Beef_Oti === [00:00:00] [00:00:00] KT: Sorry, I thought this was another week in our the Shield episode. It's another week in the foyer reference household, and it is another week of unchecked Ram Paige, oti, are you ready to do some yelling? [00:00:18] Oti: I always am. [00:00:20] KT: Any, any topics you want to have a fight with? [00:00:23] Oti: Only everything. [00:00:24] KT: Wow. Okay. Phoebe Robinson's, everything's. [00:00:31] Oti: That's the energy I bring. [00:00:34] KT: Well, that's a great way to start the palette. Let's get on with the show. Hey friends and ah lovers. Welcome back to the Foyer Reference podcast. You got your host, Katie [00:00:58] Oti: ah and oti, [00:01:00] KT: Reverse out of personal responsibility and shift in to conditional. check your blood pressure. Seriously. Check your blood pressure with beef this week. [00:01:15] Oti: nice [00:01:16] KT: Ooh, representation isn't necessarily a theme, but we're absolutely going to cover it today. Friends and lovers. Uh, just in [00:01:30] regards to general stats and information. Usually when we talk about the importance of being, especially behind the screen, I'm going to do a quick sound off, um, in. To the crew. So creators, um, Steven, sorry, I'm talking like they're out of best friends. Steven Yan, um, and Ali Wong talk about saying son, but Lee sang gin. Um, in regards to directing, we have Lee sang gin as well as Khari, as well as Jake Shira. In regards to writing credits, we have Lisa Gin again, Jean Kean Frazier, Marie Han, Kevin Rosen. Joanna Carlo, Nico Gutierrez Covner, Alice J Carrie Kemmer, as well as Alex Russell in way of cast, cast, cast. I think if we're gonna eliminate and we can only have one filmography, Stephen Y. Young, young ma in the house. [00:02:24] Oti: Wow. [00:02:26] KT: in the house. [00:02:28] Oti: I [00:02:28] KT: even dabble in walking in the dead in the house. [00:02:32] Oti: You didn't even like banging bro. [00:02:33] KT: Nope. In the house. Segue, oh, I've got a lot of time for Stephen Young Twilight Zone in the house. [00:02:43] Oti: Mm-hmm. [00:02:43] KT: got a lot of time for this man. Andy sings alt rock. In a Jesus sort of way. [00:02:53] Oti: Yeah. [00:02:54] KT: The Jesus, that's how my Jesus. [00:02:58] Oti: Eden, no. Creed was, um, Jesus was part [00:03:00] of Creed. [00:03:04] KT: Uh, continuing on, we will get to the episode. Friends and lovers just ride this Splu she Ulta train. We are going on right now, Stephen Yan, Ali Wong, Joseph Lee, young man Zino, who I was very exci. I'm, I'm very excited to see future works of young men. And also the, I would say Umbrella Academy, but he was giving me Raven Ben vibes, Justin h Min. [00:03:30] Oti: Yeah. [00:03:36] KT: Um, this, if we talk about, um, shows that got a lot of like viral sort of attention and obviously that doesn't equate to marketing even, even though I'm sure there are some learned friends and lovers will tell us there's like vertical integration of advertising in that sort of thing. But, um, let's get into first impressions. There's definitely. Themes I wanna dabble into, and it kind of becomes a cluster racking fuck of deal with your shit and pay for therapy. I promise you. It's cheaper. [00:04:07] Oti: Beef serves up a delicious mix of comedy and drama. The escalating rivalry captivates as they delve into each other's lives. Hilarious, poignant, and utterly binge-worthy. It was amazing. I had so, so much fun with it. It, it was, it started out slowly for me. I wasn't sure, but as soon as we still continue delving into, [00:04:30] uh, Danny and Amy's lives, I was hooked. [00:04:33] KT: Okay. Alright. Um, it's all, I always love to hear when we get to the end, um, of a watching experience, what your thoughts are going to be. Um, and you know, there's definitely different sides. Don't worry. Friends and lovers. I do have a theme called, Choose your trauma fighter. But for now, um, I would say all in all, if I get off my Stephen Young, and also I wanna point out that I do love Ali Wong because I'm going to say some real things about Amy Lao's character. Um, but if I get off the love train, um, I would say that beef was a very interesting. Way of mixing genre as well as meeting the different sort of levels of representation. We all deserve multifaceted representation, and this includes characters that are selfish, self-loathing, and impressively lacking in self-awareness. [00:05:34] Oti: I agree with that [00:05:35] KT: You can do the work or you can ade the work out of here. [00:05:38] Oti: Um, I think everyone was flawed, as we all are. Mm-hmm. And it was refreshing to see where a world where characters are allowed to be in that shitiness. Yeah. And live with the consequences as well. Uhhuh. And I think so many times we tend to find these, uh, nicely gift dropped endings. [00:06:00] Yeah. Where I think this handled it quite nice. [00:06:04] KT: Hmm. [00:06:04] Oti: I think up until the last minute [00:06:07] KT: it handled it well. Except for the [00:06:11] Oti: no, but seriously, every we got Amy and Danny's character faced the most extreme consequences of their actions. Regardless of whether or not you agree with the last minute. Everything. Up until that point, [00:06:24] KT: didn't agree even before the end, but yes. I think this is a good time to say, spoiler. Spoiler, spoiler. Grade a ass. Grade a ass. Grade a ass. It's interesting. It's interesting whether it's just usual watching experiences or whether it's the podcast or whether it's, you know, being a bit more in tune or being able to pick up on things. Um, you know, there is definitely something fresh about beef. However, I would say the general. Sort of, um, narrative of the need to decompress, the need to channel rage in which, whichever direction, and it's usually not pointed at yourself, it's usually pointed out at a random person in a parking lot. Right. Um, I would say that that sort of narrative or that sort of, um, carved out in Hollywood already exists. I think the difference that we have here is it's being explored through Asian charact. Right. Um, you know, even in interviews, especially Sunny [00:07:30] was talking about, you know, it, it could even be anyone. They just happen to be Asian. But I think there's also an importance to be laid there, um, on the fact that we can have that multifaceted sort of representation. Right. Um, you know, usually when there is the conversation, it's always pinning Asian people as that model sort of minority, right. [00:07:52] Oti: Mm-hmm. [00:07:53] KT: The ones that you know aren't going to cause a ruckus. The ones that aren't necessarily, you know, going to be the ones that get targeted, um, in ways that perhaps black and brown or, you know, other people would be as well. Not to say that the struggles aren't there, but just to say that the struggles are different, right. [00:08:13] Oti: Yeah. [00:08:13] KT: As the PI in the aa. Um, I definitely understand the nuance that we're traversing here. Um, and I guess even if we, even if we think to recent cinema, or even if we go back a couple of decades, the betrayal of, well, a lot of, um, You know, a lot of minorities, it, it wasn't necessarily at the hands of our own right. And the same could be said for Asian characters or even Asian storytelling in a Western Hollywood sort of context. So it's really cool that we've gotten to a point where we can have that richness, that depth, and I think even the imperfections as. [00:08:57] Oti: well. Yeah. And, and we always say, one [00:09:00] can tell a story better than your own. Mm-hmm. So it definitely tick a box and it, it can tell the, the, the subtleness and, and the carefulness they take, [00:09:08] KT: takes. [00:09:08] Oti: Yeah. Yes. The characters can be shitty too, but there's a care for the characters as. you know. [00:09:14] KT: Interesting. I might disagree with you [00:09:17] Oti: Oh, really? [00:09:18] KT: Yeah, you know me, [00:09:19] Oti: Oh, disagree away. [00:09:21] KT: I want to get in the ring. Um, but you know, even sort of like little sort of, um, you know, sort of throwaway comments that perhaps those, those that aren't aware or aren't paying attention, like there was even a comment, um, where. Amy was trying to g up George saying that Danny was like, oh he, yeah, he made a comment about you being Japanese. Like, you know what I mean? Like there was definitely some interesting sort of dialogue even, um, that would hit differently. Um, I imagined for the Asian community as well, so I really enjoyed that this show was breaking that sort of model minority Asian stereotype in that they can also be shitty as well. Because there's a lot of shitiness. I'm talking about Amy specifically, but there's a lot of [00:10:10] Oti: Come on now. [00:10:12] KT: I'll, I'll come off. That's what she does. [00:10:14] Oti: Do Hardy's fair shell shitiness as [00:10:17] KT: I will come on and I will get off just like she did with the gun pow power o t straight shooter in the foyer reference household. Um, the next sort of, uh, [00:10:30] theme that I kind of wanted to explore. Is harnessing the man of rage. And I think this is more about speaking about our own personal experiences or perhaps how we channel and how we funnel rage, because I think a lot. A lot of the character sort of motivations. Yes, I'm talking about Amy, but a lot of the character motivations or maybe I'm even talking about Danny cuz as much as I will, and you will hear me defend Danny's character, I, I don't necessarily advocate for a daddy daycare situation in the bathroom. [00:11:07] Oti: Right. [00:11:08] KT: Um, but I kind of wanna talk about that because this show as, as serious and as straight. If you're, pardon in the, pardon. As the characters play it, like Danny and Amy specifically, there are some high jinks. Wacky races, ridiculous sort of moments like tonally, there was some sort of ridiculousness that was accepted and that was going on inside a beef. And I kind of wanna talk about how far did your rage stretch in the believability, in the, I guess the understanding of the motivations of the characters. [00:11:43] Oti: the captain, Like you said, it did start off a bit wacky races, but it came to unbelievable heights at the end, um, quite honestly. But once you are in that, I think once they explained sort of the backstory and the trauma both Danny and Amy faced, I could[00:12:00] [00:12:00] KT: oh boo. [00:12:01] Oti: I could stretch my imagination a bit, you know, and give a bit of Lee. [00:12:06] KT: We get it. You got the biggest imagination in the room. Stop whipping [00:12:09] Oti: be our routine. [00:12:10] KT: We get it. It's interesting because you know, there are many hundreds of episodes, many thousands of minutes worth of me going on a fucking rampage. Over stupid fucking films, right? So it's not to say that I am a stranger to experiencing rage. Um, however, I was a bit dubious at a lot of. I guess sort of the character, um, motivations in this show. And I think this, and, and I guess if I were to be gracious on my part specifically, I do find it hard to navigate. Um, you know, sort of watching experiences that aren't wholly grounded or aren't wholly, you know, um, in a game of throne sort of world or in a complete, a completely isolated sort of fantasy world because beef kind of exists in the, i, I guess, at the intersection of reality. Um, and I guess glorified, fantastical reality. [00:13:23] Oti: Hmm. [00:13:24] KT: It's kind of like swarm as well. You know, swarm is, swarm is definitely adjacent to [00:13:30] the Atlanta verse. Um, internally, whether Atlanta works for you, whether swarm works for you, it definitely gave me the same sort of feeling, which I, I guess also coincidentally is another example of storytelling that is being told and expanding the experience and the representation of Black story. When you think of, you know, balls to the wall, um, sort of characters, Charli theran or even like American Psycho, you know, there are these sorts of roles that, you know, become part of the pop culture sort of ethos. And now we get to see the glory and the talent of Dominic Fishback, you know, in Swarm. And I guess you can also see that in beef as well. But, um, I, I guess that's something that I would give some grace to say that, um, Definitely cause we were in real life, but we weren't in real life in the sense that the consequences weren't necessarily being applied. Um, so I did kind of find it hard to connect to those characters. Um, the next theme that I have is go to therapy for fuck's sake. And the reason why I have this. Theme is pretty much exactly what we're saying now. Um, and I kind of wanna focus, obviously we're talking about Danny and Amy specifically, but I wanna focus on this because this is what really, um, This is where I have my qualms, quarrels, and quandaries with [00:15:00] this particular, um, TV series. So if we are unplugging from the matrix and we're seeing this show for what it is, a way to expand, um, and take ownership of Asian representation and storytelling, I absolutely love that and wish all of the grace. However, once we zoom into the show, Amy, feel free to disagree with me, ot, but I argue that Amy was not being held to account. You know, I even talked about Game of Thrones a couple of minutes ago. I was trying to think of a character that went so far unchecked as Amy did, as she's kind of [00:15:44] Oti: you compare her to Dan [00:15:46] KT: Nearest? She's a baby. Dans, she's absolutely a baby, Dan. [00:15:51] Oti: Wow. [00:15:52] KT: She's flicking O bean outside of the castle window. That's a House of Dragons reference friends. Love is going check out our episode because she constantly, she constantly trampled on everyone and everything in her proximity, which is absolutely fine. And you know what? I'm also gonna throw in, good luck to you Theo Grande. [00:16:17] Oti: Wow. [00:16:18] KT: Amy's character only works because she's a. [00:16:22] Oti: Okay. [00:16:23] KT: We talk about different dynamics and having different ways of representing, but you tell me, if [00:16:30] Amy were to be George and George was the one with all of his road rage and then fucking the, I guess, um, the other person's sister, would that be okay? Fuck off. [00:16:42] Oti: George Cheated as well. [00:16:44] KT: Emotionally. [00:16:46] Oti: Some say that's the worst kind of cheating, [00:16:49] KT: It was a dark tie, but you No, but you see what I'm saying? We're saying give women the same, you know, echelon of roles, but she only has this character because she is a woman. A lot of, there's a lot of graces that are given to Amy that are not given to Danny in this show. And I'm talking about a writing point of view if we're talking about performances. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. I do remind you, I do love Ali Wong, but her character in particular, she like, if you're going to talk your mad shit, fine, but don't hide behind the veil of your gender and say that it's all goods cuz it's not. [00:17:26] Oti: Okay. I, I'm gonna slightly disagree there because [00:17:30] KT: Feminist OT in the [00:17:31] Oti: I don't think it has to do with, with Amy being a woman, it has to do with Amy being rich. There's a classic aspect of their [00:17:41] KT: but she not rich. she's vicarious rich, [00:17:48] Oti: She is wealthy and Danny is not. And I think the classiest aspect of it is what makes Amy feel like she can walk over or get away with as many things as possible. [00:17:59] KT: She's a [00:18:00] fucking Terrence Howard character. Tell me otherwise. [00:18:04] Oti: Yeah, and Terrence Howard has money as well, so, [00:18:08] KT: okay. Ot, Lucius Lion. I'm just saying if he had a male character that instigated, I guess, well, let's, let's agree now, or let's not agree. Let's discuss now or debate. I feel like Amy started the altercation in the parking. Cool. Okay, so if we had a male character that started off the altercation in the parking lot, [00:18:34] Oti: Actually, lemme walk that [00:18:35] KT: Chase after. No, it's too late now. Editing exists. AI exists. Chat, G B T exists, but this will exist in its whole entirety. Right? Create an Finsta ins. Message knowingly with the younger sibling. And I guess because we're swapping genders here, uh, the, the younger sibling, the, the younger sister of Danny, I don't know how far we wanna swap genders, but essentially if we have Amy's character as a man, going to the, to the, to the level of cyber stalking and cyber bullying, cyber catfishing, cyber kissing, cyber F. [00:19:22] Oti: stops being cyber catfishing or cyber anything. Paul is clearly taken by Amy. [00:19:28] KT: Oh well, nothing was of [00:19:30] material value to me but you, whatever. You know what I'm saying? Right. This is, this is like the reason why Magic Mike has a demographic. This is the reason why E Pray love has a demographic. This is the reason why I love Emma Thompson, but this is the reason why people love good luck to you, Theo Grande. Without realizing, as older women, we do have a responsibility and we do have the stewardship of our own sexuality via Beam. Flicking motherfucker. Do you speak? Or do you lick it? [00:20:10] Oti: I couldn't disagree more, man. I feel, I feel like you are, you're taking the frustration around the chicken toll between Amy and. Only on Amy because you feel like there's, we [00:20:22] KT: we can leave it at this point because we definitely don't agree, but I would make it very clear that this doesn't happen the other way. or at least it doesn't happen. And we have the same sympathy that a lot of people would have for Amy's character. [00:20:38] Oti: Yeah. And just my final word on this, Amy, all Amy does at the start of the confrontation is ho. Danny Text is way above [00:20:48] KT: this feels like the episode in Avatar, the last air Bender of the Tales of BA Sing. [00:20:54] Oti: That's [00:20:55] KT: what this feels like. Cause you were watching a different show to me, [00:21:00] sir. Like Amy Lao was on her promising young woman tip. That's what she, that's what she was doing in this. Um, but if we go back to the theme of go to therapy, um, It was interesting cause I, you could also, you know, point out that Amy did go to therapy and she also went to therapy with George. But it's not gonna work if you're not gonna do it fucking properly. Right. So this is, this is where I get frustrated because at the end of the day, even though there is richness provided through ot, feminists through gender, through class, through race, there's still human stories at the end of the day. And these aren't necessarily stories that I gravitate to because of the lack of accountability of characters. And you know, this is kind of what I want to come to in regards to the inconsistent sort of character growth as well. I feel like the growth of Amy and Danny, the trajectory of both of them were not align. At all. Not to say that in a narrative you need to have the opposing parties, you know, um, you know, come to some moment of enlightenment together or at the same sort of pace. However, there were many, many, many instances where Danny was being held to account. Whether through Amy or people around him and Amy wasn't given the same sort of [00:22:30] thing. So what I wanna come to is the particular scene where Amy, I think it might have been after she admitted that she had an affair, cause that that made, um, George seem like a coco million affair. That was not a fully rated. [00:22:48] Oti: Mm-hmm. [00:22:49] KT: I, I'm pretty sure it was after that moment, but she was talking to the therapist and she was saying, you know, all of these sort of circumstances, she even talks, she even puts George on a pedestal. Um, and that sort of thing. And I would argue it was a very unearned sort of moment. But we get to a moment where Amy, you know, through way of the therapist is able to understand. All of, or perhaps any of the love that was drip fed to her was given conditionally, [00:23:24] Oti: concern. Mm-hmm. [00:23:26] KT: And that became an Oprah Aha moment. You know, it became the moment that the heavens opened and Amy finally understood, stood, bruh. I hazard to say a lot of us friends and lovers have experienced conditional love from our. Does that mean we're all gonna be out in these streets shaking it for all it's worth? [00:23:51] Oti: I don't know. I think, okay, so I understand that. And a green. But how many people have seen their parents [00:24:00] cheat and have to hold that secret [00:24:02] KT: Ooh, [00:24:02] Oti: childhood? I'm just saying it can mess up. It can mess someone up. [00:24:08] KT: Where's your, where's your name in these credits? He hurt. [00:24:18] Oti: mess someone up. Oh. Amy had to hold that secret. She felt like she couldn't tell the mother. [00:24:24] KT: Yeah. [00:24:25] Oti: Despite the mother knowing what had transpired, she kept on, you know, being together because she saw life wasn't just narrowed down to that. Then whatever. Cool. That's her decision to make. [00:24:38] KT: But see, see, so this is what I'm saying. If it was written in a way that it was part of her character, that's something I could jive with. But the way that they had written it into the show, it, it was a justification. It was an explanation. It was a filling of the gaps as to why she is the way she is and why she had the affair. That's the qualms, quarrels, and quandaries that I had. because you, you and I know of all people that life is fucking messy. And even at our best, it's going to remain messy in ways that we can't even reconcile at this particular moment. Right. To get through it, you gotta go through it, right? [00:25:25] Oti: Yeah. And she just needed to realize that herself. And I think that's where [00:25:30] her journey with the therapist came. But even, even when it comes to cheating, George plays such a pivotal role into nudging Amy into, you know, into Chagres. Because he keeps on sending, he sent us a screenshot with Mia and, and then he was like, uhoh. I was just saving the quote. Like [00:25:53] KT: the caption. [00:25:53] Oti: Yeah, I was just saving the caption at some point. You know that guy is in the fucking, the fucking, or he thinks you are gullible as fuck, [00:26:02] KT: You know, ot, if I could request this of you and I feel like I speak on behalf of our friends and lovers, if you could compile a companion cheating playlist so they can listen after this episode, I think they'll really appreciate it. I'm thinking some Keisha Coles. I'm thinking some Twitter little de. [00:26:23] Oti: Oh, you gotta have someone tell in there [00:26:26] KT: outside of the restaurant, [00:26:28] Oti: Uhhuh. No, but I think George really had a big part to play in that as [00:26:35] KT: So what, okay, cool. Great. But what part does Amy play? [00:26:42] Oti: She, she is not excused from her behavior. it. She is responsible for everything that's [00:26:49] KT: Sounding not like it, [00:26:50] Oti: but at the end of it, she loses her, her, she loses George June. [00:26:56] KT: she was already despondent from George. Let's be. [00:26:59] Oti: [00:27:00] And June, then [00:27:00] KT: Okay. Can we also, but can we also talk about this as well? Like I, I'm not diagnosing, I don't know if she was in a depressive state because George did mention it when he was talking to Danny later on, that she's had, you know, bouts of depression. Right. So who's to say that what she was saying at particular moments, maybe that was her depression talking and not necessarily her, but you are your depression if you are depressed. You know, I just wanna make that clear. But they were in the gallery when, and, and again, this is funny because I appreciate when they do scenes for art people that aren't art people. And that was me, them having a whole gallery of chairs, like, I'm like, if, if it gets you off, friends and lover is, do you boo boo? Don't put your ass. See, just enjoy it from over there. But in that gallery, she says to George, to his face in the Publix, having sex with you is like vanilla really? Fuck off. What if a man said that in public Fuck off? [00:28:01] Oti: she needs to spice it up. She needs to take action in that [00:28:04] KT: But why doesn't she handle it like a fucking mature adult? Why doesn't she say it in the bed chambers where they can whisper other nasty shit to each other? Why are you saying it in public? You're trying to humiliate him. That's disgusting. [00:28:18] Oti: I, I, yeah, I, I see that that wasn't something good to say to George. You know, he was meeting up with Amy after taking the whole day about Mia. So, you know, maybe he wasn't even [00:28:30] performing that because he couldn't, [00:28:33] KT: Okay. [00:28:34] Oti: it's all fair, man. [00:28:36] KT: Well, it doesn't seem like it. Um, Well, let's, let's go to, um, the next theme. Choose your trauma fighter because something that I, I guess, got really muk, um, I would say past midway of this show, the sort of discussions that we would have was, why was I going so hard for Danny, and why were you going so hard to defend Dam? [00:29:07] Oti: Dean, [00:29:07] KT: This is what I wanna lay out here. And, you know, there's a lot to say about Danny's character. However, like I said, I feel like it does get combated and it does get met with confrontation and with challenging who he is as a person and owning the decisions that he's, um, you know, laid out in the show. Right. So what I wanna talk about specifically between the two of them is, again, frame of reference. We, we, we talked about our friends and lovers, especially in our, um, welcome to Chippendale's, um, episode. You know, it's impossible and it would be, um, disingenuous to say that you don't bring part of, if not your whole self tour watching experience, which also extends to a review, right? So in that, They're both fucking psychopaths, right? They both are not the sort of people you [00:30:00] want in what we call our joker society, right? [00:30:04] Oti: Mm-hmm. [00:30:05] KT: Because we live in a society, but at least with Danny, and maybe it is a class thing because like you point out in parasite, I was very much fighting for the poor people, right? So, When it comes to Danny, I understand his motivations because we haven't even talked about the disgusting sort of decisions he made to make sure that Paul would stay around. Right. We haven't even talked about that yet, but what I would say is in regards to Danny as disgusting, as selfish, as self-serving, as self-loathing as it was, I understood why he did that. [00:30:45] Oti: I can't, I can't do that. I, I really couldn't draw a line there [00:30:49] KT: Okay, well, we'll get into detail. When it comes to Amy's character, I can't understand that it, from, from there, it becomes conniving. It becomes scheming. It becomes lasting hurt, and you can't blame that on that witch babadook. You can't blame it all on the witch ba. [00:31:18] Oti: But the witch Babadook follows are everywhere. What? [00:31:26] KT: What do you wanna blame it on? Do you wanna blame it on childhood? Do you wanna blame [00:31:30] it on the witch babadook fantasy? Which again, because there wasn't a lot that was a fantastical sort of nature that as well, you know, it felt like it got to a point of, oh shit, oh shit. Oh shit. Amy is very, very unlikable and we haven't checked her at all. Throw in the therapist. Throw in the witch babadook. Yeah, I'm thinking I'm back. [00:31:51] Oti: You know what? I think it's, it's a matter of perception because I think for the first three quarters of the show, mm-hmm. We get to see Daniel, this poor guy who's just done on his luck, who is really loving, he loves, you know, he loves his brother, he's showing up for his parents. That's all he wants to. Until the, it starts tanning and we started to reveal more about Danny as a character and as a person. Then you get to see how, you know what, he's not this great guy. He's not this great guy. He carries himself out to be, who's just down on his [00:32:28] KT: You're a bit, you're a bit of a politician. [00:32:30] Oti: No, no, no. He intentionally kept Paul around. [00:32:34] KT: Yes. [00:32:36] Oti: Got rid of his app college application letters. For what? So he could always have, you know, Paul around him by his side. [00:32:45] KT: No, I get that, but I feel like you are underselling if we are talking about Danny and Amy in the first. Like you say, first three quarters. Yes. We didn't know the underpinnings of his yucky. Um, [00:33:00] what is that? Like the co-dependency, like the need for co-dependency then? Yeah. That wasn't shown until the later part of the show. However, it was made very clear that the, he's dealing with something. They even had, you know, him potentially, you know, trigger warning friends and lovers. But we're not gonna spend too much time. Committing suicide. You know, and he even talked about that. I, I think in the finale episode, if not the second last episode, that that day when she beeped at him, he was returning those grills, right? So if you wanna paint the brush, you can paint the brush. And you said it's about perception? It's absolutely about perception. So whether we buy into Danny or whether we buy into Amy, I do think the show, um, demonstrated well. Even though we didn't know the underpinnings, it demonstrated well that the two of them are wackadoos. Just like they just wanted to channel their anger somewhere else. [00:33:58] Oti: Yeah. I just felt Danny got a, a better, you know, veneer around him that Oh, he's just a guy who's done on his luck, who's slightly, you know, he not slightly, he's depressed as well. Yeah, and he, he, he, he, he just needs to catch a break, but in. He is the architect of a lot of the things that has gone wrong in his life from following his cousin in Isaac. You know, he, I, I'm pretty sure he was knee deep [00:34:30] in that shit. Yeah. He wasn't just a bystander. Yeah. To the point where he was doing the renovations with the money he was stealing from Isaac and then pretending he was church Don. He was getting it legit. And lying to everyone else around him. [00:34:44] KT: Yeah. [00:34:45] Oti: I don't know. I, I, I understand. I get him, I, I, I could feel I could understand the codependency aspect of it. He felt like he was just as bad as Amy, if not slightly more [00:34:57] KT: interesting. I don't even think I need to say I don't agree cuz it's clear. Cle I agreed with what a, a lot of what you said. But the fraying and I, I guess the, the part of where we sort of, you know, have a, a a a, vast sort of difference is Danny was still what he was at the end of the show. Amy got progressively more and more the nearest level. [00:35:27] Oti: No, we, we both get character growths from both Amy and Danny. Amy. Danny gets a, a pivotal. Turning point in window cornered and he decides, okay, I need to get Paul as far away from me as possible and the only way Paul will be able to leave me is if I tell him the whole truth. And that's he is forced into that situation. [00:35:54] KT: situation. I'm [00:35:55] Oti: was an ex machining, a sort of situation where, whoop, we're in the situation [00:36:00] knee Egypt. The only thing I can do to save this, my brother, who I love. [00:36:05] KT: No, he loves him. Yeah. Come on now. [00:36:07] Oti: Yeah. I was being mean. Oh, he loves, you've seen, [00:36:11] KT: you've seen Carman's, mom and Carman. [00:36:14] Oti: Yeah. Yeah. But he is forced into that situation. Same as Amy daughter's been kidnapped. She has to do something about it. I don't know. They, they're both EQ equally shit, like you said. [00:36:34] KT: Well, I said a lot more than that, but I think, I think the way to say it is I feel like if I were to be attacked by Danny or Amy, I would know where Danny is coming from and not Amy. Like she could attack you from any. She'll be that fucking anime where she's, she like stabs into you and you don't feel it until you have your sequence. [00:37:05] Oti: I hear you. But Danny isn't much better. He would do the same in a heartbeat. [00:37:10] KT: I don't know. And I think, um, you know, friends and lovers, like I said, you know, life is fucking messy. And even when you're working through your best, it's still fucking messy. Something that I didn't appreciate, um, from Amy's characters when she went back to her parents.[00:37:30] [00:37:30] Oti: Mm. [00:37:30] KT: Like get your healing somewhere else. Do you realistically think the people that you say have imparted all of this generational trauma? You go back there and you're going to get the healing and the um, sort of closure that you were looking for, and then you get annoyed at them. It reminded me of Molly from Insecure. [00:37:51] Oti: Mm. [00:37:52] KT: When she was talking to her mom, being like, did you know? Didn't you know? And the mom's like, we're not talking about this. Like, I'm not talking about this with you. It's also none of your fucking business. [00:38:03] Oti: true. [00:38:05] KT: Because you know, we talk about generational trauma, but they don't talk about generational player hood like just cause that was a player player. Doesn't that make you a player? And why aren't you more disgusted in yourself? No offense. Why aren't you more disgusted in yourself if you were so disgusted in your father? [00:38:23] Oti: No, she's disgusted with herself because she's disgusted by the father. They're one of the same thing. Thek. the father. [00:38:35] KT: Is this your ink plot test? Ot. That's okay. My Freudian slipper. We don't need to spend a lot of time on this, but I do just wanna point out that rich people be poor too. They just find other ways to stay rich or appear staying rich. Fumi classic.[00:39:00] [00:39:00] Oti: Oh yeah. It's all about the appearances. [00:39:02] KT: I would also say that I love Justin h Min, um, but it seems like maybe this isn't where him and his agent thought they were going to go, but he kind of has a face that you wanna fight. [00:39:15] Oti: fight. [00:39:18] KT: And just so we throw some diversity in the ring, Nicholas Holt is also one of those F faces. [00:39:22] Oti: Mm-hmm. [00:39:23] KT: You're just like, you just need a good will Smith. [00:39:28] Oti: Wow. [00:39:31] KT: Emancipate yourself, oti. Um, do you have any thoughts anymore, um, sort of feelings to throw on the grill? Ot? [00:39:44] Oti: I just thought he had some selective outrage on Amy. For Amy. Oh. So, [00:39:49] KT: wow. [00:39:55] Oti: Yeah. [00:39:55] KT: what you're telling me. Is that you are cool and you prefer your women to be submissive or appear submissive. You don't want them to be held accountable as equals. Is that what you're saying? Omar? Oti. [00:40:09] Oti: from the Church of Houma. [00:40:14] KT: just like the finale of this show, um, the ending of our episode is very ridiculous. I just wanna quickly say I didn't care for the finale. Um, I, I do feel like any sort of major event should happen in the second last episode, at least, so you [00:40:30] can deal with the fallout of the finale. I didn't necessarily care for the format. And I also didn't care for the final scene, even though apparently it was, um, Ali Wong and Steven Young deciding to end it that way. I'm just like, boo, what were, what were we working towards? Boo? [00:40:47] Oti: Well, You go get trapped in the desert. Get poisoned together and don't, don't think that you'll end up being forming some sort of connections. [00:40:57] KT: Yeah. Poisonous and venomous. [00:41:03] Oti: man. If I drug your ass through a desert, I need to get some cuddle at the end of it. [00:41:08] KT: And that's why friends and lovers love is conditional. [00:41:13] Oti: Everything is conditional. [00:41:21] KT: You're a ridiculous man. Um, we wanna finish off in the segment we call for your reference ot. [00:41:27] Oti: Since you brought up Molly in the episode, I'm gonna reference Insecure. [00:41:32] KT: Oh, nice. Speaking about character development, that is very fulfilling and holding them to account [00:41:41] Oti: Yeah. [00:41:42] KT: and if we are continuing, expanding black storytelling representation in genres that exist, but definitely deserve to be, have a new spin on it. I'm gonna reference warm. [00:41:56] Oti: Nice. [00:41:58] KT: If you'd like to experience the [00:42:00] foyer reference conditional Loving on Twitter and Instagram, where fpo. [00:42:03] Oti: write us an email like hello f podcast.com. [00:42:06] KT: We're also on, we Love Ali Wong podcast. If you'd like to leave a rating and review and we'll see you guys next week. [00:42:14] Oti: Ali Wong. [00:42:15] KT: Hey.