: I Just remembered how it ended and wowzers.

53:23KT: Wow. Well, for a fee, I can tell you how everything ends on Twitter and Instagram. We're @ForYourRefPod. Write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com. We're also on Diane Guerrero for all of the awards. Thank you very much podcast if you like to leave a rating and review. And we'll see you guys next week. See you. Bye.