Cube – Partner in Prime

Full transcript of Cube – Partner in Prime.

0:00KT: Holy cats. It's another week in the For Your Reference podcast. We just wanna say thank you and welcome to everyone that has tuned in to our podcast. We do have a Patreon, patreon.com/foryourreference, monthly episodes, video specials, all of that nasty splooshy stuff. Right, Oti?

0:00Oti: Mhmm.

0:00KT: Well, while we continue to sit in that nasty splooshy, let's get on with the episode. Hey, friends and trap lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host, KT.

0:00Oti: And Oti.

0:00KT: Establish the pee pee corner and distribute the saliva flowing buttons.

1:01KT: As we navigate boundless human stupidity in the 1997 film Cube. Woo hoo. Woo hoo hoo. Let's get into the general stats and information. This Canadian film was directed by Vincenzo Natali. In regards to writing, we have Andre Bijelic, Vincenzo Natali, as well as Graham Manson. In cast, we have Nicole DeBoer, Maurice Dean Wint, as well as David Hewlett. Mhmm. This film was released in September 1998 with a Canadian budget of $365,000 and a worldwide gross of $565,000. Okay. I would say this falls into the pussy valley of cult classic. And

1:50KT: that is a sentence you will never hear on another podcast. You are most welcome, friends and lovers. Okay. Let's get into first impressions. If you are a purveyor of our podcast, Oti is the very learned, well breathed in every way that, you know, he he's he's the one that gives us our our movie credibility and you've mentioned and referenced Cube a lot. So I'm very excited to get into first impressions. And before you continue, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler or trap trap. Trap.

2:25Oti: I love love Cube. I think it's one of the movies where I've watched it more than five times.

2:34KT: And that's a lot for Oti. Because I I know, especially with for me, like in the Howl's Moving Castle, five doesn't rate. But for Oti to watch something more than five times, that's the equivalent of someone else's 20. Yeah. Because it's weird.

2:49Oti: When I first watched it, I was quite young and I think I recommended a couple of friends. And each time with each recommendation, they'll be like, yeah, let's watch this together. So it just ended up me watching it over and over again after each recommendation. So it's just one of those movies where I think given the budget and given the constraints it had, I think it did fairly well. The storyline, the plot was good. And I know rewatching it now, acting was a bit, hey, how you going? But

3:21Oti: it still stayed true to me that, you know, for the time and for the budget, I just love it. I can't really fault it for that.

3:21KT: Oh yeah, I absolutely agree.

3:32KT: First time watch for myself, Oti has been hyping up this film a lot and it lived up to expectations. It was a great film. As as you say, it was very self contained, if you'll pardon the pun. Mhmm. But but there was a lot of fun to be had. There was a lot of commentary and you know that to my kink. All about that commentary babe. So I really enjoyed it. I feel like, you know, it's hard not to have this in the periphery when you're watching similar films like Gemma Chan's Exam,

4:09KT: for example. I always mentioned El Hoyo, like it's I can see now why you would mention Cube every time we're covering a similar sort of film. The Circle is also a good one, which we haven't covered yet either. But I'm so excited to talk about this film because it means we can relive the experiences, albeit some very annoying, frustrating characters as well.

4:37KT: You know yourself. You know you're Quentin, so it's fine.

4:37Oti: No, Oti Quentin Tarantino.

4:43KT: You are Quentin.

4:45Oti: Oh, Quentin Jerome. It's alright.

4:50KT: Oh, but this film is great. I'm glad that I've added it to the mantle of must watch films per Oti's Criterion non official collection.

5:00Oti: Mhmm. Pretty soon Scorsese will ask for a tape, mate.

5:00KT: Okay. We have many unsolicited tapes

5:08KT: ready to distribute when you're ready. Mhmm. Surprisingly, not surprisingly, there have been sequels to this film. And I do believe there is a Japanese one in the works as well. So I guess my question to you, sir, is have you watched any of the sequels or was it just Cube in heavy rotation?

5:08Oti: Cube in heavy rotation.

5:31Oti: Okay. Nothing

5:32Oti: I haven't dared watch a sequel yet. I think that'll come later.

5:32KT: Yeah. And it's like our Airplane episode where a lot of people were telling us to, you know, watch the consequent subsequent Airplane film. But I just I was glad living in it. I'm glad living in Cube because we've tried sequels of films and then it completely just brings down the whole experience. True. True. You talked about the acting, which will definitely come to, but I wanna talk about just the directing style. There wasn't necessarily a storytelling, so to speak, but how did you feel in regards to the visuals and the directing in this film?

6:08Oti: I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the directing. I think it sort of put in sharp contrast. So I mentioned the acting was a bit, hey, how you going? But what he achieved in directing this I think was was quite a feat because not one minute did I feel that the story was lagging, I feel that I was like oh something is subpar and I couldn't put my head around it It just felt, yeah, we kept on moving. The pacing was really good. There was a lot of tension building. There was a lot of moments of anxiousness in this film.

6:44KT: And I think it did very well with the score as well as the visuals. You know, I had the same sort of sensations that you would get out of a good horror film or even a thriller. There were there were definitely moments, you know, nail biting moments and just wanting to get out of that scene Yeah. And into the cube if you're nasty. Yeah. I absolutely agree. I really enjoyed the visuals.

7:09KT: Did you denote any meaning in the colors of the rooms?

7:09Oti: Weird. It's I didn't want to think too much about it, you know, not like, you know, Inside Out where they had like different sort of color and people characteristics for each. Yeah. But it was quite clear what each emotion was. Yeah. I know. I understand the sentiment.

7:29KT: We speak on different layers, friends and lovers. Uh-huh. Well, I am learned and I did read the IMDb trivia. But before I go to what that says, I tried to find meaning in the colors, but then it got to a point where when I would expect something to happen, it wouldn't necessarily happen. So I found the coloring to be a bit inconsistent. And according to the IMDb trivia, it doesn't really denote to anything as opposed to the foreshadowing of what's about to happen into the scene. So like the red sort of rooms is where

8:06KT: there was going to be some sort of umbrage, some sort of conflict between the characters or even a death.

8:13KT: So that's why Kazan didn't like red rooms, but it didn't necessarily denote to the inner thinking of the cube, if you will.

8:13Oti: Well, yeah. Because I don't think we got into that many red rooms and there were a couple of deaths.

8:13KT: There were a couple of deaths and this is actually quite interesting and we'll focus on this when we talk about the characters. But I don't know if you noticed, it was very tangible to mine self that a lot of the deaths and a lot of the demises

8:41KT: really had nothing to do with the cube. Yep. More so human nature.

8:47Oti: Humans are crap.

8:49KT: Because there's some big man tings going around. Some big man Quentin tings going around. So the oh, it's because that comes to the human nature and, you know, what it takes to survive and, you know, maybe not the most deserving survive. Yeah. But overall, what a great film.

9:10Oti: Agreed.

9:11KT: I wanna talk about some themes before we go to the characters. We've kind of already revealed how we feel about some of them. But I wanna talk about the broader context. If you're following us in the space time continuum, we did just cover Alive, which is based off of true events, but it does talk about making hard decisions. Right? But succinctly in that episode, you were talking about how that event could have been prevented. In our Patreon episode, you talked about Stowaway

9:43KT: and how that particular event could have been prevented. Right? So you're always trying to use your Oti Poirot skills. Right? And to me, to me, I don't care because where we are and how we survive is the most interesting part. But in honor of you, sir, let's focus on the broader context. We have Holloway who kind of wasn't wrong, but she was painted as the conspiracy person. And don't look at me, I am not the queen of QAnons.

10:16KT: I'm queen of deplorable places, but I'm not the queen of the QAnon. But Holloway seemed to think it was, you know, part of the inner workings of the government. Quentin was a bit more of a sadistic rich fuck, and it was all for their entertainment. And it was really interesting, even though I don't necessarily care because we are where we are, as we like to say.

10:40KT: But what did you think about the broader sort of context? I guess my first initial question is, do you think it enriched the film in any way? And second, would you like to give your personal opinion?

10:51Oti: A, yes and yes.

10:54KT: Your personal opinion is yes. Yes. Very much, thank you.

11:02Oti: But I was fully on board with Holloway trying to figure out the reason. Because once you understand the reason why you're there, then you can walk towards a solution. You just don't

11:02KT: Sometimes, not all times.

11:02Oti: Most of the time. Most of the time. The reason for them being there, everyone had a purpose. Unlike Quentin's thinking when he was like, oh, mate, this guy's just deadweight. Everyone had a reason to be there.

11:02KT: I didn't know I hired

11:27KT: Maurice Dean Wint to be in this podcast today.

11:34Oti: I'm just saying. She came from an aspect of let's try and understand the reason why we're here, then we can start peeling back the reason as to why or how we move forward. And I think that's such a good way to tackle any sort of problem.

11:34KT: I feel that there is value in understanding

11:52KT: the context, but I don't necessarily care for and don't believe we need a lot of screen time devoted to the broader context. That wasn't necessarily done in this film, but we've given examples where in other films, did take up a lot of real estate in the film. And it came to a point where it was important because we learn more about Worth, right? So it was important to know

12:19KT: where everyone was coming from, but at the same time, it doesn't change the fact that they're there, That's my point. So, you know, the question that I posed to both of us, I don't believe that enriched the film in any way, but I also don't think they took it unnecessarily too far. So for me, I don't really it doesn't really bother me whether it was a government conspiracy or whether it was some rich motherfucker, a la The Hunt.

12:45Oti: But it sort of painted a picture. You you can sort of see the different personalities in the room because you had Holloway who rightfully thought, mate, this is a bigger government conspiracy. Anything that because, you know, you can't trust the big man. Yeah. As as we have learned from Judas and the Messiah. And then Quentin comes because he's a public servant. He thinks, hey, we're all just coming in, pushing our pouncers,

13:12Oti: and checking out. You know? We don't care about whatever, anything. There's no bigger story. There's no bigger picture. People are just doing their job.

13:12KT: No. But it was also and we talk about this in A Few Good Men. Quentin needed to believe that the system that he was a part of worked. So even if there there were lieutenants, generals, whatever at the helm and they were corrupt as fuck, he wasn't going to say that because he needed to upheld his brothers. So he that's what he was saying. He doesn't see a scenario

13:43KT: where his fellow men would be like that. That was his whole argument.

13:43Oti: Yeah. But it sort of had this connotation of where he has this fundamental way of thinking that doesn't allow him to perceive that the people with differing opinions on on the government because he's part of the system he thought everyone else is like him not merely because

14:07Oti: it's broken or anything like that, just so that he feels anyone around his circles doesn't give a shit about anything else other than doing your nine to five and then you check out.

14:07KT: Yeah. But he wasn't necessarily

14:18KT: like Ethan Hawke in Training Day, was he?

14:18Oti: He wasn't, but

14:24Oti: but you get my point. Like, at least from that sort of view, you can start seeing how each person can bring something to the problem solving. So if it's if it's something someone like Quentin who, you know, doesn't really care about a bigger picture and he only wants to focus on what's in the room,

14:43Oti: then maybe you give him a task that's suitable to that.

14:43KT: Well, your your answer was yes, which didn't answer the question. What do you believe the broader context was since you like to, you know, theorize over this?

14:43Oti: I think it's part government funding that's just fucking people up.

14:43KT: Again, I don't know how we got Quentin on this podcast. You'll be you're you're showing your worth right now, sir. Oh. I also wanna give kudos to the pacing of this film. You know, in the world of generic stories having two hours as a standard,

15:24KT: I really enjoyed every single minute of this film. Everything that was revealed within this film was done at a time to heighten excitement. And we were we were we were unraveling character motivations. We were learning more about the Cube as a whole as the film progressed. So I thought it was very dutiful in the way that the film was paced as well. Okay. Before we get into the characters, I wanna talk a little bit about the cubes in general

15:53KT: and I guess the traps that we see. Do you have any favorite traps?

15:53Oti: I think my favorite was how Ren

16:00Oti: sort of got killed off Mhmm. Where they just squirted acid on his face and

16:06KT: Register your interest for Splooshy Mountain, friends and lovers.

16:06Oti: Yep. What about you?

16:06KT: Oh, I think it's it was more the circumstances around this particular trap. But this is further on in the film after we've met Kazan, and it's a voice activated it's a voice activated trap and all of them are slowly trying to make their way through. And Quentin was one of the last people, and we kept joking about Kazan or anyone just being like, you got this Quinter. You can do it. You got this bro.

16:46KT: Like the idea of him being pricked at any moment was really satisfying to me. And then we've also got the ones with the cubes where you can put like potatoes and carrots in. Yeah. I thought that was quite fun to see visually. Yeah. That was. And then there was a similar slicer where Quentin went in and his leg got scraped.

17:08Oti: Quentin had a couple of close calls, didn't he?

17:08KT: Well, it was satisfying

17:13KT: to see him get hurt, but then he's man feeling. So he like takes it out to on Worth for the most part, which wasn't fun to see. It was like, once I saw him got hurt, I didn't enjoy it because I knew it was going to hurt someone else.

17:13Oti: Yeah. Yeah. He he really had this toxic

17:31Oti: vibe going on, you know? Oh, absolutely. Part of me was like, this guy should have realized sooner and just let him fucking die. The best part would have been them shouting something, anything, while he was trying to climb down the the room with a voice activated sense of thing.

17:49KT: Oh, yeah. Absolutely agree. Okay. Let's continue with characters and we might as well go to Quentin because I think he's going to find his way through any of the characters we talk about.

17:59Oti: Yep. He is a dick. And he's not even a useful dick. There's nothing worse in the world than a useless dick, friends and lovers. I think one of the first things we realized when you got introduced to Quentin is he wanted to be he always just filled the room. He just kept on talking. Yeah. Just fucking air. Yeah. Nothing important. Just relax. Calm down. I'm like, mate, you're the one that's everyone else has come. Stop telling people to relax.

17:59KT: Yeah. Exactly. It's infuriating.

18:28KT: I wrote down, Quentin has the least to offer, but is talking the most.

18:34Oti: Yep.

18:35KT: I couldn't agree more. He's like for all of our office drone friends and lovers. He's like that motherfucker in a meeting that has nothing to say and he just repeats what everyone else is saying. Really thinking he's contributing, but he's doing nothing. Yep. Except getting in the way. Mhmm. Like, the the one that's asking 10 questions when there's five minutes to go.

18:55Oti: Yeah. And those guys just just want to fill up the room like with nothing. Yep. But they just can't keep quiet. And that's Quentin.

19:02KT: Him and his bravado, him and his toxic masculinity. I don't prescribe to toxic masculinity, but he was a small man. And he wanted to let everyone know that he was a small man. Disgusting. Even when he was talking to Holloway and he said, the only reason you even exist is because I keep you. Mhmm. And before that he'd said, listen, woman. Is that your key and feel, bitch? Like that's your way of saying listen woman to me, but it's in a safe space. Yep. And

19:36KT: this is, you know, as much as I didn't care for A Few Good Men, that's where the accolades lie with Jack Nicholson's speech because he makes the same sort of sentiment. The reason why you want me up on that wall is so you can live your comfortable life. And I I do believe albeit disgustingly misogynistic, Quentin was kind of riding that same sort of wave. So that is credit to a snarky Sorkin, even though I'm not a snarky Sorkin gal. But Quentin was essentially trying to say the same thing, but it came off very

20:12KT: like, I don't think he realized he was projecting at the same time. You don't go throwing rocks, bro.

20:12Oti: True.

20:12KT: Because it shows even more of a spotlight on you. He was he was trying to paint that sad spinster sort of picture with Holloway, that bleeding heart, you know, sort of narrative of her needing a good fucking. Right? But like your wife left you as well. Like, what are you hoping to achieve when you dig so maliciously against another person that leaves you vulnerable to be dug at as well?

20:41Oti: Yeah. I think part of it is also just that he didn't want to be challenged at all. Yeah. He just wanted people to go with what he says. He's the leader. Yeah. He's the leader. What he says goes, don't fucking question it. Don't challenge it because I'm the boss. You know? He has that air around him.

20:41KT: Well, try and answer me, sir, because

21:06KT: rejected you many times. What value did Quentin bring to the team? Because as we talk about the rest of the team, it is overwhelmingly clear what value they bring, but it's very it's it's it's it's a bit muddy here. I'm not sure. What what value did Quentin bring?

21:06Oti: I think his physicality.

21:26Oti: I think he brought that in spades in this, and you could see that he escaped being trapped in those cubes twice. Pretty closely. Not one of any of the other guys would have done that. The fact that he he got left he got left alone somewhere randomly towards the end, and he still found his way back. He has some resourcefulness. Granted, he's a dick, but he's craps. He's a scrapper.

21:54KT: Okay. So he's not a useless dick. He's just a selfish dick. He's a selfish dick. Which I would equate is the same value of dick.

22:01Oti: At the end of it, if it wasn't his his personality to get in the way, I think he would have made it up to the end. Because I Just feel because of how fucking the kind of person he is.

22:10KT: But I feel like Worth could have had that physicality if Quentin didn't keep beating him up.

22:19Oti: Worth saw this in January with the whole thing with life and he was just ready to give up. Yeah. But now that we understand who he was and how he unfortunately inadvertently

22:30Oti: contributed to the cube, it makes sense why he was such a nihilist about it.

22:30KT: It does. But here you're sitting in the room with, you know, four or five other people that want to get out, that want to help. But he didn't do shit up until the very end when he was, like, forced to. So are you, sir, president of the Quentin Club? Because that's what I'm hearing.

22:30Oti: I'm not saying Quentin is great. I didn't like him at all. Okay. But I'm saying everyone there had a value, Quentin included.

22:59KT: No. That's a hard disagree. He is all the mustache twirling villains. And I'll give you that, that he had physicality and he had strength, but it was kind of outweighed by his selfishness and him wanting to start a new Adam and Eve situation with an underage girl. True. Yes. Exactly. Like, he was playing God in that scenario. He was picking and choosing who was going to make it. And, you know, far be it from me, if you've heard me in many of our episodes, there is value in everyone.

23:41KT: Right? And I mean that more in the senses of you shouldn't be choosing who dies Mhmm. Unless, Stowaway, but we're not talking about that today. Like, are ways that you can equate how to make hard decisions, but for someone to outrightly just do that and physically strong-arm everyone into it, that kind of becomes its own thing. And it frustrated me at how far Quentin got in this film, but also also though, that's fucking real life. It is. Unfortunately, there are motherfuckers that that their whole modus operandi

24:20KT: is self preservation. And they will step on other people to get there. Yeah. In underdog ways like The White Tiger, but in frustrating ways like Quentin.

24:32Oti: Fully agreed. And one of the things that Quentin as well is, he You know when when Holloway was was scaling down the edge of the cube and

24:41Oti: they're trying to pull her back in and she I knew it was gonna happen. I knew it. But Quentin was the only one that could reach her. Had a really good

24:41KT: He also fucking dropped her.

24:41Oti: He did. He did. And that's just a good show. He had issues. He because Holloway had crossed him and said and dropped truth bombs on him, there's no way he would have let that go.

24:41KT: Yeah. But that's what I'm saying. Small man. He's a small man.

24:41Oti: I'm agreeing with you. He's a small man. But he's the only one who could have moved that fast to grab Holloway before she fell.

24:41KT: Which was all for fucking naught because

25:17KT: like, are you are you filling the air? Are you filling the air right now, sir?

25:17Oti: No. No. No. I'm alright.

25:17KT: Alright. I've had enough of Quentin. Let's continue. Who would you like to go to next, my love?

25:28Oti: Oh, let's do Holloway.

25:28KT: Alright. Let's do Holloway.

25:28Oti: Yeah. Holloway was good, I think. She brought that sort of caring that you don't like to see in movies.

25:38KT: Woah. Woah. Woah. Hey. Hey. Hey. Mate, we we covered

25:43KT: Stowaway, and you are all over Anna Kendrick. So don't even come here and pretend.

25:43Oti: Anna Kendrick's character. I wanna make that very clear.

25:43KT: Oh.

25:43Oti: But yeah. Holloway, how she took Kazan and she was really caring and she was like, yeah, I'll deal with it. Don't worry. Kazan will be my responsibility. I think she was great. It's really sad that she died the way she did. Yeah, exactly.

26:10KT: My unnamed assailant. I loved Holloway. I don't think that she had any pretension about her unless they needed to make a hard decision about survival, she wasn't going to, and she was going to maintain justice for all of them. And I loved and appreciated that. And she showed her worth not only in her vocation as a doctor, but also in her level headedness, albeit conspiracy theory and tinfoil hat of it all. But I I do feel like she had a very pragmatic approach to what they were facing.

26:48KT: And she was always willing and ready to put herself in the ring or the cube, if you'll pardon the pun. Like, there were moments where they were fighting over who would go through the next room to test it and she would go. So she, I don't know, we'll have to go through the rest of the characters, but I would say she had the most to offer. And she continued to offer it liberally and indiscriminately as well.

26:48Oti: Well, there's a moment where she gave everyone a fright because Levin had calculated

27:15Oti: a prime numbers. Uh-huh. And then she had a button in her mouth, and then she jumped into the cube, and then she started choking. Yeah. And I was like, oh my

27:15KT: Are you gonna fault a bitch for choking?

27:15Oti: Yes. We make it? Stop all that shit.

27:30KT: If it's not a merch, it's gonna be a sound bite, friends and lovers. Striking Urethras if you're nasty.

27:36Oti: True. She bonded quite well with Worth as well. I think that's the only moment we got to learn the first names. Yeah. Which was Helen and I think David for Worth.

27:36KT: Alright. Yeah. Exactly. I feel like she was the MVP. I feel like she was the most valuable cube player.

27:51KT: In aside from her skills, I I okay. I would rather be with Holloway than anyone else. Well, let's come to let's let's go to the next ones. Before we do, I wanna spotlight Ren. Like I said, I'm KT Trimagasi in El Hoyo. I would be Ren in this film. Okay. I I didn't survive. I didn't I didn't make it very far.

28:19KT: But I I I loved his whole sentiment because he was like, nothing else fucking matters. Focus on what's in front of you and get what needs to get done. That's me. That would be me in the cube. Yeah.

28:32Oti: And we saw how far that took him. Yeah. He just wanted to be a one man bandit. Yeah. Use the teammate. There's a reason why you're there for that number of people. It's not a one man army.

28:40KT: It's also from a story point of view because if he had progressed more with them, it wouldn't have been as difficult. True. So from a writing point of view, it made sense why Ren didn't continue. But I just wanted to give a spotlight because I really appreciated him as a character. Let's go to someone else that is of high value, Levin.

28:40Oti: No, she's the MVP.

29:04Oti: I don't know why you get this Holloway thing being the most

29:07KT: But she needed some encouragement and she needed some mentorship as well.

29:07Oti: That doesn't make her less valuable.

29:07KT: Well, I wouldn't even try, mate. You were trying to build a case for Quentin. So I don't even know why you're bothering.

29:20Oti: Wasn't. I wasn't. With with Levin, they do not survive. They do not go to any other room without her. Yes.

29:28KT: But then they had to switch tack because it wasn't just prime numbers and don't quiz me, but I do know what a prime number is, friends and lovers. Don't email us about it.

29:28Oti: No. She was good in the skills that she had.

29:28KT: I a 100% agree with that. She's good in the skills that she had, but I'm talking about an all rounder and that's Holloway. But in regards to Levin, yeah, brilliant, brilliant mind.

29:57KT: And, you know, it gets to the start of the film. They're not necessarily stranded on an island. I didn't get far in Lindelof's Lost to know if everyone brought their value. But to be fair, Daniel, daddy, Kim kind of his cheekbones alone provides all the value for my sploosh mountain. Wow. But it it was clear that government conspiracy, rich motherfucker or otherwise, people were curated for this particular purpose. So even when she's like, I'm just a kid, I go to school, I do that, I'm just a normal kid, right? It started to permeate

30:35KT: that everyone was going to provide value. I think Quentin was in the wrong place at the right time, maybe. But Levin was going to bring value in some way. And it was very rewarding to see her feel like she's also contributing as well that she wasn't just that kid, right? And she was able to help the team as well.

30:35Oti: Yeah. Agreed. I think she

31:00Oti: did the most in this movie.

31:00KT: Okay.

31:00Oti: It's not an opinion. It's a fact. Don't say okay. Think I needed your approval. I'm just stating facts here.

31:00KT: Alright, dude.

31:00Oti: But anyway, we get to see her struggle with or at least come to terms with why she's there. Uh-huh. Granted she's novice, anyone would be because you wake up, you you're going to bed in your, you know, in your house and the next minute you're with a bunch of strangers.

31:34Oti: It would pretty much affect anyone. So for her to rise up to the challenge and to offer, you know, even have us an inkling that, hey, this numbers make sense somehow, you know, and even she was quick to sort of once she realized it was just not prime numbers on the coordinates, she was really quick to get on board and just start figuring out a solution.

31:34KT: But I guess that's also,

31:57KT: you know, the the functioning of a well oiled machine. Everyone has their part to play. And she played that very effectively.

31:57Oti: Yeah. For most part, it was just her though. Like, to the point where they're like, hey, she needs rest. She let's take an hour sleep or nap.

31:57KT: She yeah. She was like the the main chess piece of transformers. Like, she she was the she was the epicenter,

32:21KT: and she was also whatever that weapon was in Pacific Rim. And in in some space time continuum and you haven't watched Pacific Rim, I'm not gonna spoil it. She was Captain Planet while the others were their kids with toy rings.

32:21Oti: Well, I'm not fussed either way.

32:21KT: You say you don't need my approval, but you keep trying to seek it if you're nasty. You're an anxious lover. Yeah. Le Levin was absolutely integral to the operation. And I would also argue that Worth was as well.

32:54Oti: They could have done it without Worth, to be honest.

32:54KT: No.

32:58KT: Because with Levin's skill, she was able to calculate based off of Worth's dimensions.

33:05Oti: That's the only thing she did.

33:05KT: What do you mean only?

33:08KT: That was the groundbreaking piece of information that they needed.

33:10Oti: But it was wrong. It wasn't an it wasn't going to an edge in a cube for them to walk out. That information, she got it based off the coordinate that was supposedly outside the cube. She she deduced that herself without

33:10KT: No.

33:29KT: They needed to know how long and wide the cube was.

33:33Oti: It played a part, but it wasn't a major factor.

33:37KT: Mate, what part of Quentin's parts played a factor? I don't understand you, sir. I don't understand you.

33:46Oti: You're just praising Worth more than he needed to be.

33:49KT: You know why you like Quentin so much? Because I'm pretty sure Jay Ellis' character in Escape Room was based off of him. Friends and lovers, next to our Office Space episode, many, many moons ago, we do have an Escape Room. And if you are following us in real time, Escape Room 2 is going to be coming out and we're very excited. Aren't we, Oti?

34:13Oti: I wonder how Lawrence will be incorporated in a new one.

34:13KT: We know we love a good Lawrence hive. Perfect segue. Let's move on.

34:24KT: I think if you spent more than two seconds, Oti, you will start to understand the perspective that Worth is coming from, that he contributed to something deplorable. And he also is in some way guilty and responsible for the deaths of these people that is happening across. I think if you took it from that point of view, you would have some sort of semblance of resonance with Worth's character because I there was always that

34:53KT: sort of nagging feeling that he knows more than what he's letting on. Right? And I feel like, like I said with the pacing, I feel like it was perfect. And even though we were wondering what the fuck is his problem, like they waited at a tangible time for us to understand who he was and why he was having such a inner turmoil, a visible inner turmoil. So I think his was one of the more fulfilling arcs and it was definitely one to

35:22KT: empathize with. And especially since you've watched it so many times, like, I guess if you don't care about him, you don't care about him after that.

35:22Oti: No. I just thought he was a

35:22KT: But the fact that you still have so many things to say about Quentin.

35:35Oti: None good, to be honest. It's just I I just didn't want you to dismiss him because he's a dick. Anyway, with Worth, I feel like he he should have disclosed this information way sooner, and it would have helped them quicker. And a lot of people would have died because of that.

35:35KT: Yeah. But dude, like what if you were designing

35:55KT: something that was built to be a death trap? How do you even come to grips with something like that? How do you how do you even reconcile although in your brain, you know you're not guilty, there's still a part of you that can't untether that guilt.

36:07Oti: You say, hey, there's like five other people in this room who wants to survive. Maybe I can redeem myself by helping them and not just see them die one one by one. Dude, there's a there's an idea.

36:07KT: No. I don't agree.

36:26KT: If if you wanna have man feelings, punching, choking other men, then you go, sir. But I was looking at at the layers of emotion with Worth's character. But you continue on, sir. Go off, sis. Wow.

36:43Oti: I I know that he was going through turmoil. I know he was struggling with that. But that does not recuse you from giving a fuck about other people.

36:43KT: He just wasn't ready to accept that in his journey, you motherfucker.

36:58KT: Sheesh.

37:00Oti: Why are you trying to change my opinion then?

37:00KT: I'm not. You do you, Oti. You do you.

37:00Oti: Yeah. Well, I think with me is and even when we talked about Alive, I sort of gravitate towards people who want to take action and people who want to help. Because a lot of the time we find ourselves in situations where we could do something, but we sit on our laurels for whatever reason.

37:00KT: But you're simplifying it because no, in Alive

37:27KT: you're simplifying it because in Alive, it took time for them to accept that this is what was going to happen. So Worth needed that time to accept what had just happened.

37:27Oti: Fine. Fair enough. Fair enough. Nice try trying to bring my moral quandary. Fair enough, man.

37:27KT: Let's talk about Kazan. I didn't I guess you could say it was obvious and you could see it coming in regards to Kazan's worth and how it would unfold in the film. I wouldn't necessarily

38:00KT: say that I didn't see it coming. I wasn't really looking for it. And also, unfortunately, sometimes you have films that like bring in characters of different abilities just to like punch down. So I wasn't sure if that's what we were getting into in the film. And I'm glad that's not what we were getting into in the film, But I thought they were just trying to add more layers into it. When it got to the point of, you know, Kazan being able to compute such sophisticated numbers and there was the yelling, there was the shouting,

38:34KT: you had Levin, you had with Quentin, and it was it was building that stress, that unrelenting tension. And the music was building and it was so fucking stressful. And you hear Kazan come out of the blue and start solving it. That was a brilliant part of the film.

38:55Oti: I absolutely enjoyed it. It was definitely a heartwarming moment in the movie. I felt that, you know what, come in Kazan, you know, show your stuff. And it was very nice to see him do his stuff without, you know, when he'd already been dismissed as a weight, you know, like a chain and ball. If you wanted to compare him to Sakura. Oh, nice.

39:17KT: Where we abuse to. Hashtag where we abuse to, friends and lovers. I loved it. I I love the way that they introduced it. There was also a part of me that felt like, especially with Holloway's character, showing that everyone brings value even if it's, you know, in a very ableist sort of society, we value people differently. I thought maybe it was bringing that sort of messaging in, especially with Quentin deciding who's going to make it out with him. Right? And him just picking people off like they're not people. I thought that's more

39:56KT: why Kazan was being introduced into this film, but to have him, maybe he's the most valuable as well. But again, we're all parts of the transformers, right? We're all contributing to the whole mechanism of it all. And it's like, even at that point, Quentin somehow felt like he he could take credit for Kazan and was like, my man. Fuck off. Like, I just don't understand that that level of of of of lack of self awareness. Does he not realize he's bringing the ship down, Dido and otherwise?

40:36Oti: He probably felt he's the one that inspired Yeah.

40:41KT: After talking shit and being really mean and cruel to Kazan, he had the gall. He had the nerve to be like, my man. Like, no.

40:51Oti: But Levin pulled him up on that shit. Yeah. Levin was like, mate, you offer shit in this situation.

40:51KT: Oh, thank you.

40:59KT: Thank you. Because I was like, why isn't anyone calling him out? And I guess I would say at that point, they're just trying to focus on the task at hand, but you're completely right. And I'm glad that Levin was the one to, you know, put him to task.

40:59Oti: Oh, for sure. But with that, I just saw like, oh, man, you've you've crossed a line with him because, you know, anytime that you cross Quentin,

41:24Oti: he's gonna react in a way that is just fucking ridiculous. It's not proportionate. No.

41:30KT: And it's not justified in any way. Yeah. Yeah. All of it's or otherwise. Okay. That was quite a nice little wrap up of all of the characters, Oti. Let's get to the end of the film. It was unfortunate to me, but it also wasn't surprising that Quentin turned up again. I wanna talk about the last few moments and I guess the ending of the characters. I think it's sad that Levin didn't get out. I

41:58KT: actually was expecting her to get out to be honest.

41:58Oti: Yeah. Me too. But then my problem with that scene was that those doors to open between cubes are fucking loud. Yeah. How did bloody Quentin sneak up on them?

42:13Oti: How do you sneak up on anyone in that sort of situation? Like, it didn't make sense to me at all. And I've watched that scene a lot and it just doesn't make sense that we have Levin and and Worth sitting there talking to each other, you know, trying to convince Worth They would have to heard it. Yeah. It would have had him. But he he was holding one of the handles, which became a very suspiciously effective spear.

42:36KT: But he was he was holding the handle, maybe he broke it and it doesn't make as much noise on

42:42Oti: Those doors make a lot of noise. Yeah. Know. They even wondered why the door didn't trigger the sound activation

42:48KT: True. Things

42:49Oti: so that, mate, if you can hear it and someone can sneak Kwaji can sneak up and you'll spear you in the back. Nah, come on now. Come on.

42:59KT: Yeah. I I have nothing to say or add in regards to that. I feel sad that Worth didn't survive. I know you don't care for Worth, but it wasn't his fault that he designed the death machine.

42:59Oti: Well, he was going to die anyway, didn't he? Wasn't he? He didn't want to leave. He how would he survive otherwise in a cube with no food?

42:59KT: Well, I I think he was trying to be brave. I think he was trying to quantify if

43:26KT: me dying means that someone like Levin can escape, then I'll do that. That's why he was saying that boundless human stupidity. I don't believe that he believed it. I reckon he actually wanted to survive, but because he felt so much guilt, he was willing to sacrifice himself, which he did.

43:42Oti: Yeah.

43:44KT: Oti trying to deny the depth challenge.

43:48Oti: He did. I think that with Worth towards the end, I think he feels a lot of guilt and he doesn't see a future outside there that makes sense for him. And he was content dying in the cube. He was content just, you know, giving up. Yeah. And that's fine. But I don't think that it was for him to sacrifice himself because of a bigger sort of picture. I think it was just, hey, life is fucking shit and people are stupid. I'm done.

43:48KT: Wow. I wonder if housewives would have that around their kitchens.

44:23KT: Next to their live, laugh, love. Look out for the For Your Reference Etsy, friends and lovers. No. Because even when he was dying, he was crawling towards leaving. And, you know, it it makes me think of Luther Vandross' song, you know, I'd rather die in the cube with you than go and have freedom outside. Maybe so. I got the bootleg version, friend of most. I'm glad that Quentin didn't make it, but I guess in real world scenarios, Quentin's continued to survive. So I guess that's it there. I'm glad survived.

45:01KT: Oh. And I think that also, not gonna spoil El Hoyo, but that also speaks to the humanity of the group as well. Mhmm. Because sacrifices were made and that all accumulated into the result of Kazan being able to escape. And it was beautiful and I loved it. And I wanna talk about whether you believe he was actually able to escape or whether that was part of another shell of the cube or another cube. Do you think obviously we wanted him to escape, but just living in the film,

45:33KT: do you believe that he escaped?

45:33Oti: No.

45:33KT: Aw.

45:38Oti: Thank you, Joe Swanson. I feel like a lot of these movies, we know how well, let's just start here. Wizikube, these guys are twisted. And I think part of it, them having this bridge and having them hope give, you know, oh, there's a way we can escape if we work together as a team. But once you walked out through the lie, I feel like we'll just be walking into another cube or something else.

46:03KT: Well, I I guess I don't know whether the the sequel or maybe it's like a whole completely different story, but I do have something that resembles a heart. It is small, it barely functions, but I wanna believe that Kazan got out.

46:17Oti: Oh, I guess you're more optimistic than I am.

46:25KT: Alright. I guess the only other thing I wanna say in regards to this film is we recently covered Mortal Kombat. And I talked about 1997 Jax and how I created the Jack Steele test. When you have a character that can't help but be in every scene and every time they're in the scene, they need to fucking say something. And that was Quentin.

46:49Oti: Yeah. Quentin passed the Jack Steele test. Yeah. It's weird that they have to be black as well in this test.

46:56KT: Quentin Quentin also passed the Oti test. Yep. The Oti Dell test. Oh, far out. Alright. Thanks for joining us. And according to Oti, not escaping the cube this week. We're going to finish off in a segment we call For Your Reference, Oti.

47:19Oti: I'm gonna reference the Circle because I think it's quite similar and we had fun with it. Oh, absolutely.

47:26KT: Absolutely. And it has been a couple of years since we've watched it. So I look forward to tuning in and we'll definitely be covering it. Won't we, Oti?

47:26Oti: For sure.

47:26KT: I will reference Alice in Borderland. Oh. Yeah. You didn't see that coming with my El Hoyo platforms on Twitter and Instagram, we're at foryourrefpod. Write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com. We're also on Oti Quentin podcast if you'd like to leave a rating and review. And we'll see you guys next week. See you. Bye.