13: Game of Death – Puchit to the limit

Full transcript of 13: Game of Death – Puchit to the limit.

0:00KT: It's another week in the For Your Reference household, and we are doing what the kids call a throwback. Unguess me. Oh, wow. We love the genre of the Lord of the Oti morality flies. And I would love to know, in the films that we're covering today, 13 Game of Death and 13 Sins, who would survive and successfully win the Michael Douglas game? Three, two, one. You. It will be you. Fact. Non fecal spoiler. Are definitely going to get into the show.

0:36KT: Oti is happy to win, but we'll come to see you probably shouldn't be happy that you're going to win.

0:36Oti: Doesn't matter to me.

0:44Oti: A win is a win. Am I right, king simp?

0:47KT: Let's get on with the show. Hey, friends and game lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host, KT.

0:47Oti: And Oti.

0:47KT: Ring ring. Answer the call with the practical lesson of liking big bahts and following through the reality spank of faux morality. Check the caller ID with 13 Game of Death and 13 Sins this week. Runner back with a remake. Welcome, welcome, welcome, friends and lovers. If you follow us in a linear timeline, we have been dabbling in in a lot of real life tough shit.

1:56KT: And, you know, we we recently did Romeo Must Die, which was a lot of fun. For those that are new to the For Your Reference household, you might not be that I am KT Tremagassi, and we do love the Cube of it all. We do love the El Hoyo of it all, and we do love most recently the Tomodachi Game of it all. Mhmm. It's it's definitely a genre that we love to talk about, and I definitely wanna talk about it generally. But let's get into stats and information before we get into that.

2:27KT: If you are super nasty, continue to join us, but this is your gracious warning, spoiler spoiler spoiler, caller ID caller ID caller ID. Oti. Mhmm. This is a little bit of time, a little bit of love, and all of the accolades. This is the first Thai film that we've covered on the For Your Reference podcast.

2:27Oti: It is.

2:27KT: And I guess we can talk about it later, but I am quite new to Thai films. And after watching this, I kinda wanna dabble more.

2:27Oti: Yeah. We absolutely need to cover a lot more.

2:57KT: The original film, 13 Game of Death, otherwise known as 13 Beloved, was released in 2006. It was adapted from an episode inside of a comic book series

3:10Oti: Wow.

3:11KT: By Eakasit Thairaat. In regards to writers and director of this Thai film, we have Chukiat Sakveerakul. In way of cast, we have Krissada Sukosol, Achita Sikamana, and Sarunyu Wongkrachang. Mhmm. Oh, in regards to 13 Sins, it obviously was based on the Thai film. In regards to the director, we have Daniel Stamm, writer of David Birke, and the cast of Mark Webber, Devon Graye, and Tom Bower. Mhmm.

3:45KT: Wow. Wow. Wow. Oti. Okay. Well, let's get into first impressions. There's a couple of themes that are definitely bitey enough. If you're not watching out, it'll bite you in your own ass. And that might be one of the tasks. Oh, wow. Actually. But let's get into first impressions. We can talk a little bit about the genre if you want. Again, go and check out all of our episodes. Obviously, we will reference them throughout, and they probably will be our references at the end. We

4:14KT: really enjoy watching these films. So I think this came out of you googling films like Cube. And Devil was one of them as well. Bokeem Woodbine, thank you very much.

4:14Oti: Yeah. Great film.

4:14KT: So what did you feel about this film? How did you feel throughout? I think we'll start because we had watched 13 Sins first. So this is was a very interesting experience that we had where we watched the remake before we watched the original, which was quite an interesting sort of experience. So just give us general first impressions

4:48KT: because we started with the 13 Sins remake, and then, like, you just a general mouthful of Oti mouthisms.

4:57Oti: I love my mouthisms.

4:57KT: So do I.

4:57Oti: So for some reason, never heard of 13 Sins up until the suppositas such. And I love to

4:57KT: Are

5:07KT: we at a deposition?

5:08Oti: Thank you, Oti Greg.

5:11KT: Thank you, Oti Greg. If it's to be said, so it be. Thank you, Oti Greg.

5:17Oti: Go check out our Succession episodes, friends and lovers. But wow. I think watching 13 Sins, I got quite into it. I loved it. Up until the ending, well, I felt like that was a bit cowardly. Yeah.

5:29Oti: It didn't distract me to the same extent as or it did distract or disturb me to the same extent as game did, but it still left a bit of taste.

5:29KT: There's still the Oti mouthisms, which is most welcome if you're nasty.

5:29Oti: Yeah. And when you mentioned that it was a remake, was super keen to watch the original and to see how exactly the two compared. So when we dove into talking Game of Death, I was like, okay. This is brilliant. I've I've never heard of this. Yeah. And it made so much sense that the protagonist has so much well, it's it's it's led to his experiences, and I love that about it. Yeah. It made it feel and it did it didn't take itself too seriously either. Yeah. You know, it wasn't like, oh, this is serious. Starting, you know, 13 Sins. It's all hurt, death, and agony. Yeah. No. There's some really cute funny moments in there, and I love the ridiculousness.

6:19Oti: I love the overacting in some bits. And you you just they just dove into that without even, you know, holding themselves to some, oh, we need to be this serious movie because you're dealing with heavy topics. But no, I love that. I'll I really love that. I think the original just made me feel even way like 13 Sins way less.

6:19KT: Yeah. And I think just, you know, curtailing on your delicious mouth isms.

6:47KT: I think maybe in future, maybe this will be an interesting way to watch things because we did as a standalone like remake before we realized there was a remake as a standalone, we actually really enjoyed the film. Right?

6:47Oti: Yeah. We did.

6:47KT: And we obviously still enjoy it now, but it's definitely nothing compared to what the original film is.

6:47Oti: Facts.

6:47KT: So I guess in general, you know, what I really, really love about the Delroy Lindo quarrel or the Christoph Waltz quandary, at the moment, we're playing the quarry. But

7:27KT: what I really love about this genre is no matter how salacious it is, no matter how ridiculous it is, and no matter how many steps from reality it is, it always denotes to, again, this faux sort of morality where morality is kind of a privilege because if you've if you've grown up in circumstances where you were the have not, there are absolutely decisions that you had to make that other people would judge otherwise. Mhmm. And what I really love about, you know, this this sort of genre is that it removes the layer of pretension,

8:03KT: and it also reveals the true colors of people.

8:03Oti: It does. And I think the two when you overlay the two and just look at Puchit or Elliot, you can see how they made it so different. Elliot always comes back to his humanity at every single step. It gets to the point of him feeling

8:20Oti: bad every step of the way up to the thirteenth scene.

8:20KT: But I would actually argue it's faux humanity and faux morality.

8:20Oti: And I'd be there with you.

8:20KT: Because, bro, if one of the task is to go and make a kid cry and your instant reaction and you're the, in quotes, nice guy and your instant reaction to say this is the kid is your mother doesn't love you.

8:41KT: He could have called the kid ugly, but saying your mom doesn't love you, that kid's gonna be in therapy for decades now. Yeah. And when you look at what Puchit did with that situation,

8:50Oti: it was like, oh, make a kid cry. Okay. It's not the fucking end of the world. Yeah. Sorry for parents out there. But but it was it was such an easy task and we saw Puchit just execute it as as as quickly and as harmless as as he could be. Yeah. And again,

9:09KT: I don't know if we would dabble into it. I never really have much of a semblance unless we do like a Patreon watch along of like the American adaptation of Oldboy. But I don't think even watching that before the OG Oldboy would save it for me. No. When

9:28KT: the world is smiling with you, Oti.

9:28Oti: And think that's where the difference is because with Oldboy, we we loved it so much that we drew a line to do we want to bastardize this? Because at the end of the day, it is fucking bastardizing, you know? And

9:43KT: and But even with, you know, because I am maybe not officially part of the Bong Hive, I do have a tent outside of the institution. So I am adjacent to the Bong Hive. You know, there there is I do feel this, like, this need to gatekeep quality cinema. But also at the same time, it's a fucking business, and it was signed off to do, you know, the the upcoming project to the American remake

10:10KT: of Parasite. So I can't really say too much, you know, especially if I'm not the one that created it because friends and lovers, go and listen to our Matrix episode, non gendered film bros and otherwise, it doesn't fucking belong to you. All the Star Wars fans, it doesn't fucking belong to you. How do you have centuries rich lore and the thought of a black person just bothers your whole Matrix? Come and catch these hands, friends and lovers.

10:39KT: But, yes, I I absolutely loved it. And, you know, obviously, we're going to do a nice little cohesive comparison back and forth between the two films. And, you know, like I've mentioned, we've got a lot of episodes regarding this genre. And I guess if we're talking about, like, real life genre and just my chance to be a book wanker again, we did cover the film Alive, which is like a real life example of showing people's true colors and, you know,

11:07KT: not being so quick to judge decisions that you would never be put in yourself. Yeah. So we'll definitely talk about the genre throughout. But what I wanted to do just generally was talk about Thai cinema. And I again, this is kind of like the first sort of pepperings, the first sort of seasonings, the first sort of tastings for me. And I don't know what took us so fucking long Oti.

11:07Oti: Yeah. No idea.

11:07KT: It it it really struck a balance between tone tone tone

11:36KT: is and I'm not talking about

11:36Oti: Oh, I thought Tony! Toni! Toné!.

11:36KT: Yeah. And that avaturity. Sun is on. That show ended way too quickly. No. But, like, the I think both of us can agree. The reason why we love 13 Game of Death was because the tonally, it it really matched the world that it was setting out. And and especially Puchit who we were following throughout the story, it was possible to dig deep and to also have levity in the most ridiculous of ways.

12:07KT: I'm really interested to dabble into more Thai cinema. I just loved it. It was so interesting. It was so interesting watching this film. And I this kind of rolls into the theme that I wanna talk about. Social commentary slash conspiracy. Social commentary kind of leans more towards the Thai original. Conspiracy is kind of where we have the American remake. Obviously, we're going to talk about characters,

12:33KT: and I definitely wanna talk about the tasks as well and how it translated and, you know, where it did it better. But essentially, what I wanted to talk about was I love how effective 13 Game of Death was in the sense that if we're talking about, you know, the inevitable true nature of people not necessarily being the shake your hand, please and thank you sort of society that we're all, you know, acclimated to behave in. I really enjoyed it. I think it was done very effectively.

13:05KT: There was also real themes that were specific to Thailand. And we see that in a couple of instances, especially with Chu, how they talk about the aging population and even their own families kind of aren't there. So they're alone, they're on their own. And it's kind of an issue that no one wants to talk about and it doesn't really get addressed. Yeah. So I thought that was quite interesting. And, you know, just social commentary in general, you know, him being in a company and well, it's not necessarily a commentary

13:36KT: type thing, but he is that kind of pushover that doesn't necessarily do well. But, you know, like, Wankers is where the salespeople go. You know what I mean? Like, he kinda needs to be that's kind of the breed that comes out of the sales factory. So it kinda made sense that the writing was on the wall for him. But even in the sense that he had all of these overdraft bills, he had obligations to his mother. And even though we it was very clear this man had, you know, not a baht to his name,

14:07KT: He was still saying that he was going to send his mom money. You know, he was in a bind. He was trying to find his way out, not necessarily to the scale of, you know, when we when we talk in Squid Game or when we talk about it in Parasite,

14:22KT: But there was definitely an insurmountable debt that he wasn't able to, you know, reconcile within himself.

14:22Oti: True. And it's it's one of those things that we get to now feel more in need to put it Yeah. Than than I would necessarily ideally with Elliot. Yes. We we saw him that he had a loving wife. This is something that Puchit never really got. Yeah. Puchit was trying to follow May who had dumped him just because of all the difficulty that he has to try and elevate him outside of poverty. Yeah. And that immediately connected me to Puchit just because, you know, the struggle, mate.

14:22KT: Yeah. King Simp, we said it in the cold open.

14:59KT: Oti, meet yourself.

15:02Oti: Bloody hell. No. No. No. If if you disagree with me, say so. You know, if if you felt like Elliot was bringing the the pain

15:10Oti: at the fourth

15:10KT: I one I can agree with you and you can also be king simp. Two things can be true, my love. By the way, your subscription expired and I need you to top that up.

15:10Oti: Oh, bloody hell.

15:10KT: No. I absolutely agree. And I guess that's quite interesting as well because with these two films, even though we were focusing on Puchit, it did have a lot to say without any sort of context of Thailand. Like it did have a lot to say about the country and what, you know, culturally

15:40KT: the cast or the characters were going through. Right? Right. With 13 Sins, know, without the trademark sort of plot points, it kinda just felt like another film. Like I did enjoy it, but it didn't have anything to say other than the story that was there. You see what I'm saying? I hear Like the task was where he takes a random man and takes him to a diner. Like that had a lot of tension and it was definitely, you know, part of the buildup in 13 Sins, but to add the layer of Chu

16:12KT: being alone. And then we later found out that his family were in the same house. Luckily, across. But he had also been dead for ten days or, you know, like, I don't know how long you would last down in that well unless you're rest in peace, Andy Whitfield and Jai Courtney and Spartacus. Like, I don't know how long you would have lasted, but he would have been dead for a good amount of time. For the amount of decomposition

16:35Oti: that the body was he was dead for a long time in there. Yeah. Absolutely.

16:41KT: But what I'm saying is, you know, you have the same sort of task, you know, deal with a dead body in some sort of way, but it had a more guttural social commentary punch in 13 Game of Death compared to 13 Sins. Right? True. So I really enjoyed that. I think I think it can be agreed overall that, you know, Game of Death did it better in regards to social commentary. And I think that's all not not to say that every film needs to say something beyond the characters,

17:11KT: but when it's done right, oh, it's just a ride to Splooshtown, friends and lovers. Well, let's talk about conspiracy. Interestingly enough, we got like a Death Note situation near the end of Game of Death.

17:26KT: Did it feel ridiculous to you?

17:26Oti: I was sort of disappointed, but it didn't distract it it didn't make me feel as if, oh, fucking, I'm gonna throw this out the window. I just felt, why a kid? But I let it go because up until then, it had delivered quite well. Yeah.

17:44Oti: I loved that Tong really wanted to stand for something and for Puchit to stuff or something. Puchit would never do this. Puchit does, you know? And I'll But I I said to you when we were watching it, I was like, this Tong lady has probably never had money struggles. Like, she don't know. It looked like she was quite well off, you know? There you go. Yeah. So

18:03KT: so yeah. Different lands and all. See, don't wanna sound like the Park mom in Parasite, but that's why rich people are nice. They're nice because they're rich. But I guess what I wanna talk about is the conspiracy sort of element. It was interesting that they would have that layer in Game of Death because I think it already did it quite well. I wasn't expecting that

18:30KT: that Death Note sort of moment. It did bother me, but then it kind of, like, it kind of sat with me. It's it's settled within my soul, and I was actually okay with it. Conspiracy kind of leans more towards 13 Sins. How did you feel about it? Did did it become an eye rolling inducing sort of moment? Because they had all of these photos of like moments throughout history, you know, one of the bigger ones being JFK's assassination. Like, saying and not even implying, like, directly saying

19:01KT: that this is all people participating in the game. All of the unexplained things that are happening is because of the orchestration of the game. Right? How did you did it feel a bit too ambitious? Was it eye roll y or did you did you, like, respect it? And you're like, yeah, this is pretty cool, Perlman guy.

19:01Oti: No. It felt a bit

19:24Oti: low level, low brow sort of stuff to me. I just

19:24KT: Oh, dear Oti.

19:24Oti: No. Like, what the fuck? We always have to have fucking conspiracies and everything, and then they they sort of tapestry it. Oh, in history is because about the game. When I watched this the first time, I was like, oh, cool. Okay. No worries. I don't like the conspiracy aspect of it, and I'm glad that both of those people involved in it died quite soon. It's but having to watch the original one thirteen

19:55Oti: Game of Death, was like, oh my god. Thank god. People can just have fucking shit going on without it being tied to it making sense or trying to make everything fit into some sort of neat orchestration or some shit. Yeah. We've watched our Mads in Riders of Justice, know, shit just happens sometimes. Yeah.

20:15KT: Bloody hell. Anyway, yeah. But I think that's part of the problem because for all of us that say we wanna be mysterious, we also define ourselves by star signs. Mhmm. For those that say we wanna, you know, blaze our own trail, we also want the unknown to be explained to us. And that's why institutions like religion continue to have staying power Oti. Mhmm. But we are the two popes, so I will continue on.

20:15Oti: Wow. I think you're Pope via Olivia Pope. Scandalous as shit.

20:46Oti: Yeah.

20:48KT: I don't know. Like, obviously, I was I was leading the witness. I I didn't care for the conspiracy sort of angle, but it's the snarky like, oh, look, we're doing something and directly pointing to the fact that they're trying to do something. That's not necessarily impressive to me. But anyway, let's continue. I think we already established that Puchit is the better sort of, you know, Christopher Nolan protagonist in this particular instance. I kinda wanna go through the tasks that we have. You know, we also said in the cold open who would win.

21:27KT: Even when we watched 13 Sins, I told you very early that I would not maybe kill a fly, but I would not even eat a fly. Like, you would you would lose me at the second of the 13 tasks. Yeah. I know. I wanna do a quick drill down of the tasks between the both both of the movies and just explore how we felt about how it was executed between the two films and, you know, I guess just generally. Interestingly, if we're talking about like the building of tension,

21:58KT: 13 Sins was very urgent. It was very desperate to get to the next task, you know, you know, to be able to get Elliot to where he needs to go. It was very urgent and it was very desperate, not in a bad way, but there was a despaircy to be able to move quickly through the task even though there was a huey from the boys back and forth that Elliot had about his morality. But it's like, motherfucker, we're in. Like, we're in this shit. And it's like, you elected

22:27KT: to participate just like Squid Game. Right? Like you elected to participate in this game. Therefore, yes, you can walk away, but you're going all like, you did all of the shit to get where you are. Continue. Yeah. Yeah. Right? So the first one is kill a fly, which is pretty straightforward. I think we would both do that. Swallow a fly. Thoughts?

22:27Oti: I'd do that. Easy.

22:27KT: This

22:48KT: is not an interesting fact, so please don't put it on any Wiki articles you might have of me. But I've I I have countless occasions where flies have flown up my nose. So maybe I would be okay with swallowing a fly.

22:48Oti: You've probably swallowed dozens already.

22:48KT: Hey, we're not talking about KT swallowing corner. Okay? Well, with Oti's mouth isms, we're definitely in for a good Sunday evening. I'll tell you that much. Wow. What a lovely spluchalter to be at. This

23:19KT: is very interesting. So like I was saying with 13 Sins, there was a rapid pace and building of tension, but the stakes were so much higher in the Thai film. If we're talking about the nature of the tasks, they were definitely higher. So the third one was the same. So it was to make a child cry. It was just one in 13 Sins. In Game of Death, it was to make three children cry. Because it's a fucking nonstarter.

23:43Oti: And he'd already started Elliot had already started having problems with that task. Yeah. He was like, oh, oh, is this right? What I'm gonna do? Yeah. Like me. Yeah. We've barely even started. Yeah. And that's what I appreciate when Puchit. He was like, oh, okay. Easy. Easy. Let me go downplay. I'll make a couple of kids cry.

23:43KT: Well, what was his default in pushing a kid? Like, I don't understand.

23:43Oti: Yeah. The default was a bit weird. There's a couple more things you can do before pushing them. Yeah. But they're in karate class, so they thought it was all games. It was all fun. Yeah. Yeah. Was all fun. So they're all happy

24:15Oti: up until he crushed a kid's toy. Yeah. Yeah. But but Elliot took it, I think, a bit darker. Yeah. Telling a kid that, oh, your mom doesn't love you. That's why they're talking there. You know, I was like, what the fuck? Like, I'm I'm sure I'm sure that kid's mom will fuck that kid up enough. You don't need to Yeah. You don't need to start the trauma, Ali. I do need to add to that.

24:36KT: So the next one that we have, there was a homeless person, but Elliot just stole his clothes. He didn't beat him up, but in Game of Death, Puchit did beat him up and rob him. And then there was the burning of the nativity scene in 13 Sins, which, you know, I thought that was kind of funny. I think that was kind of where the lightness of the film in 13 Sins kind of ended and then it kind of just became like like you said, we're taking ourselves very seriously. This is very serious.

25:10KT: Cut to Game of Death and he served a plate of feces. Yeah. Shit got real. Talk shit, eat shit. Wow.

25:18Oti: But, yeah, it it it sort of because once he he beat up a beggar and stole his money without any problem. Yeah. I was like, okay, this kid is in. This he's fucking born in. I loved it. We talk all the time, friends and lovers, how we get frustrated with protagonists that take too long to accept the world. And Puchit was like, say less. And this is also where you get to see the difference between the protagonists and and their level of suffering. Elliot has problems getting $5

25:48Oti: by making a kid cry. Yeah. And Puchit, he's on task five, and he's been served with a plate of feces, he's like, oh, this is hard, man. But you know what? My life was shit, so let me just eat it all. Right? And he fucking left the tomatoes. You know you've gone through shit where you're served a plate of shit with fucking garnish on the side and you leave the fucking garnish and you go straight for the shit.

25:48KT: Well, I I think he just needed to get through,

26:16KT: know, and I I think to Carcetti, you know, the the better Aidan Gillen sort of roles. But go and check out Kin, Gangs of Dublin, the podcast episode we have. But he talks about when he becomes a mayor, oh, yummy eating a bowl of shit every day. Proverbial in that sense. But yeah. Like but you're right. Like, you know you've been through some shit when you're not even worried about the garnish. You're not even worried about like trying

26:43KT: to temper the taste. You're just like, I'm doing it. I'm gonna get it done. Leave me alone.

26:49Oti: So let me ask you, would you would you you're Puchit, Task five, you're starting to play off shit. Will you do it?

26:49KT: Man, we don't have an OnlyFans, but I feel like that's a very

26:59KT: paywall question, Oti. And then we have the so if we're talking about Game of Death, you wonder, because if that's the fifth task out of 13, what the fuck is in in store for you? Right? Like, I feel like, I don't understand. If we're talking about in the realm of film, just within a podcast episode, non cancelable, non legal cancelable tender, I think I would be more willing to kill a random stranger than eat shit. Yeah. I can be Dexter and you can be Doakes or Doakesy.

27:37Oti: We also get a primo bus action scene. Yeah. It felt a bit odd and cocky. Nobody bus well, you know, he he was holding up his hold against, what, five, six odd people. Yeah. So fair play mate. He he he was fully boarded. He was like, fuck it. I've got a bunch of people here.

27:37KT: This is the third bus action scene we've covered in the For Your Reference podcast.

28:00KT: We've also done Shang-Chi and I would say on any given day, Puchit after eating shit would take down Simu Liu any day. But

28:10Oti: man, I I just enjoyed how he he he didn't have any fucking trepidation around it that I'm doing this for my for my benefit. I wanna get that money. I wanna improve my fucking life. I'm gonna I've done other things. I'm not gonna lose now. I'm not gonna give up now. If it's fighting this fucking bastards, might as well.

28:10KT: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely agree.

28:33KT: I don't know, was it quite clear on Puchit? Was he romanticizing his past relationship? He was sadly. But not sadly, very funnily. One of the funniest scenes that I really enjoyed in this film. Well, I guess it was, you can also say it's toxic masculinity, but it the default response that Puchit had once he noticed that May's boyfriend was abusing her. Yeah. Yeah. He was going WWF in that bitch.

29:04Oti: He did not hesitate. He didn't. We just needed his signature move. He was like, why are you getting up? Why are you getting up? Until he hit him in the head. He was like, yeah, that'll do it.

29:15KT: I personally really enjoyed I don't know if this like if this is like a Thai mannerism or if it was just a funny sort of dialogue to have in the film. When the nephew answered the phone and Puchit was asking, are you a relative? And he's like, not really, I'm his nephew. Yeah. And then we have the dad come along and he said, not really, I'm just his son. I just really enjoyed that. That was very funny to me.

29:15Oti: Yeah. That was wild.

29:15KT: And then we've got the same sort of parallels

29:45KT: with the old woman and the clothesline. How did you feel about the way it was executed in both films?

29:45Oti: They're all quite similar. Yeah. To be fair, they're quite similar. The the the only difference is what I didn't appreciate for 13 Sins after the fact is Elliot's knowledge that there was another player because that takes away from

30:05Oti: or at least that would have taken away from the ending. You're gaming the game at that point. Yeah. Yeah. Because with Game of Death, you don't know up until the end. Yeah. And it's the plot twist. It's the M. Night Shyamalan. Gotcha. That you're looking for. Yeah. And I just appreciated how they delivered that because even when so with the with the hanging line in 13 Sins, we get that Elliot is

30:29Oti: you know, he's helped the old woman, all that. He tries to stop it, but then there's another guy that comes and does it. Well, we know he's it's his brother Yeah. And puts up a different line. I'm like, what? Yeah. Why are you taking Elliot away from these decisions that he's made?

30:44KT: Like, it's all now, oh, Elliot, I I I took down the line. Now it's not my responsibility. It decompresses the accountability of Elliot. Absolutely. And I think the I think the best way to describe the two films is, like, when you're building a dish, Game of Death continued to season and nurture the dish. Meanwhile, 13 Sins kept adding side dishes around it. Yeah. I think there was a lot to diffuse the accountability of Elliot, which didn't necessarily make sense to me because, again, if we're watching these moral quandaries,

31:18KT: I want to see people be put in a corner where all they can do is make you know, if I may borrow a South Park reference, even though Oti has been referencing Human Centipede this whole time, you know, between a shit sandwich and a douche. Mhmm. So it it I don't know. Like, I I I don't like that the more we talk about it, the less I like 13 Sins because standalone when we watched it initially,

31:45KT: I was revving.

31:45Oti: Me too. And that's why I'm so bitter right now. I feel like I've been cheated from an experience where I would have enjoyed probably Game of Death more not knowing what's going to happen. And 13 Sins dropped me off that just because I didn't I wasn't aware that it it was a remake of another thing.

32:06KT: Yeah. I don't know. I think they were just delving in too much of taking the a meta approach to all of the mechanisms of the game, which isn't necessarily interesting. Like, even with Michael Douglas's The Game without any sort of spoilers, if you've skipped that podcast episode or if you haven't watched the film. I I am new to the horny boy Michael Douglas.

32:33KT: But yeah. So in the game, it wasn't necessarily the mechanisms of it, more so that it focused on, you know, his journey throughout being a participant in the game. And I think that's what's more compelling, you know, than explaining to us the outside. And it kinda reminds me because we just watched, is it 10 Cloverfield Lane? Yeah. It's good to know what happened to Walter, our John Goodman in The Big Lebowski.

32:58KT: Like, there's something more compelling and obviously to form for me, I get my kicks out of, you know, the the the surfacing of true human nature through participating in the game as opposed to the mechanisms of the game. And, you know, like you said, like, at that point, I didn't realize it was the brother. But in any case, that there was another opponent getting hyped up on that salaciousness as opposed to Elliot making decisions because they

33:26KT: they pretty much said it and they didn't really demonstrate it more than they reinforced it in dialogue in 13 Sins. In the fact that anybody is capable of being a fucking monster, which I was so into. I was all the way in for, know, nature nurture and all that sort of thing. So I was really enjoying the dialogue, but I'm like, show me, man, like, show me more of that. And if we're talking about the clothesline scene in general,

33:54KT: I really enjoyed the initial, like the start of the scene in 13. I think that was very gripping and like cinematically, it definitely stands on its own, but then they kept continuing and he stopped them before doing it. And then, his brother came along and actually did it. Like, I didn't care for the resets of that. Me too. I think it was better executed in Game of Death. Absolutely. Yeah. 100%. What I also like is as wilder as it was, you know, eight shitting of it all aside, there was definitely a barometer

34:33KT: of the loss of faux humanity. You know, we're talking about something so simple and I'm not even talking about, you know, daddy Roy in Succession and making kids cry. But, you know, there's a tempering of the task. And what I really liked, and it was also in the dialogue, but I don't think it was executed in the American one. But it was also reinforced through both films that these tasks, albeit banal, like through the 13 Sins dialogue, it's specific and it's going to be challenging for you specifically. Right?

35:06KT: I love the use of flashbacks in Game of Death. I think it was very effective. A lot of the emotional sort of pulls in this film are the connection between a seemingly random task to, you know, the backstory of Puchit.

35:23Oti: Yeah. It shows us that it's all tied together. It's not just random games. Each each sin has its own weighted experience

35:32Oti: that makes him, you know, emotional or or get into a flurry because of his past. And Yeah. That's the deepness that we didn't get with 13 Sins.

35:32KT: Yeah. Absolutely. I absolutely agree. And even if you notice, they work their way up to full blown murder. Mhmm. I guess while we're staying on Game of Death, cause we're going to jump to some of the tasks that were unique to 13 Sins. How did you feel about the final task, you know?

35:59KT: And I also mentioned while we were watching this film, especially when they had the flashback of the dad, I'm like, is he white? So obviously that brings another layer of dialogue. And obviously his upbringing would point to the fact that his father's white. But it was it was interesting to have the flashbacks. But what again, what I really love, it wasn't like go out and kill someone or even, you know, in 13 Sins there was amputating, which isn't necessarily killing. But if we're talking about getting from one to 13, there was definitely a better

36:35KT: a better sort of temperature gauge in regards to how far would you go sort of circumstance. Even though I feel like eating shit would be further into the 13, not right at the start. But anyway, like, even if we talk about the last couple of ones, it was well, the first of all, he decapitated, but he wasn't aware of that. He wasn't conscious of it. Maybe it was a like an initial shock to get him to realize that like people get caught, you know, that's how life be sometimes.

37:06KT: And then there was the killing of Tong or the dog. So obviously, you know, unless we're talking about eating shit because apparently it's an easy decision. Know, killing someone is is obviously something that's very difficult and it's not something you walk into. Right? So killing a person isn't something that you would just walk into doing. So the killing of the dog made more sense in that particular regard. So there was killing the dog, slaughtering a cow,

37:36KT: and then killing his own father. So you see what I'm saying? Like, there was a buildup to the end game. Mhmm. And I really, really appreciated that. I just wanna talk a couple of seconds about the fact that Puchit chose not to kill his father.

37:51Oti: Yeah. Because then we get another flashback that he actually tried to kill his father when he was younger just because of the amount of times he was beating on the mom and him. And I was like, okay. This has legs.

38:05KT: Do it. Do it. Yeah. The legs used to beat their son.

38:09Oti: But with every situation, you know, your father isn't always bad for a 100% of the time, And he started reminiscing on the moments where he was actually good to him and the fun and the and the sort of caring moments he had. And I was the minute he he they showed us that, was like, yeah. Sure. He's not gonna do it.

38:09KT: It was emotional fucking whiplash, man. Like,

38:30KT: the I think there was an instance of three times going back and forth, like, was he a good dad? Was he not a good dad? But you know that what? That's fucking life, man. Like, I say it a lot on the podcast, there's nothing as unconditional love. Mhmm. And the the litmus test of that is saying you love your parents, but also having a real conversation about your own childhood. Like, if you can't say anything

38:53KT: that isn't necessarily negative, but if you can't say real shit about the way you were brought up to your parent, then no, that's not unconditional. I I feel like I felt sad because, you know, I'm a third act gal, you know. I I buy into the premise very early and when we get to the third act, I want blood and slaughter. Mhmm. I don't want fecal matter, but I want blood and slaughter. Right? So I was that's

39:19KT: a lot to say that I'm all the way in. Right? I wanted him to have that moment. I wanted him to have that moment. However, as we always say, no one can fuck you up more than your parents. I understood why he chose not to.

39:32Oti: Me too. I do understand that moment. But I think now the surprise was the dad. It was his part of the task. Imagine in his situation, he was told as part of it, I didn't task, you'll be blindfolded and sedated. Yeah. Do you know what the fuck is happening and whatever comes near you, stop it or whatever.

39:32KT: And maybe that's like the difference of like American cinema

39:55KT: and I guess in this particular instance Thai cinema because they did mention at the start of the film that other people were playing the game, but they didn't fucking hit you over the head with it that they did in 13 Sins. And then they also made it like that the dad was playing the game too. And it's like, we're focusing too much on like the orchestration. Can we actually just like get in the game? Yeah. So it was like, they wanted us to make it very clear. They wanted us to have a Hardy Boys clue that people are playing the game. Oh, it's the brother. You know what I mean? Like, can we just stay in it? So

40:30KT: let's get into 13 Sins, at least the the tasks that weren't necessarily in the OG original. I talked about emphasing of the arm. That kinda felt just like not to the level that they just put it in to put it in, but like I'm like, okay. So what direction is this? Because this Elliot is not latching on to anything and here he is. Maybe maybe it's a writing thing because I get it. If Elliot is constantly

40:58KT: going back and forth on whether he should do this or not, there needed to be some sort of out or some sort of, again, decompressing of the accountability of Elliot. So they introduced that the bully knew and it was in his best interest to get his arm cut off because he was playing the game as well. Yeah. Because on it alone, it wasn't enough to get Elliot to cut off someone's arm out of nowhere.

40:58Oti: Yeah. And that takes away from because he's been all the games in 13 Sins,

41:26Oti: he's been made so that the decision is easy for him. Yeah. It's not out of Yes. It's not out of his his his need for the money. Yeah. It's out of, oh, okay. So if you're also part of the game, it's cool. Then I can also, you know, just amputate it. There's no in fact, I can walk out of this, got free without having committed the supposed crime. Yeah. And and that's where we get to see the fucking fallacy in all of it. Yeah. Because now I'm just getting angry. Yeah. He to

41:53Oti: the point where the decision at the end I said I didn't really

41:57Oti: well, I didn't I didn't care too much for Puchit not killing your dad because I felt like, you know what? We get it. He he's he's been fucking deadbeat. Your mother's still waiting for him. Like Yeah. Just just do it Yeah. Then again, you know. It's me being asked to do that. And that was with with Elliot, everything's been handed to him. Yeah. So fucking easy. All he had to do was, like, break a couple of glasses that he didn't buy and he didn't pay for,

42:22KT: like, the wedding hall, but no one was in even in the wedding hall. He was trashing an empty wedding hall. And he did it in a cowardly way, which I'm glad it was acknowledged he did it in a cowardly way.

42:22Oti: Yeah. It's just the levels are so different. The consequences are so different. And that's why we get to see the payout at the end for both movies

42:41Oti: despite the fact that Puchit dies at the end. Yeah. At least he went full a 100. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Elliot, fuck it. He he is dying there like, oh, Shelby, they called you told you to eat a fly. Oh, no. It's starting all over again. Fuck off. Just just get out of town, man. Bloody hell. The writing let it down really, really badly. You had really good source material

43:07Oti: to the point where I thought, oh, without watching the original, this is quite fun. Yeah. And having watched the original, I'm like, what the fuck, mate? Yeah. It was right there. Yeah. No.

43:17KT: I I absolutely agree with that. And I'm not saying it's the level of, like, the Inbetweeners American remake.

43:24Oti: Nothing is like that.

43:26KT: Maybe more like like, oh, but then again, The US Office kind of, like, in popularity conversation, it kinda superseded The UK version. But it was definitely, a good one, but it definitely wasn't worth

43:42Oti: a second look after you know that there's an original and you watch the original. Yeah. And that's why I don't care for watching the American Oldboy because I know I'm not gonna get to see anything close to the quality I got Keep rolling, rolling, rolling, rolling. Facts.

43:58KT: And I love Brolin. He goes in my trophy stand of strong heads. Ron Perlman would also be in my trophy case of strong heads. I'm not even talking like Mount Rushmore shit. Like, they just have strong looking heads. Like, if I throw that ass back, they could take all of it. I don't really wanna I was going to say some angry things about Tong, but friends and lovers and that's where we find out that I'm number one and Oti is absolutely number two. We're gonna finish off in a segment we call For Your Reference,

44:38KT: Oti.

44:39Oti: I'm gonna reference Alice in Borderland.

44:39KT: Oh, Same

44:43KT: very nice. I'm looking forward to the new season coming out.

44:43Oti: Me too.

44:43KT: Very nice. I'm going to reference Tomodachi Game.

44:43Oti: Nice.

44:43KT: Because I'm pretty sure we'll absolutely be covering it when it comes out. Mhmm. If you'd like to see Oti Sentai Pad on Twitter and Instagram, we're @ForYourRefPod. Write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com. We're also on trophy case of strong heads podcast if you'd like to leave a rating and review. And we'll see you guys next week. See you. Bye.