300 – Snyder you nor I can deny the pleasure

Full transcript of 300 – Snyder you nor I can deny the pleasure.

0:00KT: Welcome, friends and lovers, to another week in the For Your Reference household. We're starting off with a very, very exciting announcement, Oti.

0:00Oti: Oh, yeah?

0:00KT: Yes. We have launched a Patreon. Yes. We are now that podcast. Everything is going to be exactly the same. You'll be satiated just as much with this podcast, but we've got some extra content if you wanna support us even just a bit more. With all of these streaming services, it might help to have a few Denari or two. Mhmm. Alright, Oti. Are you ready to walk on over to

0:37KT: your phrase or mine?

0:39Oti: What is it?

0:41KT: You need to strap in, my love, because this is 300, and we've mentioned it quite a few times on this podcast. And you've also been with me for a few years because this is going to be one you need to be ready for. Alright. They've mentioned it in the movie, and it is also not in English. So this is your clue to strap up. Also, Oti wanted to do his own research as well. So hopefully, that will bolster up in a correct answer. Are you ready?

0:41Oti: Yeah.

0:41KT: Brilliant. There is a classic laconic phrase.

1:16KT: Mhmm. Oh. Now I am even going to give you options.

1:24Oti: Oh, okay.

1:25KT: Because I'm a courteous queen just like Gorgo.

1:28Oti: Okay.

1:29KT: So Molon labe, is it with it or on it? Is it we will fight in the shade? Or is it come and take them?

1:43Oti: Come and take them.

1:43KT: Oh,

1:45KT: fuck off. Well, I'm going to take credit for that because I have broken you in just fine. So let's get on to the show. Salve, friends and lovers. Welcome back to For Your Reference. You've got your host, KT.

1:45Oti: And Oti.

1:45KT: And Oti, what is your profession?

2:30Oti: Oh. Oh. Oh.

2:36KT: Fucking hell. I am so proud of you, Oti. I'm on it today. I'm on it. All titties are out. All dicks are out. We are ready to go. If you've read the title, if you've been waiting for this episode, you are about to climax just as well. Today, we are covering the film, the accolades of all 300. Oh. Funnily enough, I didn't even know there was a following film.

3:07KT: 300 Rise of the Empire. So we also watched that as well. I think most of our conversations will be about 300, though. To be fair. Yeah. Nothing much happens in the what what do they call it? A prequel, midquel, sequel? Yeah. And that's when you turn into, like, a Cloud Atlas situation.

3:24Oti: Oh, yeah. We've banged on Cloud Atlas before. Let's not do it today. Well, that's what Billy Bob was doing in Halle Berry. She won an Oscar, mate.

3:33KT: She also won a Razzie in the same year. And that's what happens when you bring up Halle Berry for no reason. Progress, mate. I will smite thee with my erected sword. Can we get into this? 300. Okay. I just wanna say from the outset, because we are a learned people, we do attract learned friends and also learned listeners. For all of you that hang on, Oti, let people put their glasses up, give them some time to put their glasses up and say, this isn't historically accurate.

4:04Oti: Are you talking about Tom?

4:08KT: Hi, Tom. Tom was one of our guests from History of Aotearoa. Please make sure you check out his podcast. But, yes, he is he is at the brunt of all of our this is not historically accurate. Or you can bend over and spread your cheeks because this is actually based on Frank Miller's graphic novel. Mhmm. So come and fight us. Come and fight Frank. Come and fight Zack Snyder because this is based on a comic which is based on Herodotus,

4:38KT: who is the father of history. So even then, it wasn't written at the time of the battle of Thermopylae. So I think that's just advice for the world. Bend over and spread your cheeks for For Your Reference. Oh, advice will last you for ages, man. Because we are coming in all tits and all erections blazing. If only you guys knew there's no video podcast for a reason. The budget, Oti. Mhmm. So we also we already mentioned that it's Zack Snyder at the helm directing.

5:08KT: What would you surmise was the budget? And this came out in 2006.

5:12Oti: Cool. I don't think they spent that much just because I think it was all shot in one location Uh-huh. Just behind a green screen. So

5:21Oti: 20 mil.

5:21KT: Wow. Let's give Oti 20 mil and see what he can create.

5:27KT: Really? You thought

5:27Oti: Have you seen my Nigerian productions, mate?

5:32KT: You don't even wanna claim them as Kenyan. Just

5:35Oti: Need to be very specific here.

5:38KT: Shout out to the Nollywood scene if if you guys want us to cover any Naija movies. The budget was actually 65,000,000.

5:38Oti: Oh, cool.

5:38KT: So your gross underestimating really just ruined the budget because I think they achieved quite a lot with 65 mil. They did. They really did. In the first sort of cut for Zack Snyder to get Warner Brothers on board, he actually took the comic, took out all of the dialogue, and created, like, an animation

6:05KT: to sell it to Warner Brothers. And they're like, no. This isn't enough. So they created, like, a really quick sort of sequence for, like, one spot and decimating all of these Persians. Right? So that was that's quite an interesting sort of fact as well because they've got that sort of I guess we'll talk about the animation and the cinematography as well. But 65,000,000 to to be able to achieve that,

6:27KT: they weren't necessarily Warner Brothers wasn't necessarily expecting it to gross as much as it did.

6:27Oti: Oh, how much did it gross?

6:27KT: So the budget was 65,000,000.

6:35Oti: Mhmm.

6:36KT: They usually say for a film to make back its money, it needs to make two or three times as much as a budget. Mhmm. 65,000,000 budget. Worldwide gross. $456,000,000. That's some cashmulla right there. That is some serious coinage. So it oh, wow. All of the accolades, and I think it got and I don't think we've ever uttered the word Rotten Tomatoes on For Your Reference, but I think it got around 60 Mhmm. On Rotten Tomatoes, and Rise of the Empire is, like, 40. So Damn right. I can see that. Yep. Deservedly so.

7:16KT: But it's oh, this was you know, you can call it a cult phenomenon. You can call it a cult classic. You can call it garbage. You can call it whatever you like because you know what? We can have a lovely discourse without fighting each other. Well, you know, Oti and I, that's kind of our default final form.

7:16Oti: Not today. Not today, mate.

7:16KT: Oh, not today.

7:16Oti: Not today. Geez, I'm fully with you.

7:16KT: Well, everyone, keep track of what he just said because he will definitely go back on what he says. So that's 300,

7:43KT: and we're definitely going to spend most of our time in there. Let me just quickly capture off 300, Rise of the Empire. So this was actually directed by Noam Murro Mhmm. Who's an Israeli director. At first, I thought it was like Zack Snyder was trying to, like, distance himself from, like, the film after starting to watch this film, But it wasn't necessarily so. It just clashed with his Man of Steel. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Which is its own thing. Yep. True. It's its own thing.

8:15KT: So he still produced that, and he still got credits on this film as well, but it was directed by Noam. The budget of this so 300 was 65,000,000. The budget for this one was 110,000,000. But that just goes to show you, you can throw more money at something. It doesn't necessarily make it better.

8:15Oti: Yeah. But this had more, I think, though, fighting

8:15KT: The scale the scale was much grander. Yeah. And Ephialtes actually looked better. Yeah. He did. Like, you know, on a sad desperate night after a few, you might actually consider him.

8:49Oti: Yeah. Plus he had the battle in the water so that adds a level of complexity and all.

8:49KT: Well apparently,

8:56KT: it was actually done on dry land and they digitally added the water afterwards. So

9:01Oti: speaking in terms of having to do all that as well cost wise at least.

9:01KT: Oh, I I'm feeling this air of superiority.

9:09KT: Are you are you on the Persian side or are you on the Greek side? Where are we today?

9:09Oti: Oh,

9:14Oti: not so sure.

9:16KT: He's gonna wait to see who wins. And the worldwide grosser, after a $110,000,000 budget, it grossed $337,500,000. That's not that's alright. So it didn't necessarily do as well, but it, you know, it it kind of did enough probably, than it needed to. So let's quickly go through the cast. So in 300, we have Gerard Butler, and it's sad to think that he went down the road of rom coms with Katherine Heigl and also Jennifer Aniston, but let's just remember him in the glory. That is 300.

9:49KT: We also have Lena Headey Mhmm. As queen Gorgo. We have David Wenham. I don't know if I've seen him in anything else. Have you?

9:49Oti: No. I don't think I've seen him in anything.

9:49KT: I just kept thinking that maybe he was Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, but it wasn't him. So, you know, apologies to you, David. We have our man, McNulty-ing in all the holes, Dominic West.

9:49Oti: Yeah. He plays this sort of characters quite well.

9:49KT: He does. It is like

10:17KT: I I don't know about you, but personally, even though he was skeevy and he was gross and maybe even a not even maybe, a little rapey, I kind of didn't scorn him as much as I probably should have. Because he just plays these devious characters so deliciously. And definitely check out our Wire episode if you are into that and you love The Wire.

10:38KT: And also, I just wanna give a shout out to Michael Fassbender because this was his first feature film.

10:38Oti: Yeah. Who'd have thought that? I I didn't even realize it was him.

10:38KT: Who'd have thunk it? Yeah. Who'd have thunk it? I don't know for you. I watched 300 before I watched Spartacus as well. And I watched 300 at a time. Obviously, once you've watched something and then later on in your viewership, you'll come back and watch it and realize there's actually so many big names there or well beloved sort of thespians

11:05KT: Yeah. If you will. So that was quite nice. Don't know much about Michael Fassbender's whole filmography, but for 300 to be his first feature film, that is accolade alone.

11:05Oti: Yeah. I remember a movie

11:18Oti: he did with Nicole Beharie, the lady from Sleepy Hollow. Beharie. Yep. Yeah. Is it like a rom com or something? I think that was the first movie I saw him

11:18KT: and Oti said he did his research and apparently this is where he spent his time.

11:34KT: I thought we were going to dispute Spartan facts but there you go.

11:34Oti: My research is complete.

11:34KT: You you never know what you're going to get at For Your Reference, my loves. So let's go through the cast of 300 rise of an empire. We have Sullivan Stapleton as Themistocles. Mhmm. As soon as he opened his mouth, I'm like, this guy's an Australian. You

11:54KT: could just tell that he was an Australian. And it's like, shout out to, you know, all of the filmmakers out there, not all the time, but it seems like when they need, like, a man's man, a fully masculine man, that more often than not, you'll find an Australian there. Like, in Spartacus, a lot of the cast was Australian and or from New Zealand. And come and fight me, Zealand people. We're kind of the same, really. That whole sibling rivalry.

12:22KT: And also at some point in time, no matter how you feel about Mel Gibson, he was also in Braveheart as well. And you also have Russell Crowe as a gladiator. Like, you know, Aussie guys, that's where they're at.

12:22Oti: Just not in the streets, mate.

12:22KT: Well, unless you wanna start that podcast, Oti. I don't think we're gonna be diving into that. Speaking of places we wanna dive into, who doesn't love an Eva Green?

12:47KT: Woo hoo. And I feel like she was the driving force for this film because I didn't even know that Rise of an Empire existed. And then you your selling point was that Eva Green was in it, and I still kind of don't know

12:59KT: much of her filmography. She's

12:59Oti: All I have to say is Dreamers. And then I think a lot of people out there get it.

12:59KT: Sploosh Mountain?

12:59Oti: Beyond Sploosh Mountain.

13:11Oti: Sploosh Summit.

13:11KT: Oh, yeah. Well, I thought she was quite effective in her role as well. We have Lena Headey coming back. We also have David Wenham coming back, and we also have Rodrigo Santoro, who plays Xerxes, coming back. We also have Callan Mulvey, my best friend. He's also Australian, and he's kind of in everything as well. He's in Spartacus. He's also in three not 300.

13:35KT: Power, which we just did an episode on, guys. So there's quite an expansive cast that we have. And, if you play it For Your Reference drinking game, I always say expansive cast. So feel free to get drunk with us. Mhmm. But that's essentially the cast. Like I said, we will probably be focusing more on 300 because the Spartans alone are enough. We'll we'll talk about general sort of impressions about the film

14:03KT: as a whole and also Rise of an Empire as well. But, you know, we've done this quite a few times in some of our episodes, so I wanted to do that for 300 as well. And it's called foundational qualms. Mhmm. Mhmm. We've done it a bit informally, like, in our Lion King episode and also It as well. We did it a bit more formally in our Joker

14:25KT: episode as well. Essentially, if you've listened to our podcast before, we have what's called our frame of reference. So we could be watching the same film together, but our experiences, what we've gone through in our life can really pepper our viewing experience. Not only that, there's also hype. There's also vibrato surrounding

14:44KT: a film as well. So these are the things that we like to address so it doesn't get in the way of the discussion of the film. We've addressed it. We acknowledged it. We fucked it. Sometimes it fucks us and we move on. Mhmm. Okay? So these are our foundational qualms I'm just going to go through and we kind of already talked about the fact that it's not historically accurate. Again, hi, Tom. If you're listening to this or anyone else in New Zealand, please spread the word to Tom. Definitely.

15:12KT: Come and fight me again. We fight multiple times throughout the week, so this will be no surprise. I just wanna, you know, I just wanna pepper some more in regards to the fact that it's not historically accurate. From the for I guess the end all and the be all of this sort of viewpoint is that it's based on a comic book. So that's pretty much end of the story. The only other thing that I wanna mention in regards to it not being historically accurate is if you notice the film with 300,

15:40KT: the account is being orally told from Dilios' character. Yep. So, obviously, you're going to have a lot of Spartan vibrato in regards of the recounting of the story. You know, there weren't any rhinos or elephants

15:58KT: at this particular time. And for some reason, Oti wanted to fight me, that it was a possibility. I'm telling you it's a fact that they weren't there, but, you know, we can fight against other things, but you also said you weren't gonna fight with me in this episode.

15:58Oti: Yep. Letting it go.

15:58KT: And I also wanna say that would be a stupid thing to fight over because there's many things we can fight over. It is sad that Xerxes got his elephants before Cersei. That's

16:24KT: a Game of Thrones reference, and we do have a Game of Thrones episode, guys. Actually, two. We have the main one, which covers seven seasons, and then we also have a bonus episode. So that's for the Game of Thrones fans, just to satiate you that much. But in regards to it not being historically accurate,

16:40KT: it is coming from the point of view of the Spartans. Right? And I think we talked about this in The Wire episode. It's like, you know, like, even within your family, like, there are stories that you tell to the world that aren't necessarily true, and then there's the truth that your family know inside. To bring it back to history, you know, talking about indigenous Australians, you know, there were early accounts of them witnessing for the first time, you know, the white people coming to the shores.

17:08KT: And because they didn't have any sort of frame of reference for guns and cannons, it was imagined as beasts. You know, these mythical beasts and powerful beasts coming onto the shores to Australia. So hello. Hi. Did you not think we were going to get deep today? Get ready for the penetration that is For Your Reference. So I just wanted to mention that because,

17:29KT: you know, in the famous words of Winston Churchill, history will be kind to me for I intend to write it. Mhmm. So there you go. Any desire you had to fight me has dissipated because I gave you some lovely sources. So let's move on to the next foundational qualm. You know, even reading the reviews, especially from Rotten Tomatoes, there was a lot of, you know, criticism about the one liners that 300 famously has.

17:56KT: The only thing that I would say in regards to that is in regards to the Spartan society, and we will get into that as well, they in in accordance to, you know, the brutality of fighting and being beaten for hours and days on end, they actually had classes of music and dancing and arithmetic. Arithmetic. So they were actually quite light on their feet, and there are a lot of historical accounts from my best friends, Herodotus, Homer, and also Plutarch

18:23KT: to a certain extent, where they actually talk about how Spartans were actually known for being very quick witted as well. And a lot of the iconic lines that you hear from the movie are actually taken from historical accounts as well. So just pepper. Yeah. Just just the peppering on your For Your Reference foundation. So I just wanted to put that out there because it it kind of seemed too perfect at times, the one liners. And the beauty of it, a lot of the sort of delicious

18:49KT: quotes that you have are actually from historical accounts as well. So that's right? Shout out. There are a few I just wanna quickly go through. There was some vibrato about homosexuality and it potentially being pejorative or being viewed in a negative light. Spartans were not notorious, but it it was a known fact that there were relations with each other, especially in the barracks as well. I could see that. Right? Yeah. There were also, you know, there was a I think it was in Rise of the Empire or maybe at the end of 300.

19:26KT: No. It was 300 because he had Dominic West's character where he was talking about adultery. Adultery kind of didn't exist in Sparta. Like, women were free to bed whoever they wanted to.

19:26Oti: Maybe for the queen specifically?

19:26KT: No.

19:26Oti: Oh.

19:26KT: Just Spartan women in general. They were their own

19:43KT: kind.

19:43Oti: We need to go back to that time, don't we?

19:43KT: We do.

19:48KT: More for me than for you, but there you go. Oh, wow. Wow. You know, there are ancient accounts of, like, talking about adultery and how it just doesn't exist in Spartan society. So I just wanted to mention that because I think that's more of, like, a Western sort of, you know, inkling affecting sort of an ancient story because they're actually quite progressive for back then. Even the way that women were viewed, but we'll come to that in a second. Something that I wanted to also address before the last one is the pronunciation

20:23KT: of the names. Mhmm. Moving forward, you will hear us refer to Leonidas as Leonidas. There are some historical accounts I remember watching in high school that called him Leonidas.

20:37Oti: Sounds like some spot apparel.

20:39KT: It's like some vomit forever. And also some historical historians in regards to the documentary surrounding 300, they also called him Leonidas. Leonidas. I don't know what this is. And Leonides. So there are so many ways to call it, but we are gonna call him Leonidas.

20:39Oti: God. Because if that's the case, I wanna call Theocles Theocles.

20:39KT: Themistocles. Yeah. But yeah. So, you know, all in regards to the pronunciation,

21:14KT: people just calm your titties, calm all your privates, and we're going to be fine. The last foundational qualm that I wanted to bring up, Oti, I actually wanna bring you in on this. Mhmm. Accents. Alright. I feel like it's a disservice because it actually no one bothered me. No one bothered me in this film, but I feel like we need to bring it up. Like, even in our Black Panther episode,

21:35KT: we gave lashings specifically to Forest Whitaker about accents, but I don't know. It just didn't accents didn't bother me here.

21:35Oti: I guess it comes to having that frame of reference as well because I know nothing about Greece

21:48Oti: and Persians and how they sounded then. And frankly, it didn't bother me because I thought, yeah, it's fine. They're all speaking English. Oh, well. Mhmm. But then when it's something like Forest Whitaker in Black Panther I have a bit of reference to that and I was like this is throwing me off a bit but then again people who are knowledgeable about this stuff it might affect them.

21:48KT: Yeah. So I just I just wanted to mention it because people might throw that in our face because we talk about accents a lot, but I actually didn't mind the mismatch because there was a lot of different sort of accents in this film. Alright.

22:19KT: Well, let's dive into 300 specifically. Let's start off with our first impressions. I think Oti should start first before I go. So in regards to 300, did you know much about it? Were you a fan of ancient history? And what did you think about the film when you first watched it? And how did you feel about watching recently?

22:41Oti: I know your background in this is a bit more vast than mine but I really didn't have any sort of reference growing up towards these things. I think the only thing about growing up was playing God of War and learning about or watching Hercules and I think that was all I got from that sort of time period. Our school really didn't teach us much about that. We're more focused in what happened from World War one going forward. Yeah. And focusing more on African history. So

23:10Oti: I went into this just really knowing the basics of it. Wasn't really keen as many people were angered by the fact that it's not historically accurate. I was just like, oh yeah, sounds cool. Looks good. I like how it was shot. I loved everything about this movie. It was light. I just enjoyed the sequence that It was light.

23:29KT: Visually or story wise?

23:29Oti: Visually.

23:29KT: Okay.

23:33KT: That was a lot of heavy shit in this.

23:33Oti: Well, yeah. It was it was a lot it was heavy but then again you could just sit back and switch off and just enjoy it for the action sequences alone. Mhmm. I think that's what most people did Yep. To be honest. So yeah it was good. Had fun with it and I think it deserved

23:55Oti: all the hype and the fact that three when I watched Spartacus later it it just reminded me of how 300 was. You know, it's just like a callback to how awesome it was and it's was mandated that the first season of Spartacus rely heavily

24:10Oti: on 300, which was quite clear.

24:10KT: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And you know what? Just with what you were mentioning before, I really feel like we should tackle not even in, like, an ancient some sort of, like, African history sort of film because I feel like that is a gap in the market, if you will.

24:31Oti: There is. Especially when it's so vast and a lot of shit has happened there. So, you know, you get all these tasty stories. But the only problem is I think it all just shed a lot of people in a bad light and, yeah, no one wants to live through that again.

24:31KT: Well, you know, like I said, many times, like, true crime is on the rise. We, know, we have a hard day at work and then we watch Mindhunter.

24:31Oti: No. It's like it's like making a slavery film and people are like, ugh, a slavery movie again. Oh my god. Can we just get over it?

24:59Oti: It's the same sort of it's the same sort of trail of thought that goes behind that because you just don't wanna face what happened back then, and it's ancient history according to people even though it could be traced back to some odd twenty years ago. So, you know, fair enough. Let's let's sleeping dogs lie, I guess.

25:20KT: Well yeah. And it but it is an interesting sort of idea. I definitely wanna do tap into that, though, because, you know, growing up in Australia, in regards to history, if we're talking about, like, modern history, we only really learned about, like, Australia, but not even indigenous Australia. But I don't wanna make that it about that today. And then we would learn about World War one, World War two, and some of, like, Asian history where it makes sense in the context of Australia. But we never learned anything about African history.

25:48Oti: And and the weird thing is we are drilled into the world history. Like, we learned a lot about farming in Canada than we ought Yeah. To Like, we learned some random shit about world about our world history, and we're like, nah. This is this is ridiculous, and and nothing is being taught about Africa out there. So

26:09KT: Yeah. Like, I feel like the only sort of African history would be like slavery.

26:15Oti: Yeah.

26:16KT: Interesting. And this was a verbal example of our frame of reference, and sometimes these are the tangents we go on. But if you guys are interested in, you know, us going down that path, I think it'll be actually quite interesting.

26:32Oti: It would be. Personally.

26:34KT: But let let's let's dive into my first impressions for 300. You know, you talked a lot about, you know, just, you know, who you are not being reflected in history. I am from a tiny little dot in the Pacific Ocean. Mhmm. Tonga. Look it up. We have a oily flag bearer in Olympic sort of event. And we also have the Fattest Monarch. We won the Guinness Book of Records for the Fattest Monarch. So shout out to us.

27:03KT: That that's our claim to fame. That's really all we have. But, essentially, the reason why I mentioned that is I don't expect to see myself represented whether it's in history or whether it's also in media. Only recently, we had Moana. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, if even if, like, Polynesians sort of get, like, represented, I don't think there's enough of us to create an uproar.

27:03Oti: What do you mean? Those are haka in Hobbs and Shaw.

27:03KT: And even that wasn't enough. Oh, yeah.

27:33KT: Even that wasn't enough to get me through. But, yeah, it's like I just it's interesting. It's very interesting because I don't expect to see myself portrayed in history or like the recounting of my history or the stories of my people. I just don't expect to see that on a world scale Yeah. At least. So I really I kind of saw it as, like, fantasy, like, as, like, fiction, reading about ancient history. And

27:59KT: I satiated on every tasty morsel. You know? All of the kids were out having boyfriends and flicking each other's beans, and I was sitting there pulling my glasses up and reading historical events about Sparta. Like, that was that was my life. And you're welcome, Oti. I was preserving that, per se, for you. Mhmm. But I really loved, like, 300, like, Sparta, the battle of Thermopylae in particular. I really loved reading about these stories. And if you've been on our Instagram or our Twitter, you will see that we actually have

28:36KT: a little statue of king Leonidas. And I actually made Oti buy that for me for my birthday.

28:44Oti: Yep. I was surprised as you or me.

28:44KT: Some some girls want pearls.

28:49KT: Some just want a pearl necklace. Am I right, ladies? I don't know anyone wants the other one, but If there are any ladies that relate to me, I kind of don't wanna know who they are because the other time the other time I mentioned it was I think it was in the Spartacus episode when I was saying you keep your panties on for a few days so you can keep the funk. I don't wanna meet other ladies like myself.

29:11KT: I think the world is enough just having one KT.

29:11Oti: Yep. We don't need some more.

29:11KT: But, anyway, I really loved the story, and I feel like Oti really got the experience of being in a ancient history class because I was pausing or I was interjecting sort of historical facts as we went along the way. So let's let's talk about the film, finally. Let's talk about The Spartans. You know, the the story I really enjoyed overall. Let's just talk about the both films in particular. So in regards to 300,

29:44KT: I felt it was very effective because a lot of the narratives that I enjoy are personal stories and, you know, the the politics or, you know, any sort of overarching military sort of tactics are in the foreground. Right? Yep. I really enjoyed that because then you get more investment in regards to the characters, and there's more emotional payoff as well. What I feel like in regards to Rise of an Empire is it the the there's the scale was much grander,

30:16KT: and we didn't get time to really dig deep into the characters. Mhmm. What made them tick? Yep. And why we're cheering for them. I think if they wanted to do it, they should have made it like a TV show because the the the scale was more grand. But I really felt like 300 was very effective in what it was. It was definitely something different of the films that were coming out then. You know, we mentioned Gladiator earlier. It was delicious, and it was great. And you see the grit, and you see the

30:49KT: not so much antihero, but you see a protagonist in Russell Crowe's character where he's not necessarily perfect. Right? But you didn't get to see the aesthetically pleasing. Not I love Russell Crowe's face. Don't come and fight me, Tugger. But I mean, just as a whole, like, looked like a comic book. There was a lot of effort that went into the aesthetics and the optics of 300.

31:13Oti: And and I think which made the movie what it is because it was completely different from what was out there at the time. Oh, yeah. The effect made it more immersive to people. Mhmm. You felt completely as if you're fully focused on what's happening in front of you. I think they made they made a lot of effort in trying to remove all the other distractions. Yeah. So every stroke on every thrust Mhmm. Is completely captured, and you're like, god. The brutality of it all Mhmm. Is is is breathtaking, and you're fully immersing this experience

31:44Oti: because we've watched a lot of war movies and stuff, you know, and it's done well. But what Zack Snyder did here is completely remove the noise and fully focus on what's happening in front of you. And it just translated really, really well.

31:44KT: And that was actually quite intentional.

32:01KT: So to have it look so mystical and to bring that fantasy sort of element, it's to remove the fact that, yes, this was a point in time in history, but creative licenses were spent. And, you know, unless you're that it it's literally up to the viewer. If you're watching this for a wholly historical account, then that's on you, dude. Right? Like, if you actually wanna hear the full history, then, again, see my best friends, Herodotus, Homer, and Plutarch. Right? Mhmm. But if you if you wanna enjoy immersive narrative bolstered in creative licenses,

32:40KT: then this is where you watch it. And I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with taking creative license. This film is a perfect example of where it is used correctly.

32:40Oti: Yeah. Agreed.

32:40KT: Even even most recently with Rocketman, you know, you have Elton John, and it is kind of a pseudo sort of biopic for him, but there are fantasy elements in there. Right? But it was a it was a gripping story about Elton John's life and how he saw it through his own frame of reference. Mhmm.

33:11KT: So I really feel like 300 was very effective. And kudos to them because it didn't feel gimmicky at least to me. And it managed to couple my attention their entire runtime, which is super hard to do. It's not easy. Yeah. But it's sad because in this day and age, like, two hours doesn't feel long. Because you're getting movies now that are, like, two and a half, 2:45. Three hours. Who's got the time and who's got the bladders for these sorts of films?

33:38KT: Right? Yep. But let's let's go into 300. So if you've watched Rise of the Empire, the good thing that the second film does is it rounds out the overall big picture. Right? So let's just take a walk down history's lane. We had and if you've watched Rise of an Empire, it'll actually make more sense to you. Mhmm. So in April,

34:00KT: we have what's called the battle of Marathon. This is the first instance that the Persian Empire were coming to invade Greece. Mhmm. Right? And it's very egotistical because if you look at a map and you look at the Persian Empire at the time, they had an overwhelming

34:16KT: proportion of the world at this time. Mhmm. And in in comparison to how small Greece was, you know, it it it was a no it was a no brainer. They were just going to invade. It was going to be an easy thing. But what they didn't account for was the heart Mhmm. And the goal And the strategy. And the military

34:36KT: prowess. And we will definitely get to that as well. Right? So that's just, you know, if you wanna go and do a little bit of research, just have a look at optics of how big the Persian Empire was. So you have king Darius at the helm. Spoiler alert. If you've watched the film or if you've read some historical accounts, they lose. Right? So, you know, the Athenians actually get them at bay, and the Spartans actually didn't weren't well, they were observing like a religious festival at the time, so that's why they didn't attend.

35:09KT: But this was a nice victory because it also at the time, a lot of the Greek nations relied heavily upon Sparta. So it was a nice instance of, oh, we can actually handle this ourselves. Mhmm. Right? So you have the battle of Marathon that happened in April. King Darius dies, and then things happen. Ten years later, we have the battle of Thermopylae, which which in the film, they're saying Thermopylae. You can Thermopylae your ass because that sounds gross. They had the battle of Thermopylae, which is what 300 is centered on. I have some qualms.

35:44KT: Why? Out of all of the Persian Empire, they had already fought Greek armies at this time. Mhmm. Not Sparta specifically, but their weapons were inferior. Right? And that was part of the reason why they didn't win at the battle of Marathon. Mhmm. Why then did not one person try and restrategize?

36:06KT: Because when they went to go and fight up against the Spartans, they weren't any better.

36:06Oti: Because three to one mate, they outnumber them. So they thought regardless of whatever they throw at us, we'll just keep on coming at them.

36:06KT: And it's it's hard to respect that. Right? That laziness. Yeah. Right? So yeah. So you have it and it's it's just a stupid little thing, but I thought that was a bit funny to bring up. So you have the battle of Thermopylae, which is where we are in 300. And it really focuses on

36:35KT: the Spartan elite, if you will, who were most commonly known as the or the Spartiates. This was the elite sort of class within Sparta. They didn't really show a lot of slaves or, you know, the social structure within Sparta, but they did have slaves as well. Yep. They were also known as the oligarchy because they had two kings ruling, which was quite unusual as well. And then you also had the ephors, which were the inbred motherfuckers

37:02Oti: Yep. Up in the mountains. Gotta have your inbreds.

37:05KT: Said by Oti but not reflected by KT. What are you doing in the basement? What the fuck? He laughed with deflection. Mhmm. And then you also we haven't even mentioned the Oracle as well.

37:05Oti: Yeah. Some teenagers drugged up to tell people what to do.

37:05KT: Well, yeah. They lit up these stones, got her high, and whatever she said was gospel,

37:26KT: if you're part of the religious fun.

37:26Oti: Yeah. Which is as much as accurate as the religious leaders now, but I'm not gonna get into that. Hey, oh.

37:35KT: Again, if you didn't think we're going to get deep, spread cheeks, my friends. Get ready for it. But, you know, they had a whole society and it is essentially centered around their protection and the love and the absolute adoration and loyalty to Sparta. Mhmm. And that actually starts quite young. As you see in the start of the film, all of the babies are inspected. If there's any sort of blemish, they kind of get discarded. Right? And then once they turn seven or eight, they move into the agoge.

38:06KT: Mhmm. Which is a school. So the interesting thing about Leonidas is he actually had two siblings that were older than him. Mhmm. The middle child kind of just went into exile because he knew that he wasn't really going to be anything. And the older one actually went mad. Like, he went cuckoo for cocoa puff. So Leonidas wasn't really in the line of deity or into kingdom ship. Right? But by default, he did become the king. His name actually derives from lion. So they they believe they're descended from Hercules and also Hercules as well, who's

38:42KT: known for battling lions as well. But they go through the agoge where, like we mentioned before, they spend hours being beaten up. Right? And it's really to bring that sort of resilience Yep. To life. They also have a sequence at the start of the film where Leonidas' character is facing a wolf. That didn't happen. That was admitted by Frank Miller. That was just so he could put it and then be nice in a novel. Mhmm. But what it does is it perfectly illustrates on another

39:13KT: level the the military strategy of the battle of Thermopylae, which is what 300 is based on. Because you see he's he's facing the wolf and the way that he conquers the wolf is funneling it into that little crevice. Yep. Yeah? And that's how he gains the advantage. So that shows that, you know, imagery and symbolism can be very effective So true. In the tapestry of a narrative, and it does it very well. Yes. It didn't happen,

39:40KT: but, you know, get your finger out of your ass and let's with time.

39:40Oti: Yeah. It's story time.

39:40KT: Yes. Thank you, influencer Oti.

39:40Oti: You're welcome.

39:40KT: That's your profession apparently. So

39:51Oti: let's let's talk about Leonidas and Gorgo as a unit. I love them. I think there was quite a strong partnership in there. And you have Gorgo fully trusting exactly or knowing the strength of Leonidas and what he's gonna do. Mhmm. Of course, Leonidas wasn't gonna listen to the Oracle and she already knew that. But the Spartans were a very religious people. Yeah. But at the end of the day, you saw Leonidas as being logical above all else. Mhmm. These guys are coming to our land telling us to just worship

40:23Oti: them and then they'll let us be. Of course not. He knew there was gonna be more and and freedom above all else. Those are commented and was it in 300 Rise of the Empire where they were talking about the prefer to die rather than lose the slaves? Yeah. And it's so true. And Leonidas saw that. And regardless of whatever religious festival was happening at the time, this took precedence.

40:45KT: And Gorgo saw that and realized that. Well, the interesting thing about the social structure in Sparta is you have the elites of the Spartiate, and the women were actually in there as well. They were almost considered as citizens, which is very rare Yeah. For an ancient society to have. So like I mentioned before, they also went through schooling and they were taught how to fight and they were actually so they were allowed to exercise and they were also allowed to be educated

41:15KT: as well. So relative to the rest of Greece, they stood out. You know, there are ancient accounts, and I think it was from Plutarch, where he talked about, you know, Sparta being the city of beautiful women. Right? And they were quick witted. And even when we had our best friend Peter Mensah as a messenger, he's like, how would you allow women to speak amongst men? And Gorgo said something to the effect of because only Spartan women give birth to real men. Mhmm. That's a mic drop Yep. Right there.

41:47KT: Right? And I loved Gorgo had such delicious one liners as well, you know, much of the same as men. I feel like aside from the fact that I don't exercise, I feel like I could slot in quite well into Spartan society as a Spartan woman. Do you think you could be a Spartan man?

41:47Oti: Oh, yeah.

41:47KT: Because if but you need to to believe in that beautiful death.

41:47Oti: Yeah. And what's funny about that is oh, so I'm diverting you guys a bit to African history which is quite hilarious.

41:47KT: Oh, no. Oh, no.

42:20Oti: So in Tanganyika, so modern day Tanzania, there used to be a leader called Kinjikitile. And when the Germans invaded, so he formed this rebellion called Maji Maji. Maji is pretty much it's just water. Okay. So he convinced the people that if you drink this water, the German bullets won't hurt you. Oh, wow. The Africans, they didn't have guns or anything. They just had their spears and their daggers. So when you're facing an army that has guns, of course, you'll be scared. Yeah. But he told them, if you drink this water,

42:51Oti: those bullets wouldn't do shit. Mhmm. And, man, an uprising was so brutal. People were really hyped up and they fully believed it. And they ran into battle. They were shot, but they still kept on going. You need to have that. You need to have that. You really do need to have that. And it's one of the things that really transformed this sort of brought up about the nationalism

43:12Oti: in Africa. It was one of the things that really sparked things into into life and made people take note. Because regardless of the number of people who died, yes, it was massive. Apparently,

43:22Oti: around 300,000 people.

43:22KT: Jesus.

43:22Oti: It still sent ripples across Africa.

43:22KT: But morale is very important. It is important. And the way that you approach a battle is very important. It really is. And that's what saw a lot of the success with the Spartans and also on a level Vikings as well. Because there are historical accounts as well where you would have Persian spies, you know, laughing and scoffing at the Spartans because they were all naked, applying perfume, and oiling themselves up. Again, this is not our Friday night. These are historical accounts about the Spartans. But

44:02KT: the point is, the reason why the Spartans were doing that is because they were actually preparing for death. Yeah. And you kind of need to be in that mindset in order to because you need to bring your whole self. You need to leave the fact that you might have a family you've left behind or a family that you're hoping to have, and you need to leave everything on that battlefield. True. And unfortunately, if it's to if it's under the guise of the fact that you won't be hit by these bullets,

44:30KT: then that's what needs to happen. Right? Yep. So it it was very interesting. I definitely wanna talk a bit about Peter Mensah being the messenger because also it was it was a very sacred thing in regards to messengers. You didn't kill them. You left them alone and you didn't kill them. But as soon as Peter Mensah is a messenger, that's what he's credited as, which is very rude. He's just called messenger. When he comes into Sparta, Leonidas says,

44:59KT: your words are your words. Mhmm. Speak carefully. Right? And, you know, these are some of the most delicious moments that you have in regards to 300. Right? Because most Greece sort of city states left messengers alone. Yep. Sparta's like, fuck that shit. You said what you said. Right? And then you have one of the most delicious lines mostly getting used in, like, EDM tracks.

45:28Oti: This is Sparta.

45:28KT: With

45:33KT: the kick. You gotta remember the kick. And that is such a great like, wouldn't you love to be kicked by Gerard Butler in that iconic scene? Yeah. And I wanna believe that when he got kicked into that well, he rolled into the world of Spartacus, and that's his origin story. Yep. Check out our Spartacus episode, guys. He became Doctore because he fell into a hole. Well, we also see him in the Rise of an Empire where he trains Eva Green's character Yeah. As well. So that was quite nice to see the Doctore

46:02KT: in him come out as well. So, you know, there there is a whole sort of underdog dialogue that we have with the Spartans. Right? Historical accounts actually said that the Oracle said that you can go into war, just be prepared for essentially a path of destruction. But in this film, it was like, no, you can't do this. But, essentially, you have 300. I would rather have 300 of the strongest than thousands of potters.

46:32KT: But, you know, they they talk about like potters and sculptors and poets, but so are the Spartans as well. Mhmm. But I would rather have 300 of the strongest.

46:41Oti: I'd rather have the numbers and have an actual strategy on how to utilize them best regardless of their prowess in combat interesting because I think I could do more with a lot more people than I could do with just a handful

46:41KT: Well you could make more mistakes which is what the Persians were doing.

46:41Oti: True but then Xerxes had a god complex and he just thought

46:41KT: Literally.

46:41Oti: Send them out and he'll conquer. So literally not sort of strategy other than just insistent

47:09Oti: pressure.

47:09KT: So you mentioned at the start of the episode in regards to military combat. Let's talk about it. Because so you had scores and scores of the Persian army and 300 of the Spartan soldiers. Right? So we have the imagery and we have the symbolism of Leonidas when he's a kid with the wolf. Right? Effectively finding an advantage and using that against the wolf. Right? Mhmm. A lot of the you know, you can have default advantages when it comes to war, when it comes to combat,

47:46KT: but there are geographical advantages that you can use as well. And what I really what I really found frustrating is, yes, you've got a lot of numbers in regards to the Persian army, but they really didn't learn from their mistakes. They didn't really seem to have any sort of scouts as well that would scope out the land. And I don't know what the rules were in regards to a war, but I kind of would have checked because essentially it became a funnel. Right?

48:17KT: So they mentioned that a lot of times, their their multitudes meant none because they were all getting funneled in through the hot gates otherwise known as Thermopylae.

48:26Oti: Yep.

48:27KT: It was an interesting display. And I know we talked a bit about it, but I definitely wanna give a bit more accolades in regards to the coloring, if you'll pardon the direct pun, and also the cinematography for this film. It is delicious. And I know people joke about it being like, this is just a homoerotic excuse for guys to jerk each other off. Well, friends and lovers, I felt myself growing a dick as I was watching this, and that newly formed Ephialtes dick was getting hard. Like,

49:01KT: why can't we enjoy a film for what it is? Yeah. Right? It was glorious. And people and a lot of the times, I will defend, you know, in a few episodes about the word gratuity. This film was fucking gratuitous, and I was tasting every morsel of that. Yeah. Why not? Why not bathe in the gloriousness that is this film?

49:25Oti: And to know that semblance of it actually happened Oh, yeah. Takes it to a different level.

49:25KT: And, you know, a lot of the times, Xerxes will say,

49:33KT: I will erase you from history. No one will know about this day. Well, he was dead wrong. Yeah. Because the legend of the battle of Thermopylae lives on. And, you know, history is a very interesting thing, and it'll be interesting to see, you know, in 2019 what holds thousands of years from now. Yeah. For Your Reference, obviously, because we're going to shove it in every orifice we can. Imagine if this was the early time capsule that people had for 2019. Bloody hell. We failed humanity. They were like, thank god they're gone.

50:13KT: Thank god the robots have taken over. Right? But it is a beautiful display of camaraderie, of military strategy,

50:22KT: and of the classic sort of underdog story.

50:22Oti: And what got me is, I never knew Xerxes was not a black person. Like, I just always assumed he was Me too. Some brother from somewhere. And then years later, they're, like, showing I think I was reading it. Think I was, like, looking at pictures of it showing the cost of 300 Yeah. Before and now. I'm like, what? This small white fellow was Xerxes. Come on now.

50:22KT: Well, name is Rodrigo Santoro.

50:55KT: So he's got a tan to him. Yeah. Yeah. But that was very disappointing as well. Obviously, he was, like, made to be a giant. A lot of his scenes were in a green screen because they had to obviously enlarge areas

51:09KT: of him.

51:09Oti: Oh, they enlarged a lot of areas.

51:14KT: And they also dropped his voice a whole octave. I really feel like you could have voiced over him.

51:14Oti: Nah.

51:14KT: No?

51:14Oti: Nah.

51:14KT: Not a fan? He'll he had an interesting sort of story even in the second film, but, obviously, it was it was it wasn't grounded in reality. It was more of a fantasy sort of element. In regards to the second film, it was actually supposed to be based off the graphic novel by Frank Miller as well called Xerxes. And I do wanna make it clear, we don't have Rodrigo Santoro

51:45KT: in our studio at the moment. That is actually our dog licking his balls right now. I wanna talk a bit about the politics that surrounded Sparta. First of all, I'm very disappointed that the old men weren't ripped. Yeah. Because I didn't have everyone ripped in society. Well, they should have been. Yeah. They should have been. Like, the baby should come out of the womb with muscles. Like, that's what I was expecting with this beautiful society. But it ties in nicely together with Dominic West's character, Theron.

52:20KT: I can't help but feel like Theron sounds like our cunning exec producer dog, Theo. Who if you've been paying attention has been licking his balls the whole time. Which is not much different to Theron's character as well. What did you think about him? Like his sleazy ass.

52:40Oti: And Uh-huh.

52:41Oti: You could see that he's already been bought off. The first minute, I think they introduced him into the scene was He said it was keeping them company. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you could see that he had he'd already been bought off, he had ulterior motives, it was all about money and gold for him and he'd essentially just sold the whole city down the drain. So I didn't have any love for him as a character even though it's Dominic West and I love him. Mhmm. In this he's just sleazy as and the fact that he took advantage of Lena of Gorgo and

53:13Oti: then later on just went back on his word because he'd already gotten what he wanted to

53:13KT: But did that surprise you though?

53:13Oti: No. He didn't.

53:21Oti: I mean, it didn't but I I expected more from him.

53:21KT: I appreciate it. It had had that sort of element because a lot of the times when there is a threat, you're always expecting a foreign, if you'll pardon the pun, you're you're expecting a foreign sort of entity. Right? But what people don't account for is the domestic sort of entities that are planning and plotting against you. Yeah. So it created a interesting sort of dynamic

53:52KT: as well.

53:52Oti: Yeah. And I guess you always have those sort of people in society. Like Africa had heaps of them who took on the colonies point of view and just fucked everyone else up. So it's I can can we just take some time for that audible gap?

54:08KT: Like, do I go there? Yes. I'm gonna go there. Happens all the bloody time. It does. And but I think from a from a narrative point of view, it's quite interesting to have different dimensions or different sort of characters that are gunning for the seat of your throne. So Theron really introduced a very interesting sort of dynamic. And, you know, him intimidating Gorgo. I really appreciated that Lena and also Gorgo's character was not intimidated by him at all. Yeah. Yes. Yes. He did take advantage of her, but she actually offered herself to him

54:43KT: as a political sort of move Yeah. As well. I know Sparta was quite progressive, but I don't know that she would have been so wholly receptive in that quorum of politics as well. But it was quite an interesting sort of dynamic to see that skeeviness. I think it is possible, at least for me, to enjoy those sorts of characters

55:07KT: if it's done right.

55:07Oti: Yeah. If it's done right. Like, I saw him for who he was and granted if his character just rubbed you the wrong way because of my frame of reference.

55:07KT: Well, he rubbed Gorgo the wrong way.

55:20Oti: Because of my frame of reference but it's just more of, yeah, that's it. It's all about self interest and all. Mhmm. And we have countless people who do that already. So fuck that shit. And I was happy though when Gorgo just didn't take any of that at the end and just stabbed him. It was just lucky enough that probably I thought there would be repercussions for that. Yeah. But until those coins fell, I was like, yeah. Oh, here's a traitor.

55:46Oti: And how feeble are those men? Oh, yeah. They swing like a pendulum from decision to decision. Like, oh, Gorgo is bad. Coins drop. Traitor. Traitor. Yeah. Piss right off. Yeah. Jesus.

56:01KT: It was fucking gross, man. Yeah. But isn't that indicative of our times? It is. Hey, yo. It really is. Like, all around the world. No no politics are safe in regards to this sort of rhetoric. Yeah. For sure. Fucking hell, man. Like, such a beautiful story at least of of the Spartans, not necessarily the politics of it all. But Gorgo's character was so strong.

56:27KT: You know, in a lot of accounts when she speaks to Leonidas for the last time before he embarks on battle, she says, what should I do now? Mhmm. And he says, marry well and bear good sons. And that that really denotes to what the importance was in regards to Sparta. Yeah. And I I do just wanna mention I I definitely wanna talk about Ephialtes,

56:51KT: but I also want to give everyone a reference check, which is also a reality check. You know, you might think you're a Spartan, but I think more often than not, we are Ephialtes. Because I know a lot of the people that listen are podcasters. Hey, go. Hey. But Spartans were essentially jocks. Like, were the most athletic, the most gorgeous. They were getting the most fucking. And then you have Ephialtes in the corner starting his podcast.

57:25KT: No one is safe from KT's wrath. If I can't have my stanky ass underwear, this is what you get. Right? But it's it's like, let's talk about Ephialtes because he's also another element in regards to the narrative that was bringing the downfall of Leonidas. He

57:43Oti: is. And remember when he approached Leonidas, and I told you, he should have just kept him on. But I forgot that Leonidas was like, you could tend to the wounded. You could do something. You could be useful other than being in battle. Because I was gonna say the same thing. I was I was like, why does it just let him be around? Not necessarily in the front lines, but just be around. And that's exactly what was offered. But he he was so

58:07Oti: insistent on actually being there in the front lines. Mhmm. But he couldn't even lift his shield. So Leonidas did nothing wrong with his treatment. He was actually quite nice.

58:18KT: Mhmm. More nicer than I think he would have been in reality. Probably. Probably.

58:22Oti: But he was nice in this movie and he just wanted more. He just wanted something that he couldn't have.

58:22KT: But Oti, this is literally an intervention to tell you that you will never be a Spartan

58:33KT: because the whole ethos of being a Spartan is you know, and even a line in the film that Leonidas says is you are only as strong as the man next to you. Mhmm. Right? And the fact that you would let a weak man be in there in any sort of capacity just shows you that you would not be a Spartan man, unfortunately.

58:55Oti: They formed a dome, whatever, to protect themselves. Like a turtle formation. Yeah. He would be in the center of cradle like the surprise attack.

58:55KT: Maybe in Athens, but not in Sparta.

59:07Oti: Yeah. But

59:07KT: Not in Sparta. And that's why you're not understanding because even if he was, you know, taking the role of cleaning the fields out and watering and feeding the men, he definitely would have turned at the presentation of a coin. He would have done that irregardless. He was the quintessential

59:24KT: sort of weak link that you have in a narrative.

59:24Oti: But don't you think

59:24KT: It doesn't matter how well you would have treated him. He knew that he could never measure up. He knew that.

59:24Oti: But don't he think that's a fundamental problem with how Sparta was as a society We're not how saying it treated people.

59:24KT: I'm not saying that Sparta was the most perfect society from a historical sort of viewpoint, from a satiated high school KT sort of viewpoint.

59:47KT: Yes. I'm I'm living for it and I'm loving it. But I wouldn't wanna live in Sparta.

59:47Oti: True. But I'm just saying like, it brings up questions of fundamental problems of what Sparta was.

59:47KT: But you're talking about a world where everyone gets participation awards. That wasn't Sparta, mate.

59:47Oti: It's not a matter of participation award. It's a matter of being inclusive for everyone that's part of me.

59:47KT: What you're talking about. We're not talking about diversity and inclusion policies that we have in, like, corporations in 2019. This was April.

60:14Oti: It doesn't make it right, does it?

60:14KT: What But are you talking about? We're talking about ancient history. In Game of Thrones, they have rape scenes with Khal Drogo and Daenerys. Do you think that was right?

60:14Oti: No.

60:14KT: Exactly, sir. Disarm yourself, if you'll pardon the direct reference pun. You I it's just it's it's very clear that you wouldn't be a Spartan man. And that's not an insult. That's not a compliment. You can take it however you want.

60:14Oti: And I wouldn't want to be.

60:14KT: This whole this whole podcast is evidentiary

60:40KT: proof that I would be a Spartan woman.

60:40Oti: All I'm saying is they created this problem for themselves and essentially it it led to the killing of the 300.

60:49KT: The only mistake that Leonidas had was he didn't kill Ephialtes.

60:53KT: That was the only mistake. It wasn't that he rejected him.

60:53Oti: Maybe so.

60:53KT: It was the fact that he didn't kill him. And also coming back to our foundational qualms that we mentioned about it not being historically accurate, and it was from the viewpoint of Dilios, I actually don't think that Ephialtes actually looked like that. Because all we have in history is that he was a farmer that betrayed them. Right? It's kind of how you would describe your ex. Like, you would say that she was the ugliest thing around,

61:19KT: you know, she kinda limped and all that sort of shit, but it's not true. Right? It's just from their point of view because he betrayed them, he becomes this grotesque Quasimodo eagle motherfucker looking dude.

61:32Oti: Yep.

61:33KT: Right? So it it's just an interesting sort of dynamic when you introduce a weak link.

61:33Oti: I guess when you're looking at it fully strictly from the movie's point of view and not as a societal issue, then it makes sense.

61:33KT: Well, we're not talking about a society where we love and accept everyone. We're talking about a society where only the strongest thrive.

61:33Oti: But you have councilmen that are shriveled as that can't even do shit.

61:33KT: Yeah. But the rules kinda get thrown out in regards to politics. Right? Because in regards to the social structure in regards to Sparta,

62:03KT: you have the Homoioi, which only consisted of 10,000. And you saw that in the Rise of the Empire film. Right? And then you also have the Perioikoi, which was close to, like, 50,000. And they were more for, like, trade, you know, providing weapons and armor for the elite. And then you have the helots, which were, you know, the the in regards to numbers, they actually got a lot. The helot revolt was actually quite interesting. So if you wanna read up about that and talk to KT, we can have a rousing debate. Or

62:37KT: in agreeance, we can do that as well. But, you know, there there was a social structure in place as well. And we didn't even talk about the fact that sometimes those that are in the can also be shunned as well. You know, as as much as you're powerful and you're and you've got all of those sort of sort of capabilities, you can also be cast out as well and also be isolated. Right? You so even even the elite, they weren't allowed to engage in trade,

63:10KT: whether it was creating weapons or any sort of thing. But if they had been shown as cowardice or, you know, dishonoring what it was to be a Spartan, they would also be cast out as well. What that mean would be any daughters you have won't marry off. And if you wanna get married yourself, you know, no one will offer their daughters to you. Cool. So it wasn't as if they treated their own as well as well. Yeah. So let's round off this episode,

63:39KT: my friends and lovers. If you've still got snacks, please tell us your secret. If you've still got wine, also please tell us your secret. So we have in 300 in particular, we have a fully encapsulated story with a protagonist being Leonidas, with people around him being Gorgo, whether it's Theron, and, you know, everyone his two I see as well. You know, going against the orders of the ephors and also the Oracle as well, coming to fight in the battle of the hot gates otherwise known as Thermopylae. A

64:19KT: lot of times he was asked to kneel and also submit as well and he would never Because again, we talked a lot about, you know, it's your approach to battle and your approach to war. They were looking for a beautiful death. Yep. So there was there was no sort of manipulation. You could fall upon these strong sort of warriors. Right? So you had them. There were some losses, but there were some major wins along the way. Unfortunately, with the sheer multitude of the Persian empire, we saw the downfall. Yeah. So Leonidas

64:58KT: had the cards that he was dealt and he played them very well. He played them very well. And he made sure that all of the structures are in place including Dilios as well. According to historical accounts, he actually didn't get injured in the eye. He just had an eye infection. But like Frank Miller and Zack Snyder, let's not let the truth get in the way of the story. Mhmm. Right? So he said to Dilios, go and tell the rest of Greece that we died a beautiful death.

65:29KT: Right? And Dilios is like, is there anything you want me to say to Gorgo? Again, he did. But according to the film, he said, no words need to be spoken. Also, if you try to do that to me, Oti, I would raise you from the dead just to decimate you. Just to decimate you. But again, he he sets up these structures, Dilios leaves to tell everyone what is going on, and then we have the final scene. And it was a beautiful story. You know? If you want history, go and watch a documentary.

66:05KT: But the way that this film ended was so beautiful. Leonidas, in particular, he is ready. You know? They talk about him dropping his spear, him dropping his shield, him dropping his helmet. But that was only because the helmet was narrowing his vision. The shield was throwing him off at balance. He didn't drop his spear. Apologies.

66:28KT: Come and fight me for many things. But when he had the spear, it was aiming at Xerxes.

66:28Oti: He did drop his spear in the movie though.

66:28KT: Thank you. You're right.

66:28Oti: He dropped his spear and knelt down and then picked it up and threw it once he told Stelios to attack the guy in front of him.

66:28KT: Wow. You really are respecting me in this episode. Maybe you are a Spartan man.

66:28Oti: I am.

66:28KT: And that, my friends and that, my friends, is what you call full character development for Oti.

66:54KT: So he picks up the spear and he throws it towards Xerxes. And at that point, you know it's all guns blazing Yeah. Or all spears hurdling, if you will. Right? And he just goes for broke. And what I love about the final scene is he turns and he faces the sea of spears, you know, fighting in the shade. Yeah. Right? And he faces the spears and he calls out to Gorgo.

67:20Oti: Arrows rather than spears, but yeah. He calls out to Gorgo, which is quite emotional.

67:20KT: Wow. I just gave you full character's development

67:27KT: and then you came and undid it just like Rise of an Empire. It

67:33Oti: was really emotional just seeing that.

67:33KT: It was emotional until you open your mouth.

67:33Oti: You accept the outcome and this is what you need to. The fact that this only spurred spurred her to go to war makes it that much better.

67:33KT: Which was exactly what I was saying before you interrupted me.

67:33Oti: Just I finished your thriller thought meet.

67:33KT: And yet much inferior.

67:55KT: So let's close off this episode with the final one of the final quotes of this film delivered by Dilios. Remember us, as simple an order as a king can give. Remember why we died. For he did not wish tribute, no song, no monuments, no poems of war and valor. His wish was simple. Remember us, he said to me. This was his hope. Should any free soul come across that place in all the countless centuries yet to be, may all our voices whisper to you from the ageless stones. Go tell the Spartans, passerby, that here, by

68:38KT: Spartan law, we lie. So, you know, we've we've climaxed and now we're at a point where you get some snacks post coitus, my friends and lovers, as we dive into a segment we call For Your Reference. Oti.

68:53Oti: What do I reference for this? Is it an African movie? I think I'll go with Spartacus first. Nice. Just because you get to see Doctore as well in the epitomensa. He's great in it. It's a sort of kind of couple dynamic you get with Leonidas and Gorgo with Spartacus and Sura. Mhmm. And you just love these couples, couples and you see how they spur each other along and how everything is about fighting for what you believe in. So Spartacus is one thing that you really have to watch if you've not.

69:24Oti: My second reference would be Game of Thrones. You get to see Lena Headey in there. Like, she's amazing. She is great. And when we were watching the film, I was saying that she belongs to be on screen. Yeah. She she really is. She's a great actor. And you get to see her in a full glorious sassy in Game of Thrones. Whether or not you agree with how it ended, it's still a great show. It's entertaining as Even I had some enjoyable moments even though I don't care for it as an overall story.

69:58KT: And I will reference Vikings. Mhmm. Skål, motherfuckers. Vikings is actually if you're listening to this in real time, Vikings is coming back in less than a month. Oh. Oh. And the cute thing about our references, because it is purely coincidental and we didn't mean to do this, well, we actually have an episode on Spartacus, two episodes of Game of Thrones, and we also have an episode on Vikings just to satiate you before the final season. Are you excited, Oti?

70:28Oti: Beyond.

70:29KT: Beyond excited. Beyond forever. Beyond excited. Yep. And and just like the title of the Vikings episode, I've always wanted to die a glorious death. And if that isn't the most Viking slash Spartan thing you've ever heard, then we don't wanna hear it, really, to be honest. But thank you so much for joining us along this journey. It started off as a discussion about the movie, and then it became more about historical facts, particularly in regards to Oti's Corner.

71:02KT: Hey. Life is all about our frame of reference. And if you really feel like you can enjoy something without your personal experiences leaking into it, then there are some demons you need to reconcile, my loves. For sure. But thank you so much for listening. Please continue to listen. If you've listened to a few episodes, we love you. If it's the first time you're listening, we love you even more. On Twitter and Instagram, we are for your ref pod. You can write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com. And, again, we've launched Patreon,

71:35KT: so please make sure you check out the details if you wanna support us some more. And see you next week. We dine in Hades.

71:44Oti: See you. Bye.