Candyman – Into the Bee-Verse

Full transcript of Candyman – Into the Bee-Verse.

0:00KT: It's another week in the For Your Reference household, and we are starting off with a PSA. Friends and lovers, for those that indulge or don't indulge in horror and didn't realize that there was social commentary and there were themes for the voices that have been unheard, the joke's on fucking you. Keep up, you queerphobic superhuman superman motherfuckers. That's the sort of tasting we're getting in today. Let's get on with the show. Howdy, friends and honey lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. I'm your host, KT.

0:00Oti: And Oti.

1:00KT: Welcome to the Bee-Verse where symbolism and commentary collide and sting the unaware. Indulge in another tasty Sweetie Man with us this week with Candyman. Now literally, we have a Sweetie Man this time. A literal Sweetie Man, but we do love our Filmbuster Sweetie Man. Go and check out our District 9 hardcore prawn episode for the title alone, friends and lovers. This was essentially child's play, if you'll pardon the pun. Compared to Halloween, the timeline for what we're covering this week is definitely a lot more clear, a lot more succinct.

1:44KT: Today, we will be covering the original 1992 Candyman and the 2021 Candyman. Again, middle finger to the motherfuckers that got annoyed about Suicide Squad movie titles because we've got the same title here. We are aware that there are sequels that spawn off the original, but we will be covering the original and the 2021 version this week. In way of stats and general information, the original 1992 Candyman superior Sorry, I got into first Did bot flick? As well as my liquids. But they are as sweet as honey. Oti can assure you if you're nasty.

2:28KT: We have director Bernard Rose for those that are aware. The original Candyman was written by a white man. Clive Barker, he's also the creator and the mind behind Hellraiser as well. In Way of Stars, we have Virginia Madsen, Xander Berkley, and the ever iconic ever eternal, all of the splooshies to Tony Todd. Mhmm. What do you think it made in box office? Do you think it was a cult classic at the time? Do you think it was a catastrophic hit, Oti? How are you feeling?

3:04Oti: Maybe not catastrophic, but I think it made some few bucks. Yeah. Just past 50 mil, I'd say. Maybe not. Maybe inflation if you get your abacus out.

3:04KT: Uh-huh. The budget, $6,000,000

3:15KT: and a worldwide gross of $25,700,000

3:21Oti: Wow, okay. Not too bad.

3:21KT: Well, the too bad is coming over because we're talking about the 2021 Candyman now.

3:28KT: General stats and information, love, splooshies and accolades to Nia DaCosta smashing box office records as well. Nia DaCosta is also credited as part of the screenplay as well as Win Rosenfeld, Jordan Peele stars Yahya Abdul-Mateen the second, Teyonah Parris, and Nathan Stewart-Jarrett. Also shout outs to Colman Domingo because we love a Domingos in the For Your Reference household. Mhmm. I'm pretty sure if Key and Peele were still going, they would talk about the Domingos with the Liam Neeson's of it all.

3:58KT: Don Cheadle's Algy Rhythm Internet is telling me the budget for the 2021 Candyman was 25,000,000 with a worldwide gross of $77,300,000 That's cool. Yeah, we've been pussyfooting. We need to just get to how we feel about the films. We'll speak about the films individually. But before we do that, I just wanna get some first impressions you know, the original Candyman. What I love to hear with Oti is whether it was part of his childhood, whether it was something that he's known and loved for years, or did you watch it recently?

4:36KT: So just give us the first impressions, I guess, the original 1992 Candyman.

4:41Oti: So I watched this as a kid. Mhmm. And I really didn't understand the other time. I knew there was some hook guy, and that's pretty much what I took from it. I didn't fall in love with the movie.

4:49KT: I feel like there's disrespect. You call you it's like you referred to like the arrow guy with Hawkeye, the hook guy.

5:01Oti: No. Seriously, imagine watching this as a kid and thinking, oh, wow. This is amazing stuff. I think there was a lot of nuances and discussions that went over my head pretty much. And watching it, I didn't watch it up until we did it together a few years. I think, what what was it? Last year? Yeah. Yeah. So I was aware it existed. I never really fell in love with it. I don't think anyone in my circles was

5:24Oti: a huge fan. Mhmm. But having to you know, watching it again with you when I was you know, my faculties were all intact. Uh-huh. I was like, mate, this is some deep shit. Super solid. For 1992, man, bloody hell. I enjoyed it. Great year. Yeah. And I think the kind of the cadence that they did with it as well was, you know, nothing too much on your nose. I think the storytelling was nice. I enjoyed the characters quite well. I think it was done brilliantly. So you know what? I'm

5:57Oti: I'm sitting here having watched the purported sequel Mhmm. And I'm feeling quite a bit conflicted.

6:04KT: Are you edging?

6:04Oti: No.

6:06Oti: Which is a sort of this is this worst sort of way to be conflicted without the edginess of it all.

6:06KT: With the Oti minus the bite.

6:06Oti: Yeah. It's a it's a limp conflict.

6:06KT: Limp conflict. We need to start a rock band with that. A honey lip conflict.

6:21KT: We can walk around with honey pussy hats.

6:25Oti: Yep.

6:27KT: Okay. First impressions, the 1992 version. Like you said, we watched it a couple of years ago. I really enjoyed it. I wasn't screaming at the rooftops about how much I loved it, but I really enjoyed it. But I think this is the very interesting thing and we're kind of dabbling into first impressions of both of these films where I loved and appreciated this 1992 film more

6:49KT: in the lead up and I guess after, because we've watched the twenty twenty one twice now. Yep. So we watched the 2021 when it first came out fresh without rewatching 1992. And we felt the way we felt and we'll get to where we're going. But just recently we watched the original nineteen ninety two and then we watched the twenty twenty one.

7:10KT: And yeah, if when we get to Christmas, we'll talk about our ratings, but whatever my new miracle rating was when I first watched it a couple of years ago, it has definitely moved itself up in the ranks.

7:23Oti: True. You know, I think the the sad bit for me is even with my tax put on it, I don't think it even comes close to what the '92 version did and was and how it outlaid everything.

7:23KT: How about your Jordan Peele's tax?

7:23Oti: Not even.

7:23KT: You lost that with Us. Right?

7:23Oti: Yeah. I think his tax was cut in half then.

7:44KT: We'll move on. But we did say we would try and rewatch Us because it's been a few years now Yeah. To give it a go. But I think it's natural that we're it's like symbiotic, right? So we're talking about 1992, but we're also reflecting on '21 as well. So I'm just going to amalgamate all of my first impressions. I absolutely agree with a 100% of what you're saying. In 1992, it felt very effortless. I know there's a sense of reclaiming the icon that is Candyman and, you know, having an all black cast in production

8:19KT: in the 2021 film. And we talk about representation a lot, Oscars So White and all of that. But here becomes the problem. Right? Because we talked about the Halloween franchise. I'm not gonna spoil it. I don't watch Shame like Oti. It's been out for decades, but people like me, I only watch it for the first time in the 2020s. But Halloween wasn't that great. So I guess it kinda makes sense how it was mystical stutter, stutter, stuttering. Like, it kept trying to redo the franchise. On the other hand, the 1992 Candyman

8:55KT: is almost kind of perfect to me. Like, I get and I understand that it's from the lens of Helen Lyle, like the protagonist is a white woman. I understand that, but the nuances were more existent in 1992 than they were in 2021. And I really like the way that they you know, we can talk about it as specific sort of themes, but even the way that they outlaid a topic like gentrification, it was done so naturally.

9:21Oti: I think nuance left the window with the 2021 version.

9:26KT: Yeah. We're definitely gonna go into more detail, but I I guess just the sort of sampling, that's generally how I'm feeling. Going to 2021, do you have any first impressions, I guess, before we go into detail that you want the listener to know now that might keep them listening if they're not already turned off?

9:48Oti: I get the need. Not even the need. I get the direction they wanted to go with this. Mhmm. I understand that. I applaud it. But somewhere between the idea and the execution, we sort of lost the way of what Candyman was, is, who how they're supposed to carry out this movie. It felt a bit too fluffy. The buildup was so slow. The characters were I didn't really love any of the characters. There's just fluff pieces. There were too there were too many. It's like the most recent Halloween

10:19Oti: timeline. There's too many characters to focus on. It was just fluff, fluff, fluff. Like, if if I'm caring about Yahya's character Anthony McCoy. Or I'm caring about Brianna and her backstory

10:30Oti: or Brianna's brother and a lover, like me, you're stretching me too thin right now for not and there's not much in there anyway. True. You know, what the '92 version did well is at least we were focused on one thing and everything around Helen, you know? It was very succinct. There was a story and we were focusing on what the story was. Yeah. And then you could start building and start seeing, oh, shit, man. You know? And even at the end, where they're explaining how Candyman isn't just one person, it's a fucking beehive. It was stellar. They did paint it off for us. They didn't yell it out like they did in this version. Yeah. Candyman is not one man. Candyman is a fucking beehive. Hundreds of years. We got that by the fact that Helen is the one who fucking appeared at the end, killing everyone. Yeah. We didn't have to fucking spell it out. It was spoon fed to us. You know, I don't know why. We don't need spoon feeding.

11:26Oti: Most of the times, there's the aspect where I've gone to a movie and said, mate, you've left too much and said. And I said, you know, like in Halloween, all my qualms was, there's too the it's too there's too much unknown. Yeah. But with this, this spoon feed that shoving that spoon deep in our mouths, my rectum was filling it. I don't know.

11:26KT: I'm enjoying that. Watching the actions and hearing your voice out like that, I'm enjoying it. I think I think I need to visit Oti's Domingos in a second.

11:57KT: No. I absolutely agree with you. I guess just on our both of our first impressions for 2021, there were too many characters to focus on. And if we're talking very generally about the 2021 film, we're talking about horror icons. Like, Candyman is really up there, and I need to need to flick my Tony Todd bean at another time because he I think he's the sexiest, I will say. But in regards oh, I'm getting flushed between Oti's rectum and Tony Todd's Candyman. I'm getting very distracted.

12:30KT: But because so so when you when you think about the first film, yes, the protagonist is a white woman. It there was a omnipresence about Candyman. Every motivation that Helen it was kind of funny. Oh, spoiler spoiler spoiler, white woman, white woman, white woman. But it was kind of funny every time Helen Lyle will like pass out and then she'll have like a knife in her head. Yeah. Like, it was kind of like, were following her and and and I guess the the eventual tethership

12:58KT: between her and Candyman. Right? And it was it was the intrigue. We were following them and them only. Unfortunately, I don't know. I've I've never explicitly on this podcast complained about multidimensional characters, but there were too many characters that had too many dimension, and we had to care about all of them.

13:18Oti: May I drill that back in and say there are too many characters who are all fucking one dimensional?

13:27KT: Wow. I think they had too many backstories dimension.

13:30Oti: Mei, I'm I'm coming for you, Anthony. Okay. I love Yahya, but Jesus fucking Christ. It was a nana. What did he have to be angry about? Sorry, friends and lovers. I guess I'm at a stage where nana is funny to me. Is that a Trey Songz of a bloody reference? If our demographic understand it.

13:51Oti: He seemed to be angry about everything when he seemed like I feel like everything fell on his fucking lap. Yeah. He had Brianna who paved way for him. He was living in a fucking Can we condo rent Can we talk about it? But the girl was pissed off at everything. But it's like, you didn't even pay rent, dude? Why are you angry? Why are you shouting at the people in the fucking

14:13Oti: museum? What did they do to you? Yeah. Mate, you should be fucking kissing their fucking legs for letting you is it kissing their feet? Not legs. Legs in

14:13KT: You the can kiss me anywhere, Oti.

14:13Oti: Like, I was like, where did this come from? Because you were taking a few drinks, now you're going to butt mouth them because what?

14:29KT: Because if they if they loved his art, he would be eating that shit up. And then we don't get to have this spoiled Anthony behavior continue because they're killed in the next scene. And I'm like, cool. Fair enough.

14:37Oti: They're dickheads, but they did nothing other they didn't do anything wrong to this guy to be him like such a dick.

14:37KT: If we're talk we're talking about, like, the structure

14:52KT: and the mechanism of gentrification is bad, guy. Cool. But for on an individual level, these white people didn't do anything to you, Anthony McCoy.

15:03Oti: And I'm sitting here thinking, this fucking privileged black dude Yeah. Feeling the pain of everything. I'm like, mate, look around. Look fucking around. Yeah.

15:13KT: Bloody hell, man. Like You're living in the buildings where the projects used to be. You're part of the problem. You're the artist.

15:20Oti: The whole thing is coming for you, mate. Yeah. No. Absolutely. I absolutely Anyway and and that's that's a discussion we we shouldn't even be focusing on because I think how in the '92 version they did it, they explained it so succinctly. And I was there thinking Without fuck sakes. Without having to

15:39Oti: without having those little factoids on like a music video trying to explain to you everything that's happening. Yeah. And rewatching

15:46Oti: it a few years ago, I was thinking, fucking hell. I there's no way I would have gotten that back then Yep. When I was fucking six, seven, eight, or whatever age I was watching this in. Yeah. So it it works on layers. Yeah. And I think in in as much as I love the attempt, I love the the what they wanted to do.

15:46KT: I love how you said attempt. You're such a shady bitch.

15:46Oti: No. No. No. Like, I I really do appreciate what

16:11Oti: they they wanted to reel back. Like, this is our Candyman. This is our story. This is how we wanna tell our story. But wow. Did did this shit get messed up into ideologies and and and too much nonsense in between.

16:25KT: But I guess, let let let's go to the question that I posed earlier. Do you think that they even needed to improve or even reclaim Candyman? Reclaim's a bit heavy. Do you think that the 1992 film needed to be improved? Because that's kind of what was happening in 2021.

16:43Oti: No. Because in essence, it's a sequel, but

16:43KT: Because for me, I

16:48KT: guess to lay it out better, I don't think it needed an extra film as a sequel in the 2020. So for me, there was already a barrier to entry for enjoyment. That's more what I'm framing. I'm not trying to sixth a minute you.

16:48Oti: I get that. Maybe you're Domingos, I but not

17:08Oti: get that, and I understand that. I think those there's an effort in trying to make it, you know, feeling like Candyman could have been more or should be more. Look, I get it. I just didn't like, me, there's a a lot of things that we can be aggrieved of Yeah. As black people or whatever. And watching it laid out in a way that just seemed a bit too fucking in your face Yeah. It felt, do we need to see it pan out this way? At the end of the day, Candyman, an anti '92 version,

17:44Oti: we we knew what he stood for in the community, and this way, I just feel like, mate, we just got an artist. I don't even know why the fuck you had to be an artist, but we got an artist.

17:48KT: Oh, can I just say, I really, like, vomited over that shot where they had the camera staring up at Anthony McCoy and he had his fucking tongue out, like, painting at the canvas? Gross.

18:07KT: I was like, I don't care for this mania. Yeah. But but it it did have some good production value, this movie. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like like I feel I I think if we're gonna capture off like first impressions, I I really feel like if we're talking about the offerings, 1992 does it better through way of messaging, through way of cohesive story, through way of satisfying character arcs. What 2021 did did well, just so I have it on the record that I do have positives for the 2021 film, it was very stylistic.

18:40KT: It wasn't until the second time around that I noticed the logos were like switched. And the way they had the sort of city landscape, it was like, you know, shot from underground. I didn't really notice that until like the second time around. So I guess that's shame on me, but I'm nasty. So I like that shame. So stylistically, did very well, but I also feel like story got sacrificed because of that. There was no real story. Things were just It was like a Tarantino, know, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, Pulp Fiction

19:18KT: sort of film where things were just happening to Anthony McCoy. There was really because when we started the film, did we know where it was going to end? Do we did we did we even anticipate the offshoots of his character development? Things were just happening to him. And also at the same time, you know, we talk a lot about loving a firm foundation.

19:37KT: And this 2021 film doesn't have legs without the 1992 film. You can't just watch this on its own, which maybe it it you shouldn't because it's a sequel, but come and fight me motherfuckers. This film doesn't stand on its own because so much of the the the grounding is laid in 1992. And you're just relying on the fact that you have loved Candyman for decades that anything else in this film is a bonus, but none of it really lays the groundwork itself.

20:08Oti: Yeah. And I get that. I think what the bits that I enjoyed was seeing Vanessa Williams back. Yes. Was good. And to know that Anthony was the kid, I was like, oh, wow. Okay. You know what? They got some things. They had legs, mate. But they wanna use them.

20:27KT: But like, question. I guess maybe maybe like newspapers had integrity back then. But like, surely he would have had some sort of semblance of him as a baby, but I guess not. Maybe they didn't publish his name in the newspaper and family secrets stay family secrets until the grave, I guess. Yeah.

20:45Oti: I get that. I think I understood why Anne-Marie had to hide all that shit. You don't need that as a kid growing up. It's just too much baggage. I don't get why Anthony didn't want to understand that, but I feel like I just need to say something fucking positive with this.

21:02KT: But can I just say, know, Queen & Slim, I talk a lot about on the podcast about one of one of the most interactive sort of audiences when we went to go and watch Queen & Slim in cinemas? When we finished the 2021 film, instead of any sort of cheering or a nod, I heard a very labored sigh from Oti.

21:02Oti: Was definitely a lot.

21:02KT: Let's move into themes. I wanna talk about the themes and we can naturally crossover between two of the films. One of them straddled successfully, the other not so much.

21:44KT: I wanna talk about the sense of the urban legend. And I guess I'll preface this. This is exactly what I mean. In the 1992 version, there was so much of the talk of community. There was so much to talk of loss. There was so much to talk of trauma. Right? So much bad shit was happening in the projects that whereby it be religion, whereby it be culture. In this sense, it was the use of an urban legend, Candyman. Whether because we do we do straddle fantasy and reality in both of these films. Whether

22:19KT: this one entity committed all of the crimes, it kind of became a sponge for the pain of a neighborhood to be able to explain unspeakable tragedies that happen in the projects. Yep. Right? So even though it might not be true, you've got Candyman. You've Candyman for it. And you can, I guess, allocate the pain that you have to Candyman? Like Anne-Marie in order for her to like go to a job and look after Anthony, like she everyone needed

22:52KT: that sort of grounding and Candyman was that. Right? It can be religion. It can be culture. In this sense, we're talking about urban legend, which, like, if I can reference Archer, Noah, like, if we talk about anthropology, eventually urban legends do form part of the culture. Right? So Candyman really became the device of that. And that was so successfully done in the 1992 version. And there was such a sense of community. So even though, unfortunately, but even very recently, we can have Green Book. But very like, even in 1992,

23:28KT: even though we had a white protagonist, there was a focus on community. There was a focus on the neighborhood. There was a focus on the projects. And I wanna talk about, you know, the the demonstration and the portrayal of urban legends because I feel like it was done very well in 1992. 2021, like, we do have more of a presence of a black cast. And I would say, apparently not you, but I would say that there are backstories and dimension from a lot of the characters.

23:59KT: But it always felt very just the characters. It didn't feel like it spoke to beyond the characters, which is essentially the whole point of Candyman. Candyman is supposed to be an urban legend that again becomes that vessel, that vehicle to distress and decompress all of that pain. And in this can and in the 2021 Candyman, they kept talking about it, like, theoretically, but there wasn't really much portrayal because how many we saw Jake in the 1992 version. We saw a lot more characters in the 1992 version, and we understood how contextually it fit in the concept of urban legends. What do you think?

24:36Oti: A 100% agree. I think the way we get to see how these characters are laid out Mhmm. In as much as you wanna call them multidimensional, I think to me, especially when we focus on the protagonist who I'd say is Anthony, is the fact that a lot of the stuff just happens.

24:57Oti: Yeah. You know? We don't get a feel of him as as a character per se. Yep. It's just him being reactive all the time. Yeah. Absolutely. It's just him bouncing off things that happen every single time. Yep. And his fascination with with switching his stylistic artistry and what he wants to paint or put to portray Mhmm. Just feels a bit why?

25:25Oti: Like, I didn't buy it. I didn't it did I I didn't feel any sort of resonance or connection with him, and it angered me because I felt it was a fast time. I thought it was just me watching it wrongly the first time. Having to watch it again

25:38Oti: Yeah. And feeling the same way, maybe even more so than I did, comes to me in a way that if we're portraying Candyman as this urban legend who we can sort of unload our burdens and everything, but that happens to us in a community as the Candyman did it Yeah. Then Candyman did that. Candyman did that.

26:00Oti: Then where does this all tie into these people? Yeah. Where does it tie in? Because they seem quite removed from that sort of society anyway. Yeah. And, oh, man. It just it just felt I just felt a bit lost. I felt lost and I was angry about it for a while.

26:00KT: You know what was really interesting? Because we talk about it spoon feeding us up the rectum. We need a merch for that or maybe not friends and lovers. We

26:25KT: talk a lot about spoon feeding. We talk a lot about not leaving a lot to the imagination, but there was also a lot of assumed knowledge as well, or at least assumed emotional resonance. Like we had to come in already loving Candyman and not questioning that. But then they also

26:39Oti: It's it's like the exact sort of situation you had with Passion of the Christ where we came with all the fucking baggage and you're there thinking, hey, mate, where's the backstory, mate? Where's this coming from?

26:53KT: Yeah. It's like it's like you have to already love it in order to not necessarily buy into the premise because there wasn't necessarily one, hey, yo. But you're right. Things were just happening to Anthony's character and we just had to continue going along with it. Although William Burke, our Colman Domingo,

27:16KT: he kinda was the mustache twirling villain in this, but that also doesn't make sense as well. Unless we unless we say there are like Satan's helpers, and that's what William Burke was. And one thing that I didn't understand with this version is, is the only way to make Candyman Yeah. Is if you're murdered by a cop or or what?

27:32Oti: Like, he pretty much orchestrated the whole well, he was already chosen. He started his skin started fucking rotting, which again is another thing.

27:44KT: Had his whole raw ass hand out in the publics.

27:49Oti: Without anyone saying, ew, mate. What's up? He was just walking out with a rotting hand. Nothing. Not even going to the doctors. All the time he went to the he had got all up his fucking neck, and they even check that. Yeah. Contrary to Rotten Tomatoes, he was 90% rotten by the time he went to the hospital. Wow. It was insane. He didn't get dread for fucking hiding this shit. Nope. Nope.

27:49KT: I kinda wanna talk about gentrification

28:18KT: again. We keep saying the word gentrification, but that's what they've kept fucking doing in 2021. For those that have already watched the film, I I guess, you know, you already know what we're talking about. But with Helen Lyle's character, it was explained so perfectly that all of these buildings were built the same until there wasn't necessarily a buffer to the project. So it it became consumed to be part of that emerging sort of class. Right? Mhmm. But it was the exact same building. They just put plaster walls up. Yep.

28:50KT: Come on now. Come on now. It was explained so beautifully. And dare I say, the element of whiteness is very effective in 1992 because that's where the oppression starts. Like, in 2021, we I I guess, unless we're talking about William Burke, there was no real opposition. There was no real necessary sort of face to where all of that pain is coming from. Not necessarily to say that Helen Lyle is a problem, but her with her Terrence Howard equivalent husband were out at that dinner and we had,

29:26KT: you know, that fellow. He's actually the one. So William Burke in 2021 is the one that tells us the story of Candyman, how it started in 1890. But we have this white man explaining it to us in the 1992 version, but that's exactly how it feels. Academics in a stuffy room wanking each other off, dick to floor, Silicon Valley reference. Right? And I think it was done so perfectly because the callousness, the indifference that he had when he was explaining the story of the original Candyman played really well to the audience because it becomes,

30:01KT: it kind of became part of academic books that just go on a shelf. Right? He's like, oh, I wrote this article ten years ago talking about Candyman. What do you as a fairer sex woman know about anything? And I think that element played really well in the first film.

30:18Oti: You know, and there's nothing wrong in in talking about these things and laying it out in a in a black and white or in a sort of nuanced way. Fine. But when we come to see a movie that's layered in in in in its messaging with some intellectual thought behind it, you know, a movie that you get out of the cinema and you start thinking to yourself, hey. You know what? I'm gonna think about these issues that are affecting society

30:48Oti: like this. But when I come out of this, I'm just thinking, you already told me. Alright.

30:53Oti: You know? When when when you I think there's there's an onus when you're writing a script that's not BET's Karen, and you say, is the nuance level the same as BET's Karen? If it is, mate, you need to fucking rewrite that script. Yeah. I think that that's the base level. Look at BET's Karen, and you feel like, oh, mate, I've laid it out too thick. Let me write some intelligent shit up here. But but to be fair, BET has some great layered offerings currently, just not Karen. Yep.

31:22Oti: I think

31:22KT: Well, we pretty much watch this BET's Karen as potatoes, Candyman. With a bigger budget. With a bigger budget. With a bigger wig budget.

31:22Oti: And me, like, I understand these issues.

31:33Oti: I understand all that, and we don't wanna castigate people. And we also don't wanna be those we don't wanna be on the same side of the white critics that don't understand why the 2021 film became woke when the 1992 wasn't. We don't wanna be on that side either. But,

31:49Oti: mate, I'm I'm I'm just I really wanted to love this. I've always spoken about my support or or my love of everything that black people do, and I try to go out of my way and watch and read and donate and do whatever I can to father. And and this is a Kenya Barris sort of effect. At what point do you say that

32:10Oti: Like, are you for black people if you if you have some sort of, like, constructive

32:16Oti: sort of criticism? Or do you love it by default? Oh, it's my onus on this just to say fucking ace, mate. It was a good movie. And and nothing else. Because at the end of the day, it's fucking watchable. I'm not gonna say it's a bad movie. It's not horrible, but the extent of it. Yeah. It's not. You're gonna sit there and you're gonna think, oh, it has some good moments. You know? There's some gory stuff. It's not really a horror movie because it does it's not really scary

32:38Oti: aside for some few shock horror gore scenes. But you know what? If they had a better focus on Candyman, it would have been a horror movie. Yeah. But it's not. It's it's it's a step removed. Yeah. So I'm sitting here thinking, cool. Aside of the gore stuff, what is this?

32:52KT: And and There was there was so much of a focus, and I guess that's why I say into the Bee-Verse. There was so much of a focus that any black man, unfortunately, through history, you know, isn't necessarily Candyman, but can become the mantle piece of Candyman. By saying any black man can be Candyman, he lost his face. Right? Even within this film, it wasn't really and then you get to a point where you realize that Anthony McCoy is become gonna become the mantle piece for Candyman, but neither does a horror icon be, I suppose.

33:27Oti: What I didn't understand is why him at the start, because you get to see him, he's stung by the bee. And then when you land that he's the kid from the '92 version, I'm like, oh, okay. They'll say he's probably chosen, which they said he did. And at that point, I'm like, with everything that's going on, I'm still left wanting.

33:27KT: Yeah. Well, because it's like, we can talk about 1992,

33:53KT: but I I guess it's either way, like, we're gonna be super positive about 1992 or we're going to have some real constructive things to say about 2021. I wanna talk about 2021. I wanna talk about Brianna for a second. So we get a backstory about her and it's some heavy shit. Like her dad commits suicide in front of her. Sorry, friends and lovers, trigger warning, but we did say spoilers if you've watched the film already. And then it becomes her

34:22KT: searching for her soul in tortured artists that she tries to save. I feel like there are some really good elements in the 2021 film, but it's all in the same film that's about an already iconic horror guy, like sweetie man, if you're nasty, that we didn't like, it got in the way because if it's not about Candyman and it's not about Anthony McCoy, it's about five other different characters. And it really all just got in the way. There's I don't know. Like, I like to have a succinct sort of storyline and, know,

34:59KT: M. Night Shyamalan on the beach, Old, give me a twist, I suppose, if you like. But it's kind of good to know that we're going to have some sort of development based on the stories or the plots that are being introduced to us. And I don't know, like she had a she had so many scenes that were dedicated to her. So what is it? Is it Candyman? Is it to be Candyman? Is it the wife of the to be Candyman? Like, where are we?

35:25Oti: Yeah. And I think one of the things that I loved about this is, you know, we've watched horror movies where there's barely been any black people in. Mhmm. You know, and would always shout on the screen, no black person would ever be so damned to do that shit. But LL Cool J, he got spared by Michael Myers, so that counts or something. Yeah. But anyway, when when

35:45KT: Don't don't ignore my LL Cool J erotica.

35:49Oti: It's not what I was to say. Well, in this movie, at least they did some of that stuff. Like, Brianna going down to the to the was it the old building and then opening the door to the basement, and it'll be all dark, she's like Nope. Nope. Exactly. Don't fucking mate. Well, the the life is fucking hard enough for us to go down off some fucking dark basement. But that's the last thing I enjoyed about the movie. At least, it was self aware.

35:49KT: It's okay, Oti.

36:17KT: This this episode will go down in history as KT bringing all the qualms. And and Oti being forced to say negative things about a film he loves. I guess while we're talking about love and accolades, I wanna shout out two people from the cast that we haven't talked about at all. Nathan Stewart-Jarrett, which I believe we first became aware of him in the Four Weddings and a Funeral mini series with Melisandre. Not Melisandre, what's her name in Game of Thrones?

36:17Oti: Missandei, mean?

36:17KT: Yes. I believe if it's correct, that's what I mean.

36:55KT: It was nice to see him. Like you said, his partner Grady was trying to do Candyman at the museum exhibition. And he's like, black people don't play that shit. So shout outs to him there. But also shout outs to Carl Clemons-Hopkins, who is in Hacks, which is a brilliant series. And I don't know if we've even mentioned how much we love that show. So he's a bit problematic in that show, but not not to the point of faux canceling. But yeah, he's kind of a problem in that show. But we also love him

37:23KT: in that role. So it was nice to see him again.

37:23Oti: For sure.

37:23KT: Let's talk about William Burke's character in 2021.

37:30Oti: Oh man. So he wants to unleash Candyman upon the people.

37:36KT: What do you think about that? Like I mentioned a bit earlier, like Satan's servant, do you think that's what it was? Because part of what I really enjoyed about 1992 was the agency. You chose to be the victim of Candyman. But now it's like you're being forced to be Candyman or I don't know. Because I guess that also is the bigger question of, do you become Candyman or are you forced to be Candyman?

38:02KT: But then it also felt like you were forced to be Candyman by white people. You know what I mean?

38:08Oti: It wasn't like a sort of decision by committee sort of thing. But this took it a bit farther. I think it it made it brought this manufacturing aspect to it. Yeah. Where we're looking like, okay, we already know he's gonna be Candyman, but what he's doing essentially is he should come and fucking kill you.

38:27KT: But he's had so many interactions with Candyman. Like the first, I guess, we can talk about the imagery of bees because that was kind of annoying in this film. But like the first sort of instance was he kind of, you know, alerted the cops to Sherman. Right? Even though you shouldn't really be climbing out of a wall and offering candy to kids. I thought Herbert the pervert from Family Guy would exemplify that enough, but apparently not. Don't come out of a wall and offer candy to kids. But that's kinda where Sherman was,

38:56KT: in quotes, surrounded by the swarm. So, you know, the original 1890 Candyman, he was slathered in honey and death by bees. So they're bringing that messaging along, further along to the police being the swarm and gunning Sherman down. Right? So he has the first sort of introduction to Sherman, who was that iteration of Candyman. And then with his sisters or with his sister rather, with sister and friends where he wasn't allowed to join in and unfortunately he had to hear his sister and her friends dying.

39:32KT: And then he stares into the room and he sees to be Candyman.

39:37KT: You had a little chuckle then. Why?

39:37Oti: I thought it looked like a scene from Key and Peele. It looked like a scene. I was like I don't know. There's something very comedic about that scene. And as much as it was meant to derive fear, I think it did the opposite for me. Mhmm. Because I chuckled off there a bit.

39:37KT: Yeah, you did.

39:37Oti: No. Could just imagine fucking Keegan pulling that shit off, you know?

39:37KT: Yeah, sure.

39:37Oti: And I was like, yeah, yeah. It really looked like that.

39:37KT: But I agree with you. Like, I don't see

40:07KT: like, I see the Be My Victim Candyman. I don't see the Satan's servant Candyman. And I guess for those that are religious, maybe me saying Satan has been over five times. So I guess we'll see if I make it to the end of this recording.

40:22Oti: Yeah. It's weird though. Like I I appreciated the fact that you had to choose to be his victim. And Yeah. It brought a sense of, okay, you know, you're fully aware that and the the fact that Helen and how she was like, can't even fucking set her up. Like, you've lost everything in your life. There's no other choice other than to accept.

40:43KT: I feel like Ginuwine's Pony is gonna be replaced by Tony Todd's Be My Victim in my dreams.

40:54Oti: Yeah. And this just felt, it felt quite mechanic.

40:58KT: It felt very deliberate. Like I think with the messaging, it became less nuanced and it was like, I'm doing it for the purposes of black people, so then it's fine.

41:05Oti: And at what point if did he just had to be killed by a cop for him to officially transition into Candyman? Yeah. Or you chopping his hand and him probably bleeding to fucking death to do that? Yeah. So I was like, torn, because five more minutes before the cops came because he'd already collapsed, I'm like, if he died, would he become Candyman? Or are we waiting for that cop's bullet?

41:29KT: What's happening? He's like, oh, shit. He has to wait another ten years.

41:35Oti: Damn it. I'll probably cut the hand off and probably sear it with fire and put some bandage on it.

41:35KT: Yeah, absolutely.

41:47KT: And I think this is like Part of the problem that I had with this film is we had more representation in front of the screen and behind the screen, but then the messaging became so linear in the sense that Anthony McCoy, case in point, and I'm not saying he's supposed to be the perfect example of progression in the 2020s, but he only saw gentrification from white people. And that journalist or the critic rather was talking about how artists also did that as well. But also at the same time, it's not just white people that gentrify a neighborhood.

42:23KT: If you move to a different state and you've got a Whole Foods, but then you've also got local markets that sell stuff less than like 80% cheaper than that like Whole Foods in the same fucking neighborhood, in the same fucking block, then you kind of contribute to gentrification as well. Don't worry, friends and lovers. I'm actually still trying to reconcile the fact that I am not white, I've just discovered, and I may contribute to the facets of gentrification. And that's what bothered me about this film because we're in a place in storytelling and cinema

43:00KT: where stories can be told and also in this case reclaimed by the people that it's being told about. But then it kind of waters down the actual messaging because it's I guess you can say it's us against them, but there is in some cases, maybe not me in a par in our Parasite episode, but there is the concept of upward mobility. Right? Mhmm. So if you're living better than you lived in your childhood and you're not white, potentially you are contributing to that gentrification.

43:28KT: And far be it for me to have to be the one to explain that because it wasn't present or at least it wasn't nuanced enough in this 2021 film.

43:37Oti: Agreed. And I think I loved like I'm just going to repeat myself here. I love the idea. I love the concept. I love the trailer. Oh, this made for a gorgeous trailer. I just think that sometimes you need to have just a balance. Don't make it feel political in any sort of way because I think it came across to that degree at some point. Mhmm. And at that point, I'm like, what's

44:06Oti: what are we trying to do as a society here? Yeah. And if if that's the if that's the only way that we see that it should be done and, you know, you wanna double down and die by that flag, fair enough. Yeah. It just feels a bit pointing at the evil man and shouting the evil man and nothing else Yeah. Without solutions,

44:27Oti: without anything. And at that point, what's the fucking use of it anyway? Yeah. If Cunningham sat down there and said, alright, guys. This is how we're gonna de gentrify this fucking hood. Then you're like, oh, hey. Yay. Bring some of the solutions to the table. Yeah. You know? He wasn't the Nipsey Hussle or Issa Rae. No. Like like, fucking tell us something. Yeah. Even fucking Charlamagne has a showdown and he fucking spits out solutions to shit. The God's Honest Truth. It's very good. Tell us solutions.

45:01KT: But do you do you think so so I think we we can both agree that the 1992 film did very well aside from the fact the person that was writing the pen and the person that was very prominent in the film was white. It did very well. I think we can both agree that it did very well and it definitely brought the nuance to it. But, you know, even coming through this episode, do you think that the 2021 and the reclaiming of a black horror icon was potentially some sort of catharsis?

45:33KT: Because I don't know. I don't I don't know if black people openly just sit in their lounge room talking about gentrification the way they did in this film. But maybe it's a sense of catharsis.

45:44Oti: Like, don't worry about us. We'll write our own stories. Fuck off. Maybe not fuck off. Yes. Fuck off. Yeah. I think it's the fuck off aspect of it, isn't it? And they have a bloody fucking right to feel that they need to reclaim shit. Reclaim it. Be bold and chartered territory and shit. I just wanted it to be more. I wanted Candyman to be more. I wanted the storyline to be more. I wanted people to love it. I wanted it to be the Black Panther of the horror franchise. I wanted to see a reunion and a joyousness

46:17Oti: of it. I wanted to see people fucking celebrating in the theaters. I wanted to see my fucking timeline blowing up. I wanted to see people being like, mate, we've got it. We've got it. We didn't have people crying over shit. We painted a picture of what we wanted. Can we also point out for our new friends and lovers, we were in Kenya at peak Black Panther release.

46:39Oti: It was a beautiful time. I've never seen anything like that in my life. Yeah. And I thought I thought Candyman would do that. I thought it would be a reunion of sorts. It will be a a celebration, reclaiming Candyman and being fucking awesome Yeah. And thrashing the box office because of its fucking awesomeness.

46:57Oti: Mhmm. And knowing full well that when they do another Candyman in twenty twenty two, twenty three, it doesn't fucking matter. It will bring people to the fucking seat. Yeah. Will this? My god. I'm I'm just I wanted it to be more, and I feel angry at myself that I'm saying this because at the end of the day, I'm gonna rate it fucking highly because I thought I'm fucking dumb.

47:18Oti: Then what is the point of this? I'm gonna probably rewatch it four times so so the networks the networks will have it think, oh, mate, this is a burger. Let's find the fucking next thing. I'm gonna recommend it to other people. I'm gonna recommend it to my friends. I'm gonna recommend it to my family, and I'm gonna tell them, let's watch this. I'm gonna make it into a fucking event. And you know why? Because I love black people. I love seeing them on screen. Love seeing them on

47:46KT: Okay. Now we're getting to this point, and only our real friends and lovers have made it this far. So I'm going to ask the hardball question, Oti. How does black cinema get further if you're just going to blindly love something? Because you've given a lot of points, constructive points, not just out of pure hate points, And now you're just taking it all back by the fact that, okay, it's black, I'm going to support it. So like,

48:11KT: where do you straddle the line, my love? Are you nineteen ninety two straddling or are you twenty twenty one straddling is the point?

48:11Oti: Until all's fair in love and war, I will continue straddling that fucking line.

48:11KT: Tamar Braxton Love and War. And if you don't understand that reference, you're the reason why the 2021 film ended up this way.

48:30Oti: I'm just going to say, like, I get it. I understand where they're coming from. Fine. And I just wanted it to be more and better. And just yeah. I'm just gonna leave it at that because at the end of the day, it is what it is.

48:49KT: But you don't but you like speaking on behalf of you, you do love what is happening. There are major moves that are happening in cinema through way of black cinema, but you also don't wanna be that fucking ASAP Rocky right next to Rihanna revolutionizing fashion, and he's just there throwing off his blanket like he fucking changed the world. You don't wanna be that either, do you?

49:10Oti: I don't wanna be that. And again, if you don't understand that reference, you should because it was the Met Gala and everyone knows the Met Gala. But I just wanna see more of this stuff, be it Candyman or whatnot. You know, we have Nollywood fucking making moves. Yeah. Maybe we'll give more of that a go and probably record more of those podcasts. Banana fall on you. Yeah. Because I have me love. Kenya's Industry Baby. We're gonna watch more of that shit. We're gonna bring more Rafiki and more

49:41Oti: Nairobi Half Life to this shit.

49:41KT: We do need to bring Nairobi Half Life.

49:41Oti: Yes. Like, I just want it to be more to evolve, to be better. And, no, let's let's just be fucking brave. Let's break from the mold. And Pico, because the the the next time the person is given a franchise, what what are we gonna do?

49:41KT: No. So you say this, but you also say you're gonna support it regardless.

50:05Oti: Yeah. Because it's my fucking duty.

50:05KT: Okay. It's you finding treasure and then burying it.

50:05Oti: And I'll dig it up again once it's safe to do so.

50:15KT: Okay. I would really love to see a National Treasure Oti edition.

50:19Oti: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think at the end of the day, I I was disappointed that it it it wasn't more. Yeah. I really did want it to be something special that people could celebrate in a grandiose level that that just just transcended or at least do it better than the first one. I didn't think it was possible to do it better, but at least sit side by side.

50:19KT: It's possible to do anything.

50:19Oti: Better than the first one, you know? I I I fucking die of my grave. Matrix two was better than Matrix one.

50:19KT: What?

50:56Oti: So there you go, you know? Do shit better. Wow.

51:02KT: I really thought we got to the depths of criticism, but I guess we got this far.

51:08Oti: Are you sure? Yeah. I think I'm just delirious at this point.

51:13KT: Are you looking more forward to John Wick four or Matrix four?

51:16Oti: Oh, Matrix four. I feel like I've watched John Wick quite recently.

51:16KT: Nah. John Wick, man.

51:16Oti: Nah. Matrix.

51:24KT: Actually, while we're on it, I don't think I'm gonna put in the my recommendations for For Your Reference. But this is exactly why I love the Jonathan Wickerson universe. Because this 2021 film made us try to, like, expand what we know is Candyman without making us care.

51:42KT: And for me, even if you're a sequel, especially if you're a sequel after how many fucking almost thirty years, you need to do the groundwork. You can't do The Passion of the Christ. Yeah. We love Jesus. He's a great guy. And then we're supposed to already jump on board. So Jonathan Wickesen is great. So I don't agree with you is my point. And hopefully, that's what people remember. Not all of the

52:05KT: conflicting feelings that Oti had. I think Oti wants us just to feel like he loves this film and there's nothing bad to say. Yeah. Like He'll hold you to account, but he'll still give you tins tins tins.

52:18Oti: And there's nothing wrong with that, my friends. Not lovers.

52:23KT: I think I need to sit on an Oti right and snuff it off because I need to cool down friends and lovers. Even though that is a hot affair.

52:34Oti: Yeah.

52:35KT: Let's finish off in a segment we call For Your Reference, Oti.

52:39Oti: If you wanna see Yahya in his fucking full glory, I recommend Watchmen.

52:45KT: Oh. I And it has Regina fucking King. Can I just say when people were like, oh, lucky Regina King? I was like, fuck off, lucky Yahya. Yeah. Who fuck is Yahya? Regina King, mate. She's not the face I'm blocking when the sex scenes are happening. I will reference a very, very recent reference, but also a great example of straddling nuance, complex topics, Roy Wood Junior's Imperfect Messenger comedian stand up special. I will not talk about any recent comedian stand up specials unless you wanna hear about it on Patreon.

53:28KT: Roy Wood Junior, we fucking love. We love Roy Wood Junior. That was, yeah, that was recent. And he's really the only example I've ever seen about a black American talking about black British people playing black Americans in a way that doesn't feel painful.

53:46Oti: Because that's another level. Like me. Yeah. Me. Will we talk about it? Not now. Me. Yeah. That's a probably a Patreon thing. Fuck sakes. Anyway.

53:57KT: If you want some pain that hurts so good on Twitter and Instagram, we're at for your F Pod. Write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com. We're also on Sweetie Man's OG edition podcast if you like to leave a rating and review. And we'll see you guys next week. See you. Bye.