Training Day – It Jakes a wolf to catch a wolf

Full transcript of Training Day – It Jakes a wolf to catch a wolf.

0:00KT: Hey, friends and lovers. We usually don't have a preemptive warning for the episode. We just wanna reiterate that black lives still matter. If you've watched Training Day, if you haven't, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, but it does surround Denzel's character who is a crooked cop. So we definitely hold his character accountable in the episode, but we also understand that the fight is still being fought. And if this is going to be a hard episode to listen to, then we completely understand. But, you know, in light of Chadwick Boseman, we are working on a tribute episode.

0:36KT: But in light of that, we definitely wanna give accolades to actors that have really changed our lives and changed cinema, and we wanna do it when we can as well. So join us along the journey. Understandable if you don't, but let's get on with the show. Howdy, friends and lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host, KT.

0:36Oti: And Oti.

0:36KT: And do you wanna go to jail, or do you wanna go home?

1:30Oti: I wanna go home.

1:32KT: Well, this week you need to put down your books because we are serving some street justice with Training Day this week. Mhmm. Is it a classic Oti?

1:32Oti: It is a classic in my book.

1:32KT: Oh, and your books are the most learned in all of the land. So let's dive into the stats, is what we usually do around here. It was released in 2001, director Antoine Fuqua. We have the writer David Ayer and all of the stars were out in this production, wasn't it, Oti? Mhmm. Indeed. Oti sorry. Denzel Washington

2:12Oti: Oti, you got it right, the fast dog.

2:17KT: And Ethan Hawke. There was obviously quite some nice guest appearances. I spotted Macy Gray. Dr. Dre was also there. And we had Snoop Dogg. Apparently Eminem was offered the role but because of 8 Mile being in production, he had to be available for that. But that would have been a crossover with Eminem, Dr. Dre and Snoop Dogg. Yeah. Right? Well, the world can see it, I guess in the future. But yeah. Oh, full quali te. Okay. For the box office, the budget of this movie was 45,000,000. Where?

2:54Oti: What do you mean where?

2:55KT: I I don't I don't understand where all that money went to be honest. To Denzel, mate. Oh, yeah, actually. Is this peak Denzel?

3:06Oti: Oh, this is peak Denzel

3:08Oti: in my book.

3:08KT: Yeah. In your learned books. T. Rodgers is the founder of the Black P. Stones Bloods in Los Angeles. They were in his vicinity, in his dominion. So maybe that's where some of the money went. I don't know, Don't come and fight me. So on that budget, they actually accumulated a $104,800,000. Nice. That's good. That's a lot of training. It is. Wow. But yeah, let's get into our first impressions. Know, Oti said that it is a classic, so I guess we can go through

3:50KT: what it was like watching it now. What's it like watching it back in the time, how you felt about all the Denzelisms in the movie, if you had any sort of drinking games for that. And obviously I wanna talk about Ethan Hawke, I fucking love him. Great guy. Super cool guy. But, yeah, let's get into first impressions, Oti.

4:13Oti: Well, I love this, man. I I think I really didn't it scared me. It scared me the first time I watched it.

4:13KT: Were you you don't have to give an exact age, but were you like a teenager? Were you a preteen?

4:13Oti: I was a baby. Zoebebe Shams. Yep. Archie reference. And I think it scared me just seeing Denzel do this sort of role Because in my experience, he was always this sort of good guy in this stuff.

4:37Oti: And then in this, was like, oh, I don't know what this is. This is not my Denzel. The smiling was not malicious.

4:44KT: Yeah.

4:45Oti: Really wasn't. And I think back then, primarily, I think, especially in my sort of neighborhood and circles, we knew Denzel primarily for the role he played in Cry Freedom. I think it was when he played Steve Biko during the South African apartheid. Uh-huh. And wow. Just seeing him in this sort of veneer was just

5:10Oti: mind fuckery to the next degree.

5:10KT: You really need to score me on my Denzel because you went back to the eighties. What? Yeah. Cry Freedom. I'm looking at it now. It came out in 1987. Oh. I don't know that Denzel.

5:24Oti: I knew that Denzel because it was the one sort of tape that circulated the whole neighborhood, like, 10 times.

5:33KT: And it starts to get a bit fuzzy?

5:35Oti: Or you'll have, like, neighbors that don't rewind the tape. They just started in parts where they started getting really fuzzy, you know. But, wow. It was just I think I was not used to seeing him like that because all the sort of movies beforehand that I had sort of known my Denzel to be were so completely different.

5:35KT: You're so cute. My Denzel. He

5:55KT: is my bloody Denzel. And And he's mine as well. The Denzel is mine.

6:02Oti: I said it. And I think it just goes to show the sort of range he has. People Yeah. Would come for him because he doesn't do a lot of something way off field that would require him to fucking starve himself or whatever, but that's not really you know?

6:22KT: Well, I think that's that's definitely something interesting and I hope we have some time to talk about it. There's a difference between being an archetype and there's a difference between being known for something. Right? Because you can have you can have actors where it becomes a bit grating or, you know, Buscemi is always there for his wet eyes in the background. But then you also have people that they're just fucking good at what they do. Right? Yeah. Imagine Dragons, all of your sounds like, all of the songs sound the same, but they're still great.

6:55KT: If you can differentiate them. But, yeah, there's there's definitely a distinction between archetype and what you're most known for. And I really hope that we can talk about it because to say that Denzel doesn't have range we're just fighting at the blank Internets right now. But to say that Denzel doesn't have any sort of range because he has that that continual sort of charm, I think is a disservice. And we don't deserve him if that's the case. Robot Jesus take us all over right now because we don't deserve Denzel or Oti Washington.

7:31KT: You definitely have to say something about Ethan Hawke before I get into first impressions. Thank you.

7:35Oti: Oh, I did not know him back then.

7:39KT: Fuck off. That's a that's a full blown Succession

7:44Oti: fuck off. I really didn't I all I knew was Denzel was in a movie and I went to watch it.

7:44KT: Okay. That's fair.

7:44Oti: And and that's all. Everything else was fucking background noise, mate.

7:44KT: Okay. That's not fair. No. That is very untoward.

7:44Oti: You're talking about a baby Oti who's just seen his, you know, Steve Biko in a sort of transformed role. Mhmm. And and granted, I watched this even before I watched Malcolm X. So you can sort of see my my weird timeline with Denzel movies.

8:18Oti: Yeah. So it ping ponged me around. It's like a Taye Diggs flash forward flashback. Yeah. It's sort of Daybreak on acid.

8:26KT: Wow. Yeah. And and that's a sound bite right there for your friends and lovers. I wonder when people are going to be like, we get a KT, you're young. But I'm not. There are many younger people than I. But the earliest that I remember, Denzel, was Remember the Titans. Oh, when did that come out? 2006. A year before. No. That came out a year before Training Day in 2000. But I watched I watched I remember the Titans maybe in, like, 2010. But that was my first introduction

9:00KT: of Denzel. It was kind of I I heard the etchings. I heard in my periphery that Denzel is that guy, but I didn't get to witness that. So, yeah, that's it's definitely still peak Denzel, but I didn't get to ride along the journey riding high. 2010,

9:20Oti: that's when he was doing what? Taking of Pelham 1 2 3 or some shit. It was Book of Eli, mate, your favorite movie.

9:28KT: Oti is

9:30KT: he's he's very smart, but he didn't pick up the twist.

9:30Oti: It was a stupid twist. We're not spoiling it. We're not spoiling it. We're not spoiling The Book of Eli right now. I'm very disappointed that wasn't Anyone up who knows what the hell I'm talking about is fucking ridiculous.

9:43KT: Are you okay now? I'm okay. I've got You it need to create your subreddit? No. It's alright. Yeah. And this is our first Denzel movie that we covered. Yeah. Yeah. So I I didn't really know much about it, but I fucking love Denzel in this. And I think I did it wrong. I think I was supposed to hate him, But who the fuck and again, you watched it when you were a kid, so I guess it makes sense,

10:10KT: you know, that you were, like, a bit, like, on edge with Denzel. But I am a whole woman, And this whole woman really appreciated this bad boy Denzel. I was like, I am here for this. This is great. I'm having the time of my life, girl. I really I really enjoyed it. And we're going to, you know, go into more detail and talk about the movie. But just in general, first impressions, I really enjoyed his role. I thought it was great. I didn't I was very confused why they had menacing music

10:47KT: because I was cheering him on when he was doing all of the shitty things. Because everyone loves an antihero, but for some reason, we're not supposed to like him. Oh, far up. That is just not everyone likes an antihero. Narcos?

11:04Oti: We cheering. We cheering Pablo Escobar. We were just enthralled by what the fuck was going on back then. Quietly.

11:12KT: No. I'm talking about Narcos. I'm talking about as a entertainment vessel Yeah. People like anti heroes.

11:20Oti: I don't know. I wasn't cheering. I wasn't cheering Escobar in that show like that. I was just I was watching it with you. Plomo o plata. Exactly.

11:32KT: Keep your exotic hippos to yourself, Oti Mhmm. Which is also what he calls me on a Friday night, but that's a story for another day. But yeah. So I didn't get to ride the the peak wave of SS Denzel.

11:45KT: As

11:47KT: for Ethan Hawke, I fucking love him. Again, I didn't really get to see his career. I'm glad he still exists. He was the only good thing about Boyhood. Yeah. Think that's really the only commentary you'll hear from us in regards to Boyhood. I do like Patricia Arquette, but, you know Yeah. She was kind of a shitty character and a shitty mom. Anyway, let's leave the shitty moms alone for a second. Ethan Hawke was great in this. Denzel Washington. Ethan Hawke. Both men exude so much charm but completely polar opposites. Right? Denzel

12:27KT: is like he's charismatic. He's got that smile. He'll wet all the panties, even your own. Yeah. Right? Are you confirming? Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Good to hear. Very well wetted. Very well wetted. And Ethan Hawke has this cool sort of charm. Right? He's great. He's he's very accommodating as an actor. He allows other actors to live and breathe in that space. He's very generous. Like, you just wanna sit and have a beer with him. Yeah. Really. So to have these two juggernauts sharing the screen, you didn't really need any other cast. True.

13:06Oti: And there was barely any other cast. It was just an interaction between Denzel and Ethan.

13:06KT: But I'm saying, like, if if they had actors that were of lesser elk,

13:13KT: it wouldn't have done as well. No. We would have been looking around for some other sort of reprieve. I mean, especially for a two hour movie. But I think I feel like the dynamic works really, really well. And I really enjoyed that. Are there any sort of general thoughts?

13:31Oti: When did you sort of get your beak wet with Ethan Hawke? Because I can't really remember the sort of timeline where I got sort of introduced to his stuff.

13:31KT: Dead Poets Society motherfucker.

13:44KT: That is gonna be annexpected. Can't even remember him in that. It's babyface Hawke.

13:48Oti: Oh, wow. That's my sort of mindset with him because growing up, I was just like, and then all of a sudden, I, like, started seeing him in all the stuff. Was like, oh, this guy was a thing. He is a thing.

14:02KT: It's amazing that he's in, like, blockbuster mainstream sort of movies, but you still regard him as that guy that's just like, oh, He's cool. Yeah. Right? You wouldn't regard him as, like, a movie like, a full on blockbuster movie star. Yeah. He's like the blockbuster Dean Winters. Oh, yes. Thank you. And now we're both wet. Yes. You're welcome. Now both of our panties needs some replacing. Oh, we have not mentioned Dean Winters in a long time.

14:31Oti: Yeah. Is deep. It was definitely deep.

14:35KT: But what a great movie. A very simple sort of premise. There are a lot of there was a lot of twists and turns where are we going to go in these like, in in regards to the particular particular plot. Plot. But it wasn't really that complicated. It was it was enough to have a story, but then we could really focus on the dynamics between Denzel and also Ethan.

14:58Oti: Yeah. And I think rewatching it a second time when I'm older, it sort of felt a bit too simplistic. And I guess that's one of the sort of qualms that I have with it now. But I think back then

14:58KT: Is it a baby qualm or is it a foundation?

14:58Oti: It's it's a baby qualm. It's still it's still introduced me to the sort of range of Denzel, and I think I'll always have that sort of fond memory of when I watched it initially.

15:24Oti: And with people who don't have that sort of Frame of reference. Frame of reference, I guess, still view this movie sort of differently. I'm watching it again. I was like, okay. The storyline's a bit too yeah. You know?

15:36KT: It's quite linear, simple, just You know you know what I just noticed? Ethan Hawke is actually in the movie poster.

15:46Oti: You didn't see anything behind the Denzel.

15:48KT: Oh, fucking love you, Ethan Hawke.

15:53Oti: Oh, that is. But, yeah, it's it's just one of those things that I think rewatching it made me think sort of differently about the movie. Okay. But in in the sort of totality of it, it doesn't really change much for me. And because it's an experience. It's an experience. It's an experience. It brought sort of it was sort of nostalgic, and I really didn't get disappointed. I I fully enjoyed watching this again. And probably in a few months' time, I would not mind delving in again deeper.

16:26KT: Again? Again. Wow. I thought it couldn't get no deeper. You said it was simplistic.

16:32Oti: Yeah. But it's it's watching the sort of performance that Denzel does and just elevates the movie so so much for me. Yeah. Like, brings more than the words on the page. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. He he he lifts he he carries the movie to a higher echelon that it it probably lays on. Uh-huh. And and for that, it just goes to show how fucking

16:55KT: great he is. Like, if you get to witness Denzel in his element, you should be paying him to watch him. I just I thought he was fucking great. Like I said, I was utterly enthralled. You know, give me give me ten minutes with Denzel and I would be all up in that world. Right? And and we'll talk a bit about Jake's reluctance to accept that world because I have qualms with that sort of, like, complications and stories. But let's start off with Alonzo. Mhmm. Not Mother's Milk Alonso, but Alonzo in Training Day. Yep.

17:31KT: The Boys reference. Go and listen to our boys The Boys episode. So Alonzo, as far as we understand, I guess you could call him a dirty cop. The way he set up I guess he's dirty as they come. I I am pussy whipped. Mhmm. No. The no. He would be whipped by my pussy. I would be, I have no idea. Dick lashed.

17:54Oti: Wow. I don't know. Is that a thing?

17:58KT: Watch out for our our eyelashes line by Otis. Dick lashes. Can you get like little lashes with the shape of dicks? Actually, that would be great marketing for a bachelorette party. Oh, yeah. In perpetuity, we claim royalties, 500%. But going back to Alonzo, it was kind of it was it's kinda like the metaphor of like a frog in simmering water. Right? Like, we started to see who Denzel presented himself to be and then even those layers started to unfold throughout

18:34KT: the movie. So, yeah, you know he's a bit off. He doesn't do things by the book. He doesn't he's smart enough not to record any any sort of logs that might get him caught up in the future. But at least the way I saw it, in the first less than a third of the movie, I was led to believe, and maybe it was my my Denzel rose colored glasses, I was led to believe that, yeah, he does he does some crooked shit, but you're not gonna be able to, like, apprehend shitty

19:13KT: people without shitty methods. That's kind of the way that I saw it. He was kind of a bit rogue. He was kind of a bit McNulty from The Wire where he wanted to get results. Oh, yeah. The fact that he indulged in the spoils of war, that's a whole another complication. But he kept talking about, you know, like, we need to do it. This needs to be done. This is street justice. So I was like, okay. This guy's got a code. Right? So as distorted as it might be,

19:44KT: because it is very dangerous when people have their own sense of justice, but he had a code that he lived by.

19:51Oti: I wouldn't even say he had a code. He was just.

19:54KT: No. It was all lip service, but I'm saying like near the start of the movie, he was like, you know, he's raping girls. We need to like, we did well. Yeah. Right? Or he's been selling drugs to kids for over ten years. So this was justified. Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler. We're getting into spoilers now. So I kind of I was okay. I was okay in that setting. And then as the movie unfolded, it was hard to defend him. But boy, did I try.

20:27Oti: Rewatching this and sort of piecing together what wherever they were trying to say or lay out for Denzel.

20:35Oti: Mhmm. That's sort of because I already watched it ages ago, and I could sort of remember bits and pieces here and there. I was like, oh, okay. So this is what he said this because of that. Mhmm. Alright. But it wasn't enough to me for me to sort of, well, at least back then Mhmm. Piece everything together. So I could see where you're coming from thinking that it was sort of a slow boil. He's just for me, in this movie, he just started being corrupt in the get go. The first minute we saw him on the screen, he was just bad.

20:35KT: Is this the first sort of, like, evil character that he's played that you've seen?

20:35Oti: Well, there's American Hustle,

21:11Oti: I think. That's what it was called. He played like a gangster mobster. So there was that as well. Yeah. There's been not a lot, really. He swings he he he leans the other way. Yeah. It was one of those things I was like, okay. This guy is just in the far sort of scene where he meets Ethan Hawke, they stop a car with college kids Yep. And then forces Ethan to take whatever he thought was weed at the time. Laced with PCP or some some letter. Yeah. I was like, fucking hell.

21:42KT: He put a gun on his head. Was literally entrapment. He did it so he felt like he had to he's very abusive.

21:49Oti: Only for you to get to the end of the movie and realize why he did that all in the first place.

21:49KT: No. It it was made quite clear. It it was a way to, you know, hold the

21:59KT: guillotine over him, so to say.

21:59Oti: But not until he killed his

22:04Oti: his friend, supposed friend in Roger, that he starts sort of, you know, you could see him explaining things. I've been planning this thing weeks before I met you, he said. Yeah. And you could see if if I if you deny our story and they drug test you, they'll find traces or But he yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Like, he knew what he was doing and that was quite clear.

22:04KT: And again, I go back to the symbolism

22:30KT: of the frog in, like, a simmering pot of water. That was Jake. Like, there were so many instances that happened that made him deeper and deeper into this hole. Right?

22:44Oti: To the point where he couldn't just leave. Yeah. Yeah. Ana, sometimes you'd want to think that if you're in that scenario, surely you walk out of the fucking car. Yeah. But then he's susceptible.

22:56KT: And I guess he never thought that it would escalate to Probably not. To the point that it did. It was a fucking wild day.

22:56Oti: After everything had unfolded,

23:06Oti: Jake was still fucking naive enough Oh, yes. To to still believe that Alonzo had the best his best interest Oh, yes. And to follow him into some fucking another location. Mhmm. And then he's gotta take a shit and then just leave him there with a couple of rough looking guys. Yeah. Oh, bloody hell, man.

23:06KT: It it was kind of on the nose. Like throughout the whole movie,

23:32KT: they kept drawing parallels on how Jake is very similar to Alonzo. I think that was just to play to the comeuppance at the end of the movie that we'll come to. But I found that really cheesy. Alonzo's like, I remember when I used to be like you. Mate, you're a fucking psycho. You were on a different plane of existence. Yep. But that that you know, those are the strings of manipulation, right, that Alonzo had. So it was interesting. It was interesting to see how effective he was in manipulating

24:05KT: Jake as well. Oh, for sure. Let's talk about Jake. Let let's talk about Jake. And I guess I brought it up in our The Boys episode and probably some of our other episodes on our podcast where I get annoyed when the character, usually the protagonist, is being thrust into a world and there is a role that is also assigned to them. Mhmm. Right? What I get annoyed with is there's too much back and forth. Right? Us as viewers, we get it and we're ready to move on to the next sequence,

24:43KT: but you keep getting examples and resistance from that particular character. Right? I just have a general impatience with it. But the fact that this was a movie, it didn't need all of that back and forth of him resisting or, you know, fighting temptations. Shout out to Beyoncé. Do you remember that? I remember that. Wow. Will we? Probably not. Well, I I'm in it for the long haul. We're gonna have many episodes ahead of us. But, yeah, it it becomes very tedious when I'm waiting for the main character

25:21KT: to latch onto the world or defy the world, resist the world, and let's move on. So I think that that was a bit of my umbrance with Jake. I'm just like, come on now.

25:34Oti: Either either But it's all happening within the day. It's all happening within the day. It's not like he's had a week to think about it or to to steal over it. To protect the sheep, you gotta beat the wolf. You know, this is the same sort of opposite qualms we had with Queen & Slim.

25:56Oti: Uh-oh. When Queen was too quick to to jump into the bandwagon, I was like, mate, no one would ever fucking react. Not a lot of people would fucking react like that. Come on now. Simmer down. I thought Queen & Slim was at Voldemort. Yeah. Probably.

26:14KT: But To to be fair, I actually didn't I actually didn't mind that Queen accepted and she pretty much popped off. No. I there has to be some sort of resistance. Otherwise, what the fuck? It's like you're waiting for this moment to happen. Yeah. But the runtime of Queen & Slim is probably longer than Training Day. So you have time for that nonsense like that back and forth. I personally don't care for it. Right? Yeah. We have Alonzo that's super evil, but even more charming. That's objective. That's definitely objective. And then you have Jake who

26:51KT: really just wants to get in and get the job done. He does have a lot of idealistic tendencies of how the system works. In our Godfather episode, we also noted to that as well. Yeah. Stupid Kay. Stupid Kay thinking that politicians don't run around and get dirty for their political campaigns. Needed to open his eyes. Oh, yeah. Alonzo took it a bit too much too much further than he needed to go, but he needed to understand that crime is fucking grimy.

27:25Oti: Mhmm. Especially for him wanting to become a detective. You know? Yeah. And the sort of world view you get from, you know, once you off off you've just finished college, you go out there fresh out thinking that you're gonna conquer the world, and then life just smacks you right back down with and then you're like, oh, fuck. You know? It's it has to happen. And I think for him, it was realistic for me at least to see him struggling with the decisions, especially when he had such a high

27:57Oti: he had such high expectations for himself Yeah. And what he wanted to achieve. He wanted to become a detective, you know. It wasn't about the money. It wasn't about whatever else sort of

27:57KT: But this wasn't like wherever Fargo is set.

28:11KT: This was like in California and they went to so many different, like, neighborhoods that were prominent with gangs. Right? So this wasn't going to be some easy sort of ride into becoming a detective.

28:24Oti: Yeah. Well, then you're gonna get Alonzo promising you he's gonna make you detective every single scene rather than the kid. Rather than I'm gonna make like him. Both. Yeah. You would.

28:39KT: And that also comes to many quotable quotes that Alonzo has is it's not what you know, it's what you can prove. Oh yeah. You know who Alonzo is? Alonzo is that relative that you have that will quote the Bible, but they completely take it out of context.

29:00Oti: If you can't even try and take it out of context. Yeah.

29:05KT: Jesus said dessert was not for Sundays.

29:09Oti: That's just a sad insight to my life. Well, you can quote the Bible to suit whichever whichever purpose you need and for like, whatever excuse you need, you can find a verse for it. Yes. The internet is the Bible of the modern age. For sure.

29:26KT: Do do you genuinely because this is an interesting this is an interesting sort of thing. You have Alonzo who you know, he is a leader. By by all definitions, he is a leader. Quality, I guess I guess, is to be determined by the reviewer. But he was definitely a leader. A lot of the times when you have people that are leaders, they know they know how to get shit out of people. Usually, it's a one-sided sort of affair. Yeah. Right? So the question I have is, Alonzo,

30:02KT: do you think that he he sniffed his own own fumes or do you think that he was playing a vibrato

30:09KT: to get what he wanted?

30:09Oti: Oh, he he he was high on his own fumes. He was fucking unhinged, wasn't he? Oh, yeah. He had gone way beyond the, you know, the recommended level of badness if there even is one. He was baptized in the rivers of Alonzo. Oh, bloody hell. To be in a neighborhood of, well, majority black people Yeah. And for them to want to see him die just because of how much they fucking hate his guts Yep. That just tells you a lot. It must be really fucking bad for that to happen.

30:46Oti: Right? Yeah.

30:48KT: It's it's interesting. We can definitely talk more about Alonzo. But since you brought up the final scene, let's talk a bit about that. So, you know, not the most synciest of your teethiest sort of scripts. It literally is on the surface. A lot of the depth is brought in by the acting, not necessarily writing. But in any case, it's very effective. We understand the dynamic. Jake is literally on training day, roll credits. And Alonzo is taking him along for the ride, slowly simmering seeing how far Jake can accept this life. Because at

31:35KT: every checkpoint he was given an out.

31:37Oti: Right? Oh, so he was meant to believe Well, yeah. It very

31:42KT: abusive. The first one was when well, one of the first ones was when he was beating up the two crackheads that were trying to rape the young girl. And he even thought, oh, maybe it's fine. Let me let me bash them. Right? So he kind of he was okay with that. But with each continuing circumstance, he was like, nah, fam. Like, this ain't for me, blood. Like, I no. This is too much. This is too far. This goes goes past any sort of what is right. Yeah. And

32:19KT: I think one of the one of the squad members was like, oh, someone wasn't sleeping in their fixed class. Is that an insult? What the fuck was that?

32:29Oti: Ridiculous.

32:32KT: So we have this sort of dynamic, will he, won't he fill the role of Alonzo? Right? And then as the movie continues, it becomes quite clear that no, he's not gonna fill the role of Alonzo. Did you when you watched it for the first time, did you think that Jake was going to be killed by Cliff Curtis? Also shout out to Cliff Curtis, our neighbor from across the ocean. Oh, yeah.

32:54Oti: I yeah. Thought he was done for. I'd even forgotten the scene where he'd rescued the the girl from being raped. Yeah. And then, you know, full circle, callback, and apparently, they're related. And that saves him in that situation where he doesn't get killed.

33:12KT: Yeah. It was it was a nice it was a nice baby twist. Because actually, let's let's go to this. At the start of the movie, we have Ethan Hawke and we also have his wife and the bear bear and there are candles around his picture. Mhmm. So I took the first sequence of Ethan Hawke being a ghost visiting the wife, not a Demi Moore sort of Swayze situation. But I thought it was like a precursor of Ethan Hawke dying. Oh. Yeah. The the ending was really interesting.

33:46KT: According to IMDb trivia, which is where you should go if you have qualms with this trivia, not us. Apparently, Alonzo's character was supposed to walk away and be innocent of all his crimes. Apparently, that was the ending, but Denzel was like, no. He needs to have his comeuppance.

34:05Oti: Walk away how? How would you explain that at all? I can't understand.

34:10KT: Because life isn't fair, yo. Okay. That's true.

34:16Oti: Actually, more more often than not, they walk away. Please subscribe for my screenplay. Oh, alright. But I'm I'm glad that it ended the way it did because it just showed the sort of and it fitted the sort of character that he was. Yeah. He didn't respect anything. He didn't respect anyone.

34:35KT: He was used them, tossed them away. You you heard one of the characters saying he respects nothing. Yeah. You're only as good as your value to him at the moment. You know? Actually, and he was also willing to sacrifice his mijo, his son. Yeah.

34:50Oti: Fuck, man. Yeah. When your son doesn't even come to you when you're calling to him, you know you're a shit person.

34:57KT: Familial ties who? Yeah. Wow. You would think wow. I yeah.

35:04KT: Again, it was hard to defend him, but I found a way.

35:04Oti: Clearly did.

35:09KT: And because I because I didn't really buy in I was more enjoying the character. I didn't buy into him being evil. And that's, again, that's nothing to reflect on his acting. He's fucking brilliant. But I just I was being giddy watching him being evil. Wow. Well, you have Michael Sheen in Prodigal Son being an evil man. But he has a face for it. No. He does not. He sure? When you hear the name Wesley Snipes, do you imagine the Hollywood actor or do you imagine a pasty Englishman? 30 Rock reference. In any case,

35:46KT: my my point is I understood the dynamic of the film. I understood what they were building to. However, I felt like I didn't really need comeuppance from Denzel because I loved him. And I'm like, why do you need to give him comeuppance? I also thought it it was very anticlimactic and it definitely fizzled where there was all of this high tension and you had Jake with the gun.

36:10KT: Right? And we're waiting to see is Alonzo going to get the gun, but then he just grabbed the packet of cigarettes. Right? Yeah. And then someone else comes around and takes that gun. Mhmm. Right? But then he doesn't get shot. Like, I don't know. Years and years and years of, like, keeping, like, people in the neighborhood under your thumb and no not even one, like, canard come and shoot you out of nowhere.

36:36Oti: Yeah. You'd you'd you'd assume there's a canard in there somewhere.

36:40KT: Yeah. That's a spoiler, but we won't say what for. Just not ruin your experience. There's there's also this thing where I think

36:48Oti: by him just rumbling and talking, he was so loathful and just people just felt sorry for him. Like, there's no fucking I felt like he just talked himself out of people are like, no. This fool, mate. Just just let him be. He's too pathetic. He's just too pathetic. Just let him be. And that's why people started walking away because, you know, he doesn't even deserve the fucking one chance. This was your one chance to kill him. No. They already knew about their apparently, everyone knew about the Russian thing. It's been

37:18Oti: overlaying the sort of movie the whole time. Everyone knew that he had screwed up with the Russians and they were looking for him. And if he didn't pay that money before midnight, then he's gone. So let them do the dirty work. Why bother yourself? I guess so. Yeah. So what He was a dead man walking. There's no point in even lifting your finger to do that yourself. I don't know. I I

37:45KT: it's it's rare. It's rare for my opinion to be skewed in regards to a character because of how much I love the actor. But I guess that's what happened in this I guess that's what happens when you don't keep me distracted with proper writing.

38:01Oti: Yeah. It it really wasn't the best, but I think this for his sort of role alone, this is one of the best sort of Denzel movies for me. One I'd say in my top five Denzel movies. Wow. And it has zero to do with the storyline. Like

38:23KT: That's quite clear. Zero.

38:25Oti: You know? I think number one for a lot of people would just be Malcolm X because he fucking knocked it off the park with that. Yep. But wow. Wow. Wow. Wow.

38:25KT: Well, he won an Academy Award for this.

38:25Oti: Yeah. He did because I think they felt sorry because they missed giving him a giving him an actual Oscar that he deserved.

38:45KT: Well, there was upset because Russell Crowe was also nominated the same year for A Beautiful Mind. Oh.

38:51Oti: And that's why you just have to do it properly the first time around so you don't skew things later down the line. Wow. But he got it. It doesn't matter now.

38:51KT: Oh. Oh. Oti is bringing institutionalized

39:01KT: racism in to For Your Reference podcast. Put some doof doof over that, and you've got yourself a hit. Mhmm. You can EGOT Oti. Oh, yeah. That's a 30 Rock reference as well. Also, Ethan Hawke was nominated for supporting actor, which is very similar to Godfather because he had more screen time than Denzel.

39:26Oti: Oh, but it's it's the same scenario with sort of Marlon Brando.

39:26KT: I will not have you besmarching Ethan Hawke in the For Your References.

39:26Oti: I'm not besmarching him. Yes. He had more screen time, but the lead was clear. He he controlled everything.

39:41KT: I hate to break this to you, Oti. And you know I love both of these men, but you're more of a Ethan Hawke than Denzel. You've got more of that cool sort of charm, not like, you know, walk into a room and wet all the pussy charm.

39:58Oti: You've not seen it yet. You just wait.

40:04KT: Is that like Barry from Archer, hey, smell this? Yeah.

40:13Oti: Oh my god. Oh, but Ethan Hawke is great. Come on. Yeah. He's he's he's he's really good. He's really good. And that's what makes him great? No. He's just really good. Damn it. Denzel's great. Yeah. We we we've established that.

40:27KT: There were other actors that were attached. Oh, are they? You being a dick or what are you doing? Yeah. See, you can't even be a dick correctly. That's why you're not Denzel, my love. Truth truth hurts, you know. Are things that you need to hear. Bruce Willis was also offered the role of Alonzo. Okay. Nah.

40:51Oti: I don't know. I like Bruce Willis, so it would have probably worked. Yeah.

40:51KT: Samuel Jackson was also

40:59KT: in the works before they got before they got Antoine on board. It would have been too shouty. Mhmm. But okay. So we've got a bit of time now. So let's go back to the topic that I mentioned at the start of this episode.

41:11Oti: Mhmm.

41:12KT: Because I always say, you know, let's let's let's let's let's put this to the side and let's talk about it. And then we never get to talk about it. So let's spend a little bit of time because this is a perfect time. This is a callback, to earlier. The difference between an archetype and the difference between being known for something. Mhmm. So we talked about Denzel. He he can't help it. Right? He he's just a very charismatic guy. Yep. Right? The fact that that flows into his performances should never be a hindrance.

41:45KT: Mhmm. But that could that could, I guess, be an argument as to him playing the same role because he's so charming. Yeah. Right? Let's spend a bit of time talking about the guest stars of this movie. I spotted Macy Gray from a mile away. Oh, yeah. And as soon as she opened her mouth, I'm like, this is the request line.

42:10Oti: Wow.

42:11KT: It was nice to see her. I personally haven't seen her in anything in a while. Yeah. Don't know. The last time I remember her reference was in The Office when they were singing I Try after Andy's play. See, even that's a bit of a dodgy reference, but that's the last time I remember any sort of referencing to Macy Gray. Yeah. It was good seeing her there. Without without getting too much into my life, you know, this is a podcast, so it is wholly audible.

42:40KT: And I had a huskier voice when I was a kid and I was called very flattering names. And amongst those names were celebrity names. I was maybe not affectionately, was referred to as Whoopi Goldberg and I was also referred to as Macy Gray

43:00KT: because of my voice. So I have a very soft spot for Macy Gray.

43:00Oti: Oh, very nice. But it was good seeing her. It was fun seeing that she sort of was used in that environment. And she was like, this is not a warrant. Where's my money? And she She was smart. She knew what was going on. She really did. She really did. A lot of people wouldn't know that. And it's good to watch movies and stay informed if you can't read a book. Yeah.

43:24KT: Come on, friends and lovers. Let's start a book club. Mhmm.

43:29Oti: Who else who else was guest starring?

43:31KT: Well, we obviously have Snoop Dogg in a wheelchair. It was also referenced later on in the shootout that Denzel was the one that inflicted

43:40KT: the injury to Snoop Dogg

43:40Oti: to You be little could tell he was super scared of Denzel.

43:45KT: Oh, yeah. Oh, definitely. Definitely. And then we also have Dr. Dre as a part of the the crew. Mhmm. So that was that was interesting. What do you wanna do you wanna talk a bit about the crew that then that Alonzo had? They seemed like they've

44:04Oti: they were just bad from the get go altogether. They seemed like they've done a lot of bad shit. Oh, yeah. Totally. They didn't even flinch when killed killed Roger. It was just like, oh, just another day. Oh, it's better him than me. Right? True. And they got a big payday. Even the cop buddy who was shot and they were cysts bleeding out, the Brett the Brett of the group. I swear to god, Brett. If he continue bleeding on the carpet. But, wow, it was it was it was crazy seeing just how they all interacted.

44:40Oti: I wouldn't trust them at all. I would not turn my backs with them. Right? That's how much dodgy those guys looked.

44:47KT: Oh, yeah. You wouldn't wanna be stabbed from the back or the front rather.

44:52Oti: Yeah. You wouldn't want to be stabbed from easy side, to be honest.

44:56KT: What the term that Cliff Curtis and his buddies were saying? Something about pushing shit or something?

45:01Oti: Oh, pushing shit up the ass.

45:07KT: I'm glad that I heard a Oz sort of phrase outside of Oz.

45:14Oti: And the BC's gotta come now, you know?

45:18KT: I think without any sort of experience, I think it kind of felt a bit surface level in regards to the interactions of the neighborhood. I feel like we didn't really get to see a lot of, because it was all just easy airy fairy and that's all and that's how you're going, right? So it was interesting, but again, it was enough for the story to continue along. There wasn't really any sort of unanswered questions, fleshed out for context either.

45:48Oti: No, it wasn't.

45:50KT: I think a lot of the time, at least in my opinion, Alonzo was like kind of like a rogue vigilante that did things because that's how you got results. But then we start to see that that's not necessarily the case. And the fact that he sacrificed Jake then then when he came back to Eva Mendes' house, he was like, it was a test. It was a test.

46:12Oti: You passed the test.

46:15KT: But it's it's just interesting because I guess you you have characters like that that will continue to give you lip service in order to survive. Oh, yeah. He knew he had no chance of surviving in that moment. The fact that Jake made it out and he had put the hit on Jake, he knew that like Alonzo knew that there was no way that he was going well, spoiler, he did get let out of life. But you know what I mean? Like, was there to kill him, but he still kept trying to spin the web.

46:44KT: You know? He's like, what are you gonna do? They're going to test you for drugs and blah blah blah. Like, he just kept going. Yep. Kind of admirable. He kept clawing at me. He he was unhinged at that point.

46:56Oti: Oh, and then I think one of the most one of the finest thing you said while watching this All the time. When Jacob shot Denzel in the ass, Tell us in Latin, old listeners Yes. Yes. With your conspiracy theory.

47:13KT: Pull up your sleeves and drop your trousers because I'm going to hold a whammy on you. Mhmm. I don't know if this is a thing and if it's a thing, it's KT and Oti from the For Your Reference podcast in 2020. This is the third instance where I've witnessed on a TV show or a movie, a black man getting shot in the ass. For those playing at home, the most obvious one would be Martin Lawrence's the fake Michael Lowrey. It's Michael Lowrey. Michael Lowrey. In Bad Boys II getting shot in the ass.

47:50KT: Second one is obviously Alonzo in Training Day. And for all of those playing at home, the third one is Wayne Brady, of all people, in 30 Rock. Getting shot at an award show where LL Cool J was the host and his name was ridiculous. It's a thing. I'm going to start my own YouTube thread.

48:16Oti: Good.

48:17KT: It makes such a great viewing, wouldn't it? Yes. I I'm conducting very important research. So if you have any contributions to black men or anyone getting shot in the ass, I can broaden the categories.

48:35Oti: Yeah, it's one of those things you don't really think that people would shoot you there so.

48:41KT: Right, let's finish off with some other characters. I did give a little bit of a shout out to Cliff Curtis. I do wonder if anyone was offended with his accent, like a Latino sort of accent in this movie. I wonder. But I it's definitely not as bad as Karl Urban in The Boys. He's

49:05Oti: cute. Right? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Threw and through? Throw and throw away? Wow.

49:12KT: Oh, can I not do that? I I must give you credit though because your New Zealand accent is different to your Australian accent.

49:12Oti: Oh, yeah, me? You reckon?

49:21Oti: Fair dinkum.

49:24KT: Where's where's real Oti? I wonder.

49:27Oti: Oh,

49:31KT: but this this was this was a very nice it was a very enjoyable watching experience. And in times of times, what more can you ask for, friends and lovers?

49:43Oti: Perhaps better writing, but you know. We were not there for the writing.

49:49KT: We were literally there for Denzel. Alright. Let's move in to the closing segment, which we call For Your Reference, Oti.

50:00Oti: Oh, I would reference American Gangster where Denzel plays Frank Lucas and he's pretty much a bad guy who Russell Crowe tries to take him down. So as a cop. So that was sort of interesting. We've already seen Denzel as a bad guy in Training Day, why not our father in American Gangster?

50:21KT: Oh, are they fighting around the world? Fighting around the world. That's a saga. And saga. Mhmm. That's a South Park reference.

50:30Oti: And if you want to see Denzel in his best ever

50:36Oti: role

50:36KT: Alright.

50:38Oti: In one of the best movies ever made. Oh. And the best movie in the nineties.

50:46KT: Oh, you're teasing me, my love. Come on. You have to watch him in Malcolm X. That was worth the buildup. It was definitely worth. There you go. Oti will never leave you edging, friends and lovers. And I will reference The Book of Eli. Oh. Denzel performance. Solid writing. It's great. Sink your teeth in. And it's it's definitely rewatchable where you can go back and be like, I'm Oti, and I didn't realize an overwhelming twist in the movie. But I'm gonna put on this vibrato.

51:27KT: Oh, wow. You know where else I put your vibrato, Oti?

51:27Oti: Why you gotta put my vibrato?

51:27KT: On Twitter and Instagram if you're nasty @ForYourRefPod.

51:36Oti: And you can write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com.

51:40KT: We're also an Apple Podcast, guys. Train yourself.

51:44Oti: Or be yourself.

51:45KT: Alright. And we'll see you guys next week. See you. Bye.