Welcome to Chippendales - In Perpetuity === [00:00:00] KT: It's another week in the foyer reference household. And it is really and truly the first leading Kamal Na Gianni we've had on the foyer reference podcast, ot, [00:00:10] Oti: right? Wild. [00:00:14] KT: We do love this man. Um, history of the world, part two. Definitely go and watch it. [00:00:19] Oti: You love your soups. [00:00:22] KT: We do, we love our soups. We have covered Silicon Valley, but that is more of an ensemble sort of cast in a patron sort of format. We have covered, um, Eternals as well. I actually really, really, really love. Love birds because of Anisa Rae and of a Kamal Na Gianni. So hopefully eventually we will come back to that film on the main podcast. But yeah, this is really the first leading, um, role that we're going to be covering on the podcast. [00:00:51] Oti: and what our role it was. [00:00:53] KT: absolutely. If you would like another roller deck, this goes into our stripper edition. Go and check out Pussy Valley Friends and lovers, and let's get on with the show. Hey, friends and d bi lovers. Welcome back to the Foyer Reference podcast. You got your host, Katie [00:01:23] Oti: and OT [00:01:24] KT: Position the spotlight on the dirty dance with the devil of V I P [00:01:30] clubs, immigrant expectation, and the American. [00:01:34] Oti: Ooh, [00:01:35] KT: Make it rain on the raining men's with welcome to Chippendales this week. Who, who, let's get into general information. This series, there's also a documentary that's available, um, but it was also based on the book Deadly Dance, the Chippendale Murders by Kay Scott McDonald, as well as Patrick Monte de Orka. Uh, in regards to the creator of the show, we have Robert Siegel. It was released in November of 2022 out of Hulu in way of cast, cast, cast. Kamal Na Murray Bartlet. Not in a leading role, but it seems like tangible for your reference Canon. If we've had Murray Bartlet more. [00:02:18] Oti: Mm-hmm. [00:02:19] KT: What a world, um, as well as Anna Lee Ashford, who you may be familiar with, an American Horror Story. Mm-hmm. Um, also on Broadway as well. Who, who, who? Wow, wow, wow. This is also a time to say, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler. Don't take it personally. Don't take it personally. Don't take it [00:02:43] Oti: because that ed up me. [00:02:44] KT: Um, it was literally, anyone could have caught that. But if you are the one to feel the bullet, my love, that's the bullet of truth. [00:02:53] Oti: Mm-hmm. [00:02:54] KT: But we're not covering power. This week. We're talking about Welcome to Chippendales. [00:03:00] Um, well let's get into first impressions. Uh, I would like to know in general, um, if the concept or even the touring marching band of Chippendales made the shores of Kenya, um, and how you felt generally about. [00:03:14] Oti: I really, I heard of Chippendales back in the day. Yeah. But I really did bother knowing more about it. I never heard of Steve Banerjee or even know about his story [00:03:24] KT: Sherman, but I guess we can call him Steve cuz that's how he wanted [00:03:27] Oti: He wanted to be known as Steve. Yeah. So we'll respect that. But yeah, it was wild and, and watching this, mo watching this because we ha we saw an interview of. Kamal and he was explaining everything about the show. Yeah. I was like, wait, what? It, it felt so surreal. Yeah. And going in and watching what transpired was just shocking stuff, you know? It, it was both captivating and disturbing at the same time. You know? Uh, a, a sort of riveting dance of, of power, emotions, self-hate, greed. Wow. [00:04:02] KT: It was a true crime story that was almost hard to believe that was a slow burn that was able to keep a flame right up until the finale. [00:04:13] Oti: phenomenon. Mm-hmm. [00:04:13] KT: But I absolutely agree with you. Um, I think it was more like in an SNL sketch, like a Chris Farley sort of Chippendales that I was more familiar with. Um, and I think just like, uh, uh, you know, as time goes on with the magic mics of it all, they talk about [00:04:30] Chippendales. Um, but I wasn't, yeah, I, I didn't really have any, Sort of periphery. Definitely not to the level of, you know, all of these white, glossy, sexy men and you have an Indian man behind all of it. You know what I mean? Like, it was interesting. The show was very interesting, friends and lovers. If you've read the book, if you've watched a documentary, if you've watched interviews, if you've watched this TV show, um, it's definitely gonna be a wild ride, even if you do know what the details [00:04:59] Oti: are. Mm-hmm. [00:05:00] KT: Um, but yeah, so this show was very interesting. I think it was one of those shows where we might have given it like one or two episodes and then we put it on the back burner and then we came back to it and we just couldn't stop watching it. [00:05:15] Oti: it. Mm-hmm. [00:05:16] KT: It was one of those shows where it didn't immediately grab us. Um, but I would say a, a lot of the reasons why it was hard, like I am, my body immediately rejected. It was because we were dealing with someone that should know better. [00:05:34] Oti: Yeah. [00:05:34] KT: I think is the best way to say it. Right. Um, there's definitely a lot of themes that I wanna speak to, um, as well. But generally I really, really enjoyed, um, this show. Uh, you know, a, a lot of my frustrations can be because of the characters and obviously I'm talking about Steve Banerjee, um, in part. But that, but that doesn't mean it's a terrible show, right? If it's gripping, if it's [00:06:00] interesting, um, I would hope that they get held to account. Um, but it doesn't, it doesn't turn me off of a show if I get really frustrated. Sometimes OT sees that as a, as a potential sort of warning that I wanna stop watching it. But sometimes it makes it Um, while we're going through Don Cheezel's algae rhythm, IM db um, there was a fact on there about Kamal being approached in like 20 17, 20 18 to make this show, but he didn't wanna be seen as like the, the bad villain Indian sort of character. Um, I don't know what changes perspective a few years later. Um, but I think a lot of. Like a lot of the frustrating sort of discussions we had throughout watching this season or watching this show really pinpoints a lot of that sort of conflict, right? [00:06:54] Oti: Mm-hmm. [00:06:55] KT: So let's get into the themes that I have. Um, I wanna talk about true crime in general. I would say, would it be safe to say that in the four year reference household, you are more of the consumer of the true crime genre? [00:07:09] Oti: Not particularly. I, I, I don't even dabble in it anymore per se. [00:07:13] KT: You're practically Octavia Spencer, in truth be told, [00:07:18] Oti: what is [00:07:18] KT: Gabrielle Union, but I mean in way of, um, the, like the serial podcast, Ana and Saed, there was an update to that. Friends and lovers, if you didn't know [00:07:30] about that as well, like I felt a way about that and I feel a way a lot about true crime. Because it's the salaciousness that a lot of us in our banal, mediocre, very boring lives want to clinging onto without realizing that this is about real people. [00:07:47] Oti: True. There's an aspect of, um, understanding that the victims are real and they have families and all that. I think with the distinction of something like Serial, where it's super investigative journalism, I, I can appreciate that level of details in digging because it's not necessarily [00:08:04] KT: are, Sal aiding over that. That's, that's the problem that I have with true crime generally. [00:08:08] Oti: Fair enough. It, it's, it's different from like when we watched or Netflix released Dharma and I was like, yeah, I'm not interested in that. [00:08:16] KT: Yeah, because you know why, like, you know why that was made? As much as Ryan Murphy, you know, has done a lot and trailblazed a lot, um, it kind of felt like a regression in regards to a lot of the progression. I would say that he has opened in way of entertainment, in way of untold stories. That was, that's a story that has been told, continues to be told, and didn't need to be told from that salacious sort of perspective. [00:08:41] Oti: Agreed and shock to me. Apparently a lot of his victims are black. Who knew that? [00:08:46] KT: Young black men. Yeah. [00:08:47] Oti: Oh, wild. [00:08:48] KT: But, you know, ot, it comes back to, and, you know, love Lord and SPEs to Isae. You know, they had, they had like inside shows inside of Insecure, but they also had companion [00:09:00] podcasts and looking for, Latoya was one of them. Right. And even on this podcast I talk about, you know, we, we even covered in a ref Max, we covered missing with Knee Along and Storm Reed. Right. And I very not so cheekily, probably facetious, you know, drop the term missing white woman syndrome, right. Yeah. So, you know what I mean? Like, people like to ex, it's like a fucking roller coaster for these people. It's like a modern gladiatorial ring for these people without realizing that this is real fucking people. So, um, I guess from that point of view, I think we, even halfway through the season, we needed to watch interviews and look up details. We're like, surely, like, surely what's happening in this show is creative license. Hmm. So, um, I do, I, I do feel like there is definitely that sort of aspect, um, friends and lovers in our recent ref. Max, we talked about, um, how we're going to cover the Elizabeth Olson series coming up, love. So that's another example of, you know, covering true crime and that sort of thing. So, um, I'm not, I'm not naive to the fact that it doesn't happen in Hollywood and that sort of thing, but there are definitely different ways that you can do that. Maybe not necessarily true crime, but she said does it very well as well. Yeah. Let's move on to like the first proper theme that we have for, welcome to Chippendales. I have the American Dream. [00:10:26] Oti: Mm-hmm. So the interesting bit is trying to get [00:10:30] his American dream. You know, he's, he's walking in a, in a bodega and he's just chilling and he gets interactions with racist teens who keep on insulting him and making fun of him to the point where he feels that he needs to transform who he is as a person. [00:10:47] KT: Like, I feel like it's a very simple, straightforward answer, but I will never understand, personally, I will never understand the psychology of an immigrant being racist to other immigrants. Like it doesn't make sense to me. [00:11:04] Oti: shit doesn't make sense and it's cause it's hard to see though. And you can see Simon was really struggling with that aspect. Yeah. And to the point where a lot of the decisions that they even made later on the show, I could see where it was born from. Needless to say, me understanding where it came from does not say that. I, I, I agree with some of that shit. Yeah. Or even any of that shit he was doing because it grew into self-hate, which just didn't really vibe with me. [00:11:34] KT: I don't, yeah, like the level of, you know, you know when they talk about like small man syndrome, like the Napoleon sort of complex. Mm-hmm. Like I think this would be like the Banerjee sort of complex cuz he hated so much of who he was. Yeah. Which was like on a real human level that was really fucking sad. But also it kind of gave him like length to be such a fucking tyrant. [00:11:59] Oti: It did, [00:12:00] because then he has, he has to go that extra yard to feel as if he's bigger than everyone else. Yeah. In the room or any other person, you know, he, he put white people on a pedestal and everyone. He felt he was just, they were just pretty much that of the earth. [00:12:15] KT: On a perpetuity pedestal. [00:12:17] Oti: On a perpetuity. Pedestal. But [00:12:23] KT: was the Martha, that was the Da Vinci Code Apple. [00:12:27] Oti: Yeah. To those, you know, to some point I was like, you know what? You go get yours. Yeah, you go do and scam those business partners adding care, game game [00:12:37] KT: don't do that to other, like immigrant slash minorities. You know what I mean? [00:12:41] Oti: Yeah. The minute it's, it's turned into him exploiting or, or, or even being prejudicial against other races, I was like, nah, come on [00:12:50] KT: on. Like this is where we leave you, bro. Like burning down bars and stuff. Like that's, that's fine, but like as soon as you like, aim it at people that don't deserve. Yeah. I don't know. And it kind of rolls into the next theme. Um, like they kind of go hand in hand. The American dream, I've called. The good immigrant. Um, and you know, like navigating western sort of countries. I think both of us could spend years and years and gandolph, beards, you know, talking about, you know, experiences whether benign or whether, you know, all the way offensive. You know, we can talk about [00:13:30] those sort of experiences, but something that really like. As frustrating as it was, it would also made me really curious because like I didn't understand. Cause in many ways he was very smart, right? You know, there are some things that he was naive about and he needed to figure out, but there, but there was definitely a good sense that he had of the world. But what I never understood is, The way that he never understood. It doesn't matter how much you think you are doing or how, um, how much you're aligning yourself to the American dream or middle America. You'll never be them and they'll never see you as them. [00:14:08] Oti: True. And that's something that he didn't understand up until his [00:14:12] KT: I don't get it. Don't get [00:14:15] Oti: Like it's, it's, it's wild that even in the sort of good immigrant aspect, the relationship with the mother was sort of really with his, with his family even wasn't, wasn't that good? [00:14:27] KT: Yeah. And no one, but no one wanted to come to America. It wasn't like his family. [00:14:31] Oti: family was well off. [00:14:33] KT: no, [00:14:33] Oti: living and it was like bra. What are you doing there? Yeah. You know, he had this American dream vision of what he wanted to be. Yeah. The rub shoulders with celebrities. Yeah. And that's his driving motivator. Uhhuh, his family was like, we don't need that shit. Yeah. To the point where when the mom said there's some people who are better off without having that much money. [00:14:54] KT: money. Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. There's a reason why they have all of [00:15:00] these like alleges of monkey paws and um, genie lamps. And look, it's a cautionary tale for people that can't handle fortune. [00:15:08] Oti: That is a dugger to the heart. I would've needed therapy to unwind a lot of that shit. [00:15:14] KT: Uh, I think Banerjee was a bit too far caught, but it was. Like, it's just, again, friends and lovers, you know, we, it's, it's impossible and it would be disingenuous to say that whenever we watch, whenever we experience, whenever we even come on a podcast to review things, it would be very disingenuous to say that we don't bring our own selves when we're consuming something. Right? And me personally, as a child of immigrants, I just couldn't, I just couldn't jive with it. I speak jive, but I just couldn't jive. [00:15:50] Oti: So [00:15:50] KT: I've got a couple of examples. Um, talking about the good immigrant, um, the first one, which was a really juicy one, and you know, sometimes in TV shows they introduce a plot line and for whatever reason they might not explore it. But this really came to rost. Near the end of the season and it, it was when Sherman and Irene, uh, I don't think they even booked a reservation for a restaurant, but Sherman was feeling really like he was, I think there was some sort of like achievement, some sort of triumphant moment and he wanted to celebrate. Yeah. [00:16:23] Oti: Yeah. Cause it's got muddy now. Exactly. He thinks he can walk into, so they pull up. Mm-hmm. [00:16:27] KT: And I think, obviously this wasn't to the level [00:16:30] that we know Chippendales today, or even like at the peak of the season, but he felt like he was ready to celebrate, right? Mm-hmm. Um, and he got to the front desk. They didn't have a reservation, so first of all, you should know better. Um, and the way he got. Was such like, it was, it was one of those like heartbreaking moments. Cause we've all been there, right? [00:16:53] Oti: Mm-hmm. [00:16:54] KT: Even if we have, even if we have booked a reservation, even if they do charge us in advance, we've all been through that sort of scenario before. Right. And what did he do with that? He said don't take it personally. And he does the same discriminatory sort of standards and he applies it to Chippendale. [00:17:13] Oti: Yeah, he had a racial hierarchy in his mind that he wanted to implement. Uh, he saw as many white people in his re in his, in his bar. The better, um, kept the black people away apparent. Wasn't good for customers. Safari to say. We had this black character as a main dancer who was apparently getting all their attention. And apparently this was all fictional. This was, [00:17:35] KT: He was based on a real dancer though. [00:17:37] Oti: Oh, I thought the didn't have a black dancer. [00:17:39] KT: Well, let, let me um, go back to Don Cheeto's, algae rhythm I m db. So his name was Sababu. He wasn't at the time of the start of Chippendales, but he was one of the first black dancers. Um, it pretty much follows the same sort of format of, of the storyline where he wasn't included in the calendar where he [00:18:00] did try and get fired by trying to create his own calendar. The only difference between the portrayal of Otis in the TV show and Saba. Life is when Otis left, he actually punched Banerjee. Yeah. And then he also started his own, um, male show with black dancers called Lady Killers. [00:18:23] Oti: Oh. Discovery id section [00:18:26] KT: Discovery id, I thought I put the lock on. Uh, in the late hours. [00:18:32] Oti: Oti. Oh no go. Going through parental control. [00:18:37] KT: Um, but you bring up a really good point because that's another example I had in the good immigrant sort of theme. And this was talking about the calendar. Obviously we can talk about, you know, the, the scenes leading up to, and everything, talking about the calendar. But what I wanna talk about specifically is a line of dialogue that Banerjee says to Otis and he's trying to. Otis be understanding in this situation, I think this was, it wasn't the first time that they were selling the calendars, but Banerjee essentially says to Otis, look like, I, I, I totally understand, but he says it very matter of fact like he's trying to make Otis understand. But he says it very matter of fact, you know, these husbands aren't going to wanna see a black man on their wall that their wife is looking at. [00:19:23] Oti: Yeah, he does. And this is, this is where I started having issues, bigger [00:19:30] issues [00:19:30] KT: Just, just now? [00:19:31] Oti: now? No, cause it, it, it was so his character was sort of unraveling Yeah. Really, really quickly. It was hard connecting with him from that point on. Oh yeah. Despite the fact that I understood the good immigrant aspect of. I understood his, his sort of origin story. [00:19:53] KT: The races come up. Yeah. [00:19:55] Oti: You know it, it's hard to disassociate all those things. [00:19:58] KT: I think there was even a scene, oh, I don't know. I don't know if I'll ever go back and watch this show, but there was a scene in the office where Otis is talking to Banerjee and he's asking, Hey, can I shadow you? And Banerjee says something really gross, something to the effect of, you don't need to be worrying, like you won't be in business anyway. Like there was something that he was saying about that, that was a major ick for us. And we're like, yeah, fuck, we're down. We're not down with Banerjee. [00:20:28] Oti: Yeah. And, and, and it took Irene's intervention to even get orders that, you know, like sort of side gig. Mm-hmm. [00:20:36] KT: Because it goes against all laws of nature. Cause that's not even self-preservation at that point. You are just being fucking racist. We don't need to spend a lot of time on this, but I do have a theme in general about the concept of male strip clubs. I guess we can talk about it in regards to like television or even just entertainment. Um, [00:21:00] or even just in general. [00:21:01] Oti: Mm-hmm. [00:21:02] KT: Uh, you know, friends and lovers. Um, I don't think I will ever be interested enough to do a full review on Good luck to you Theo Grande. Um, but I had some fundamental qualms, quarrels, and quandaries with that film because it really much distills. It can be any person, but I would usually say women that have taken a caregiver role, whether it's, you know, through family, through having children, through et cetera, et cetera, that make a choice to, um, you know, have particular sort of priorities repress their sexuality and don't take accountability for it. Right? So the, the concept of it, um, you know, you, you even see it, you even see it in the show. A lot of the way that the audience or the patrons or the customers would treat these strippers, specifically Otis, if you notice the way they literally manhandled him, it wasn't to the level of the white strippers, right? And they bought into that sort of fantasy, even distending, the fact that he is a human and you should treat him with. [00:22:10] Oti: Mm-hmm. [00:22:10] KT: Right. So I don't know, like it kind of, it kind of got on my nerves, but I don't necessarily think it's to do with the show. I think it's just that sort of context that I come with. [00:22:21] Oti: He did try to push the limit of what's accepted. It was pretty much everything goes [00:22:26] KT: but why are you trying to reach down and grab what's in Otis's pants and you don't [00:22:30] even know where your CL is fuck off? [00:22:31] Oti: Oh, Otis needs to show them, [00:22:33] KT: oh my, Ot, Banerjee, friends and office. Do you have a direct line to India or what? [00:22:44] Oti: Wow. Cause you could tell they had. They were a bit trepidatious at fast. Yeah. Like, Hey, this is a bit weird. And they raised the issue with Banerjee and he was like, nah, the more they do that, the more they'll tip, the more they'll come, the more they'll tell their friends. They wanted to create that sort of fantastical element where everything goes. Yeah. And they did. [00:23:04] KT: We haven't really had a chance to talk about Nick de Noia, um, as well as Denise. Apparently Denise is like a culmination of people. She doesn't really exist, um, in this sort of context. But we haven't talked about Nick de Noia at all. And obviously we love Murray Butler. Um, go and check out our last of us episode that we did recently. Um, how important is choreography to the success of Chippendales? [00:23:31] Oti: Everything. Right? Yeah. It, it was there, there's one thing going in and just saying manics. [00:23:38] KT: Sure. [00:23:40] Oti: But seeing them in a groove or in a choreographic sort of way, then it changes things. [00:23:46] KT: Are you working on your own Mandingo scientist choreography? [00:23:49] Oti: I am. [00:23:50] KT: Oh, yes. [00:23:52] Oti: No, but he, he pretty much took Chippendales to the next level. Mm-hmm. He wanted to make it. Something more than just, [00:24:00] yeah. Yeah. A and that's where Steve started getting, again, he started getting a bit weird because it's like, no, Chippendale is just supposed to be men, derating and all that. [00:24:10] KT: No, I think he just wanted low effort. Just women are gonna turn up anyway, [00:24:14] Oti: But Nick had different visions. Yeah. He had, he had something way grander than that. Yeah. It's just sad that it, it, it all ended the way he did because I thought he had such a really savvy idea and even taking it globally. [00:24:26] KT: Yeah, but I think it was also because it wasn't Banerjee's idea, And it was getting jealous of all of the TV spots. And I must say, um, you know, as much as we stay injected into the matrix of the show, I just saw Danes from Silicon Valley when he was on tv. And he was struggling and sweating through the attack. [00:24:50] Oti: uh, oh man. His glasses were getting Stevie. [00:24:55] KT: Oh. But it was like, it was that Carman from South Park, like there were delicious tears of sadness. I loved, well, it was like sweat, but it was delicious and I loved it and I'm like, you fucking idiot. You deserve this. [00:25:08] Oti: Yeah. Cause at the end of the day, people started associating, uh, Nick to Chippendales. [00:25:13] KT: Yeah. Mr. [00:25:14] Oti: Chippendales, you know, and, and, and that really irritated Par, [00:25:17] KT: but you're not the one that they fantasize about according to the calendars that he makes. He's not the one the housewives are dreaming about. [00:25:24] Oti: Yeah, man, I would've just been happy being in the background and let the money roll. I didn't care who the bloody face [00:25:30] is. [00:25:30] KT: Oh, okay. So you're only Heisenberg when it comes to the drug game? [00:25:33] Oti: Yes. [00:25:36] KT: So your dick game stays in the back seat. [00:25:39] Oti: It can stay in the back [00:25:40] KT: seat. Okay. Oh, but that was so, that was so interesting and we might as well, um, move into the, actually before we go to the next. Theme. This is another trivia fact that I saw that I don't think we ever came across when we were doing any reading. It's definitely not in the show, but Steve and Irene Banerjee had a son. Yeah. Um, his name was Christian. He wasn't in the series, and he currently works as a male stripper. [00:26:06] Oti: wonderful circle. [00:26:07] KT: Yeah. Um, under the stripper name Christian Bain. And his, uh, his place is called the Chippendales. I don't know. I, I did a Google search. I don't see Banerjee in there, but, you know, um, Let's move on to the last theme. How far will you go? And this kind of, it culminates the American dream, it culminates the good immigrant, um, and it talks about how far was Banerjee willing to go. I don't know if we still need to say alleged, but Alleged. Alleged legend. There you go. Um, and I've, I've written down a couple of instances where we see in the show that it felt like it was too far, but it kept. Hmm. I think the first sort of instances we see of how, not seriously, but how [00:27:00] much Banerjee was willing, willing to risk was when he, um, got ready to burn down that club. [00:27:07] Oti: clock. Yeah. Cause he thought he'd monopolized, um, male dancing in clubs bra. Yes. What did he think? If you have an idea that makes mad people will do it. Exactly. [00:27:22] KT: It was, but I think even at that point, he, he felt a bit delusional, you know? Mm-hmm. Like how do you own what already exists? [00:27:32] Oti: Yeah, it's the concept, right? It's the, it's the, it's the concept of Chippendales that he thought was so unique that it's, it shouldn't be replicated anywhere else. Yeah. Well, in reality it is just men dancing in a club. [00:27:46] KT: but a Big Mac is still a burger at the end of the day, [00:27:48] Oti: Oh, so disappointing. Text me back. [00:27:52] KT: Oh, okay. I didn't know that's where we were going, but there you go. Um, and then there, there's definitely like sort of criminal activity, um, that goes on in the show. And one of the, I guess like pivotal sort of moments, Hey, is Murray Butler becoming Sean Bean? [00:28:12] Oti: He is. [00:28:12] KT: Well in the last two we've seen. Um, but anyway, um, what did you think about the hit on Nick de Noia? It was very sad for Bradford to find him as well. [00:28:22] Oti: Yeah, it was. Um, but he saw it coming, especially after the perpetuity thing. And this is why [00:28:30] Pride comes for a fall may. If you [00:28:31] KT: you called it though, [00:28:32] Oti: If you don't know. You could see. He didn't know what perpetuity meant, but [00:28:36] KT: but I didn't know that's how the scene was going happen. [00:28:40] Oti: You could see, you could see in his eyes, he didn't know what it meant, and he could, you know, he just wa he was like, I can't, I can't, I can't admit, I don't know what it meant. And Nick asked him flat out, do you know what he meant? [00:28:53] KT: But obviously that might be a machismo ego thing. He's not gonna be like, oh yeah, sorry, I lied. I don't know. [00:29:00] Oti: Get your macho Randy man, savage. Your egos out. [00:29:05] KT: Why does Randy Savage come to mind when you think of that? [00:29:08] Oti: Because his machos pretended to be Ma too. Okay, thanks. Back when WWF was a thing. [00:29:16] KT: Yeah. Now you've got Super Mario Vince McMahon out in the streets. [00:29:22] Oti: That was one of the funniest scenes in the show. Hands down, [00:29:25] KT: It was funny, but it was also like there's no coming back from there, [00:29:29] Oti: especially after I got Ray and Ray kissing his ring or some shit. Love it. Disgusting. But you could see that. It was only ever going to end one way. [00:29:40] KT: Oh, absolutely. [00:29:41] Oti: Even I didn't know what was gonna happen. I didn't know the full story, but after seeing that scene, I was like, yeah, this guy's gonna be killed because there's no other way. [00:29:49] KT: Yeah. And this, this was obviously based on real events, but even if we were watching this as a TV show, we would be like, there's no way Nick Denoia makes it out alive. [00:29:58] Oti: Mm-hmm. [00:29:58] KT: You know what I mean? Like, [00:30:00] cause at that point the interviews, the new club in New York, like there was too much being taken away. Not even financially, cuz they're obviously giving a kickback, but like just the fact. He didn't make it and he's not the face it was already at its last straws. [00:30:17] Oti: He started making a lot of amateur mistakes. Yeah. With the calendar printing and spending all that money. [00:30:23] KT: Oh my God, [00:30:24] Oti: for him to realize he hadn't checked. Oh my God. He hadn't verified that he looked properly. [00:30:29] KT: because he didn't wanna admit it. [00:30:30] Oti: Yeah. And all months had 31 days or some shit. [00:30:34] KT: If anything. If anything, this is the calendar poster boy of going to therapy because he even bought a printing press because he couldn't resolve his childhood issues and his daddy issues. [00:30:47] Oti: Yeah, it is true. Some people just don't need to have that level of money, [00:30:52] KT: but like, no one knows you, like your parents and his mom, like you said, it stung and it hurt. But she wasn't wrong. [00:31:01] Oti: True. Cause I, when, when she said that, I was like, wait, what? That, that sounded really, really harsh. Yeah. And I was like, who deserves to hear something like that? [00:31:10] KT: like him. [00:31:11] Oti: true. [00:31:14] KT: Oh, that perpetuity. Oh man. That gives me a good cackle. Like just thinking about the perpetuity thing. Oh, it's funny. Um, and also he put a hit out on the dancers and this was like years after. [00:31:28] Oti: Yeah. His ring kissing friend [00:31:30] is the one that sold him out. Anyway, [00:31:31] KT: What's up with all of this kissing portrayal? Kissing Jesus on the cheek. Kissing banerjee on the ring. [00:31:37] Oti: has to do something with saliva. Saliva makes you betray anyone, [00:31:41] KT: man. Where were you thick in 2020. O feel like there are some abandoned web threads. [00:31:51] Oti: Now you know all those pango Lindsay. [00:31:58] KT: Oh man. But this show, cause we're obviously not gonna get a second season. Yeah, [00:32:02] Oti: No, no, no. It was one off. It's a miniseries. It, [00:32:05] KT: but that's what I'm saying. There's [00:32:06] Oti: there's nothing to come back to. [00:32:07] KT: But it was a moment. [00:32:09] Oti: It was a moment. It was, um, the thing that they, that really disturbed me, sort of at the end is Irene's involvement in all this. [00:32:19] KT: Yeah. Is this where we say a legend again? [00:32:22] Oti: Yeah. This is why we say a legend. Apparently she knew everything, but she chose to stay quiet. Yeah. And back out. Yeah. That doesn't absolve you from anything. Yeah. You still let him go around pant out there? [00:32:36] KT: Uh, I would say everyone, especially men, are accountable for their own actions. But I also accept what you're saying. [00:32:43] Oti: I agree with you, but not when you are married to that man. [00:32:46] KT: well, I guess that's why we're not married. My love. [00:32:48] Oti: It's one thing because it wasn't even a ride or die thing, it was just cause she wasn't a ride or die. She just backed out and said, yeah, it's not my problem anymore. Well, [00:32:58] KT: I guess that would talk to the [00:33:00] portrayal of the show because in the show, Irene was very morally righteous. [00:33:04] Oti: To a point [00:33:06] KT: No. Even like, okay. It did get to a point where she's like, if you're gonna do it, do it fucking right. But before that, before that she was, she [00:33:15] Oti: was rush just before she [00:33:16] KT: Yeah, but she was trying to appeal to him about the v i P club. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I see what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:33:23] Oti: You threw a tantrum. Don't tell me, don't tell me this. P PE cards. Okay, now what you did, we need to do something about this. Let's hide this shit. Like, nah, come on now. Come on. [00:33:35] KT: I'm just waiting for you to talk about snowfall. You, you love a, a strong matriarch, don't you, ot? [00:33:42] Oti: I sure do. [00:33:43] KT: Just to tear them down. [00:33:44] Oti: Mm-hmm. [00:33:47] KT: That's interesting. Um, I think I was expounding a lot of my feelings onto Banerjee, so I wasn't necessarily focusing on Ra Irene, but there were definitely moments where it's like, like are you just gonna break bad halfway through the show? Or were you there from the start? You know, that sort of thing. [00:34:06] Oti: Yeah. And, and it wasn't even clear the end, what happened to Irene outside of you doing your own research? It, it felt, oh, she left with a kid somehow in between Banerjee going to Germany and whatever. Yeah. And then that was it. Nothing else? [00:34:22] KT: Yeah, absolutely agree. Oh, did you give enough time for Otis? Was there anything else you wanted to say about Otis? [00:34:28] Oti: Uh, I'm a fan of Lady [00:34:30] Killers now. [00:34:30] KT: right. Um, I really enjoyed Quinton Player. I hope we see him just in general in our general, sort of watching. Like he was really great in this show. I think he brings a lot of, um, presence on screen. So, yeah, I'll be really excited to see him in general, and I think it was just a very solid show overall. Woohoo. Thank you friends and lovers for joining us another week in the Foyer reference household. We're gonna finish off in a segment we call Foy Reference ot, [00:35:01] Oti: If you want some kumal goodness in your life, I'd reference Love Barge with sse. [00:35:06] KT: Ooh. Um, I'm sticking more to like the aesthetic. Um, and I guess maybe the themes that get explored, I'm going to reference. I'm also very excited for the next season of Mixx. [00:35:19] Oti: Nice. Good job stars. [00:35:21] KT: If you'd like tickets to the Welcome to the Dales, uh, on Twitter and Instagram, we alpha your [00:35:26] Oti: right? Us an email@helloforpodcast.com. [00:35:29] KT: We're also on True Crime sometimes podcast, if you'd like to leave a rating and review and we'll see you guys next. [00:35:35] Oti: See y'all. [00:35:36] KT: Bye.