The Wiz – Phony Jabroni (with White People Won’t Save You)

Full transcript of The Wiz – Phony Jabroni (with White People Won’t Save You).

0:00KT: Welcome to the B side of KT and Friends where we review films referenced in the Kendrick Lamar and Drake beef. This week, we pop out with Jordan and Cameron from the White People Won't Save You podcast to review the 1978 classic, The Wiz. Welcome, fellas. Friends and lovers, you're probably already listening. Um, and we've, we've had a vibrant and vivacious discussion. I'm adding words because it's in the theme of the film today. There's like general SAS information. I don't really want to get into too much of it.

0:38KT: It was released in October of 1978, directed by Sidney Lumet, uh, writing and directing debut, apparently. Budget of 24 million, worldwide gross of 21 million. cast stacks that class just very quickly going to go Diana Ross, Michael Jackson, Nipsey Russell, Ted Ross, Mabel King, Teresa Merritt, Thelma Carpenter, Lena Horne, Richard Pryor. We're going to get to our initial first impressions. but before we do that, lubricate the mind down yellow brick road with heart, brains, and courage of friendship.

1:17KT: Stay heavy on the gratitude department with The Wiz this week. Oh, you got to go KT and joining us today or this week is,

1:32Guests: uh, Jordan and Cameron. Yeah, there we go. We did it.

1:37KT: We did it. I didn't really, I was just like, it's at that part in the concert, but I'm not Kendrick. So I won't, you won't be able to do the rest of the podcast word for it and what I'm thinking.

1:50KT: Yeah. So this is a direct, uh, reference. There are some sort of like loose references, but this was a direct reference at the start of Euphoria. I'm not even going to attempt to say the line backwards. it took like super, like, keyed in people to tell us, well, at least I didn't know that that's what that particular line was from, from Richard Pryor's character as the Wiz in The Wiz, everything they say about me is true.

2:16KT: I'm a phony and I'm very excited to talk about this cause I feel like this whole scene could be the podcast because of the parallels that it has in the beef. But before we get, before we get to that, I do just want to have like, I guess our non spoiler. sort of thoughts, feelings about The Wiz. I know one or maybe all are like super mega fans.

2:39KT: I'm very excited. It is a first time watch. I'm so sorry. but I am very excited to talk about it today. but let's get into non spoiler thoughts, but eventually friends, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, love, hatred, and healing. I guess. The reimagining of The Wiz positions itself as a classic in its own right. Emotion holds through memorable set pieces and legendary performances.

3:08Guests: Yeah, I will, I will cede the floor to Cameron because I, I'm a fan of The Wiz, but Cameron is, I'll let Cameron tell the story, but in Cameron's family, there are two movies that are sacrosanct and that is The Color Purple and The Wiz. And I know that he knows both movies line for line by heart, uh, having seen them so much. So I will let our certified Wiz expert get off for a minute and, and. Give us his thoughts. Yeah. That's so funny.

3:40KT: Wait, Cameron. Sorry. I hate to do this and you don't have to answer it. I'm going to 60 minute you right now. The Color Purple and The Wiz, I'm more talking about The Color Purple, Steven Spielberg version or the recent version, which one is, which one is held in higher esteem? I know it's a, I know you're conflicted.

4:00Guests: All right. I'm gonna tell you like this. I'm gonna tell you like this. Okay. Uh, this past, uh, Thanksgiving, my family was all together in the same house. So we had a quote off. Okay. Seeing how many, how, who could, who could list as many quotes from The Color Purple as possible? Uh, for those who are old, like us, Back when The Color Purple used to air on, well, like TNT or television, basically, when it was like, we all had the same 30 channels, it was all airing at the same time.

4:35Guests: The reason I would know that The Color Purple was on television at any given moment was because my sister was watching it somewhere else and would call me with the final lines of Mama, Mama Boonie, Mama, like just, and wouldn't even say hello. It was like a coded message, it was like, hello. So, uh, it's definitely the Spielberg version for me, but I will say I sobbed like a baby watching the new version, like I saw it at a, like a theater in Syracuse, New York.

5:10Guests: I was upstate with my girlfriend. It was that Christmas. Uh, when it came out, when I tell you I just couldn't turn the faucet off, it was, oh man, it was bad. I was, I was like, please don't look at my shirt. When y'all come out, it's just tears all down. It was bad. It was bad. I do like the new movie, but it doesn't hold a candle.

5:29Guests: It doesn't hold a candle. It's just like that Spielberg eye, his use of cinematography, just to tell the overall story, the performances in that movie are like indelible. You'll never forget. You'll never forget the first time you meet Shug Avery in that first movie. You'll never forget like the juke joint scenes.

5:50Guests: You'll never forget like seeing the color purple in the field. When them walking over the, like, you'll never forget those images. And it, I mean, it actually set a record of the most Academy Award nominations without a single win until Spielberg did it again. He actually reset his own record with Empire of the Sun, like, like I think the next year, which is crazy.

6:13KT: Yeah. I don't want to get into conspiracies, but I saw a Whoopi Goldberg interview where she was saying something about the NAACP, but we don't need to talk.

6:21Guests: We don't have to talk about that, even though. Actually, the NAACP is the only people who gave The Wiz an award, funny enough. The Wiz also was nominated for four Academy Awards, lost them all, but Michael Jackson won, uh, an acting performance award, which is like, if any performance gets the nomination or a win in The Wiz, it's, it's that Michael Jackson, Scarecrow performance. But yes, those two movies are like, yeah, sacrosanct. You are correct. We know every line it, I'm, I can watch the movie in my mind, I could turn it on .

6:58Guests: Press pause whenever started up again, like, the references are so pure and like, just always in my mind The Wiz, it's like, uh, so, so The Wiz came out in 1978.

7:12Guests: I wasn't even born in, I was born in 1987. So. was new. It was, it was new to me when it came out, but you know, it's already been a classic by the time it came around to me. The Wiz is like, yeah, it's one of the first movies I ever watched, you know? Uh, and it's one of the first movies I ever like had visceral reactions to like, you know, When they're down in the subway and those monsters come out of the columns.

7:37Guests: Like I ride the subway in New York. I go through Hoyt-Schermerhorn and I don't feel good when I go through there, because I remember them things coming out of the walls and be like, Hey man, if it's too late. Yeah, at night. And I'm walking through Hoyt-Schermerhorn. Like you never know. You never know.

7:54KT: If I can use a, if I can use a weeb reference, I was like, what in the Jujutsu Kaisen's going on right now?

8:00Guests: There you go. There you go. It's that moment. It's scary in the movie. we used to have jokes around the house about like, uh, whenever we were watching, we would try to keep up with it's Toto in a scene.

8:12Guests: Did they keep the scene? Cause it would always be like, you'd have the set piece. And then they would go to the next place and then Toto would be like running up behind them because so you didn't forget that the dog was there and like y'all slick y'all I didn't see what you're doing here. Come on, the Emerald City sequence is like just black beauty black X it's actual black excellence if you want to do a PowerPoint presentation that is the first image you would see on it.

8:36Guests: The colors, the songs like there's some of the best. There's songs that went pop like "Home" actually had a pop run after the fact with Stephanie Mills re-recording it twice. She re-recorded it twice. It was so good. Like it's, it's just so in the, like the Motown of it all. I, you know, I can just like ramble on for days.

9:00Guests: So, I mean, I don't, we don't even think about the fact that it was actually a bomb when it, uh, when it arrived on the scene, sadly, but you know, that's what happens. Sometimes things aren't appreciated in the moments, but I'm glad that it is the cultural touchstone for Black people. I would say it is like the ur text almost for like modern Black people. It's like, it's our handshake, you know? Well, I think it's, it's interesting.

9:31Guests: Cause again, like there's stories about stuff, like It's a Wonderful Life and other films like that, that came out and bombed and then, you know, became cult classics after the fact, I think, you know, cause the Broadway play was a hit and that's why they made a movie out of it is because that was like, you know, a big deal.

9:46Guests: And with this movie, I think. Black people were not going to let this go. You know what I mean? Like this was there's too many people between Diana Ross, Lena Horne, Michael Jackson, Richard Pryor, but also Quincy Jones being involved. You know, all these other things like music. We're going to make this. Yeah.

10:07Guests: Quincy Jones in the in that time in his career, he had like, you know, producing the music that he produced and then making this music. It's like I like to think of artistic heights, you know, like. Michael Jackson's artistic height, you could consider Thriller or maybe Bad, even some people, you know, have different takes on that.

10:27Guests: Uh, but like to see like Quincy Jones and Michael Jackson at their artistic peaks, making something like this, contributing to something like this is like, you don't get that many moments in anyone's career. Yeah, especially because it when it came out in 78. You know, like musicals were, you know, like they weren't at their peak, you know, obviously, but like, you know, quite, yeah, you would, you would get a musical every once in a while.

10:58Guests: But again, like we, there wasn't one for us, you know, like we were still kind of hoping that we were going to get, you know, a little bit of that. And I feel like, you know, especially because that's the thing, right? So like, once you start getting into that age of. All right, we need movies to play on TV. We need movies to be, you know, kind of like these placeholders specifically.

11:21Guests: I mean, the smart thing they did with it was make it a Christmas theme set film so that it could be kind of an annual. So smart. And so like, once that kind of took it, like Black people were like, Yes. Well, that's, that's on the, that's on the list. So every Christmas we're going to play The Wiz, you know what I mean?

11:38Guests: And we're going to watch this movie. It certainly doesn't hurt that there's not a weak song in the whole run. You know, everything is a banger. It certainly doesn't hurt that they for 1978, like this movie looks great. Like they did not skimp out on anything from the costumes to the sets. to, you know, the, the big sweeping choreography moments, like also the sets being like actually like placed in New York City, like they're shooting in also 1978 New York, which is like a different beast than

12:09KT: I was wondering that I was like, how did they like, they must have done it for real. Like, there's no way.

12:16Guests: Yeah. Not everything. But like, like the Emerald City sequence is shot in the world trade center at the time. So they just had the entire,

12:25KT: how about the yellow brick road? Sorry. I'm so sorry. Let's jump around.

12:28Guests: No,

12:30KT: I just mean my ignorance at your landmarks, but there was a bridge. There was a bridge and I had the yellow brick road.

12:38Guests: So that's, that's not real. That's like, that's, yeah, but it's like, but even to that, it's like, It's like one of the few examples in movies where like, it's, it's seamless in a way, like the sets going from like real life sets, like the Emerald City being at the World Trade Center, uh, lobby or like the outdoors, the promenade up to the World Trade Center to like sets that look at a painting of the Empire State Building.

13:08KT: It's

13:09Guests: like, it feels seamless. It feels like it's just a New York experience. Like we're in the subway. We're Down the, we're walking down the blocks. We're walking down Manhattan blocks that might be painted. And we like, you know, covered everything off, but like, it feels authentic in that sense. Well, and again, like, I mean, Sidney Lumet, not, not nobody, like one of the best living New Yorkers of the time.

13:33Guests: Yeah. You know what I mean? So like to get him to do that, I keep, I mean, this is for him. It's right after Dog Day Afternoon, I think. I think it's like the next movie he made. And like, I, every time I see Joel Schumacher's name attached to the screenplay, I'm just like, I always forget, but I'm just like, Oh yeah, he did.

13:51Guests: He did that. He was, he wrote the screenplay, uh, Joel Schumacher of, uh, Batman and Robin, but he gave us the bat nipples and he also gave us The Wiz. Yeah. Like it's, it's so interesting to see that. Dynamic where you've got, you know, two white people, you know, at the, the heart of kind of like the production of it, but then you've got not only just the all black cast, but like a very black movie.

14:16Guests: And again, it is based on a Broadway play. They're, they're not doing this whole cloth out of nothing. They're taking huge swaths of that and like, you know, implementing into this, but, you know, it goes to show cause like, this is, there's scenes in this movie specifically say at the beginning. You know, that just feel like watching black home life, you know, I mean, like watching black families together at the holidays, playing checkers, you know what I mean, and hanging out and even the song, you know, that, uh, Dorothy's "The Feeling That We Have," you know, and like, you know, it gets me every time, you know, kind of makes you tear up because it's just like, these are these kind of small intimate moments that we have that, you know, you want to carry with you.

15:04Guests: Wherever you go. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, it echoes. Yeah, it echoes the feeling like you imagine you're watching the movie at Christmas with your family. You're literally watching a family at Christmas, like, you know, or Thanksgiving. Sorry, but like a crowded around the oven, you know, making the turkey.

15:20Guests: The cousins are in there playing checkers. Like you said, like it feel it feels like home. And that's, that's, that's, it's kind of wild that like, you know, Dorothy's character doesn't feel like she's at home when it's such a like warm and welcoming like scene that they're in in that first part of the movie that shows you how difficult of a like of a want or difficult of a, uh, conflict it is for her.

15:48Guests: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's not a, it's not some fly by night stuff that she's like, no, I got to get out of here. It's more like. Wow. You can't feel at home around that. You must got something really going on inside, you know, to take you to Oz. Well, and I think that's what makes this movie, I think, for me, such an iconic Black film, is that it has nothing to do with racism.

16:13Guests: It has nothing to do with, you know, white people, like, oppressing, or anything like that. It's just, here's Black people. Going through very real human emotions that are universal and relatable to everybody that there's some context in there, right? You can, you can build on some of the context clues of like, maybe why Dorothy feels that way.

16:36Guests: Maybe why, you know, home and community and togetherness is so important. And like some of the other themes of the film, you know, specifically, you know, at the end, right, where Lena Horne is singing the song. about believing in yourself. And then we cut to the, you know, the black children. And like, you know, like there's there it's not subtle.

16:55Guests: I love that. I love that, though. I do. I love that shit. I love it. I'm a sucker for like corny positivity sometimes. But yeah, when she's saying like when she's singing about home and you see like the flashes of the people that she's met like over the course of the journey, like, oh, fuck. Oh, that's what it's about.

17:15Guests: Wow. Yeah, right. Right. And that being together. So I think that's what makes it such a special movie specifically, you know, in the black community and that there's nothing, it's not rebelling, you're not rebelling against like an oppressor or anything like that. You're not like, which is usually I feel like how white people view black collectivism, which is like, there's always, there's always an opposing force.

17:37Guests: And in this movie, it's more of an internal struggle. It's like, I don't see myself in this world, this together, this togetherness and no going through Oz. You're like, you met people along the journey like you would in life and they showed you how strong you were. And because of that, now you're able to find your way back home. It's fucking like, it's metatextual, you know, it's, it's, it's simple, but it is complex. I love the.

18:05KT: Thank

18:06Guests: you. Oh, just just briefly, but and the meta textual on top of all of that is that it's taking the very American Midwestern classic Wizard of Oz framework and reworking it into a very black Harlem situation.

18:21Guests: So, like, On top of all of that, like one of the most American apple pie kind of things you could do, you know, Wizard of Oz, you know, this big movie that I think it's not a white film, you know, like it is, it's American film, uh, but like it is one of those movies that I think when you, you know, Like Cameron said, every, uh, Oscars ceremony, there's the Wizard of Oz, there's the black and white to color.

18:49Guests: There's, you always show, you always show that clip of Judy Garland opening the door into the Technicolor world. Yeah. You know, so it's such a quintessential hallmark, landmark film and to take it and just make it into A thing about black community and togetherness and family is like, that's a whole other statement on top of all of the things that the movie is already talking about.

19:15KT: we're going to get into the themes and I, I don't want to be a Drew Swanson, which is a Family Guy reference, like just making things sad all the time. But like, I know there's complexity to like family dynamics and that sort of thing, but I do like, so culturally, I understand that this, it means a lot for black people.

19:32KT: And I understand that, but like, even just the fact that we can be like, oh, this family is happy. And why isn't she happy? Maybe it's just my upbringing. I'm like. There are things to be unhappy about, and that sort of thing. But, uh, I love that we've talked about the beef, but if you want, we can talk about it briefly if you want to get straight into The Wiz, but the parallels that were referenced.

19:54KT: in the beef is again at the start of Euphoria. Everything they say about me is a phony, I'm a phony. And I also wrote down some lines while it was happening in the film, but I feel like Cameron could just rattle them off anyway. But there, there's like that whole scene, that we can talk about, but I also want to mention this is also in Euphoria. I believe got a Benjamin and a Jackson all in my house. Like I'm Joe. Okay. Cause it's referencing

20:18Guests: family, uh, Michael Jackson's parents.

20:21KT: Yes. So, yeah. So is there, is there anything you want to say we have already, but like succinctly that connects with The Wiz. As in the film or the Wiz, the character?

20:35Guests: Oh, uh, yeah, it's interesting, right? You have, Richard Pryor, which is like, not a, that's not a half ass casting right there. That is a full, full, that is a full thought, right? Because you have this guy who's like, he's the king of black comedy. He is, he's, he's the guy at this point, 1978. So Eddie Murphy hasn't even come along yet, right?

21:01Guests: He's not even here yet. And you have, uh, somebody who we can all look up to at that point. We could all look up to him and be like, wow, he's, he's funny, charismatic. He's all these things that the wizard probably was to the, you know, people of Oz. And then when they see him, when, uh, Dorothy and all the, you know, and, and Scarecrow and Lion, Tin Man when they finally meet him.

21:25Guests: He's that fiery head. He's like a fiery silver head Which is like and I forget i'm like, uh, i'm a little loose, but i'm see i've seen it recently in culture Oh wait, katrina did it for his tour. He put uh, he was he made a giant head of himself as the Wiz head and that was like what he would do on tour.

21:45Guests: but like that, I felt like that's a little bit of like how Drake existed in American culture and in like rap culture. He was like this big fiery head. He was like, he's the big guy. He's the big silver, you know, like we all look up to this man who tells us the rules and tells us how to like, you know, operate. In rap culture,

22:09KT: yet

22:10Guests: we find out he's just a little old man in pajama pants in a robe that just happened to end up here, right?

22:18KT: He

22:18Guests: flew on his, he flew on his, uh, hot air balloon and ended up in Oz and decided to tell us how to run stuff. Drake just like happened to, you know, Degrassi a little bit, but then he flew up in that hot air balloon, his big ass head and flew over here to America and tried to tell us how to rap, tried to tell us.

22:37Guests: How to do an American art form, which is wild shit, you know, and then to see him be like unmasked, that's the real joy or that's another, I wouldn't say that's the real joy because I would say that togetherness is the real joy. Which is what we find at the end of The Wiz, right? We find actual togetherness.

22:58Guests: We find actual family, but like to be unmasked and to see that he's actually a fake, he's actually a phony, he ain't shit, is like, that feels great. That feels, that feels great, you know? To find out that the guy that sent us on a journey to go. kill it, kill his enemies was the fake all along. That's like, man, that's great.

23:20Guests: Well, and I think the thing, you know, so with the parallels, it's interesting because what, what ultimately happens to Richard Pryor's character in the movie. Is, you know, at first again, he's the Wiz, is he's doing all the big blustery stuff that when they come in, you know, unmask him and they see him, uh, you know, he, he says the line in Euphoria, like almost immediately, you know, every, everything they say about me is true. I'm a fake, I'm a phony.

23:52Guests: You know, but after, you know, after Lena Horne comes on and tells everybody, you know, hey, it's all inside of you, you know, it's always been inside of you, you know, he comes back up to Dorothy and he's like, hey, you know, could you do something for me? And she's like, for me, Whatever you're about to ask me, I, I can't do that.

24:12Guests: You know, you have to do it. You have to find it within yourself. And his reaction to that is to slink back and, and basically reject that idea of that, like, that's, that's too scary. That's too much for me. I can't do that. I can't look back into the darkness. And I feel like that's what's about to happen to Drake, right? Like Kendrick has given him

24:40KT: I don't think he'll go away.

24:42Guests: Oh, no, I think I think he will for the rest of this year, probably because

24:45KT: he'll have to not because I want to.

24:48Guests: Yeah, right.

24:49KT: But I think

24:49Guests: also the Sexyy Red didn't drop the Sexyy Red thing didn't drop the long one. Delilah didn't hit. None of this shit is hitting because everybody is too busy blasting "Not Like Us." None of the barbecue, but but Kendrick has given him an opportunity because the only flip out of this and it's not going to salvage anything or save anything as much as it's just going to save face as for him to Do what Kendrick has suggested he do, I mean, maybe do the ayahuasca, but you know, uh, generally to like self reflect and deconstruct, right?

25:28Guests: You know, and again, that's what Dorothy is asking the Wiz to do. It's, it's, you know, whatever, whatever this, this favor you need from me, whatever this journey you want me to go on, whatever this thing that needs to be done, you need to do that. You need to find it within yourself, to look within yourself, to get to wherever you're trying to get to.

25:47Guests: And I think Drake has rejected that notion as well, in terms of, you know, that invitation to, hey, you know, you can, because look, I mean, again, "Meet the Grahams" is devastating as it is, right? As, as, as, as awful as it is. Kendrick is again, at that final verse, as much as he's deconstructing it, he's saying, I'm giving you, this is real advice from me.

26:07Guests: Yeah, you know, this is I'm I'm saying this to you, man to man, fuck rap, fuck Kendrick Lamar, fuck Drake, fuck like all I I'm speaking to you and I'm telling you the way forward because you look, I made a whole album about, you know, how it was unfaithful to my fiance, how, you know, I've been having all these issues and I went to therapy and I broke it down.

26:30Guests: You know, he said therapy to start, you know, like you can start there. Like, but I broke myself down. My morality's dust, I lack in trust, you know what I mean? Like, all of the stuff he was talking about in Count Me Out, you know, where he, he built himself back up again, right? Like, it's not easy. And you can see that's basically what the Wiz is balking at, is like, that sounds

26:53KT: Yeah.

26:54Guests: That sounds like a lot of work to do, like work.

26:57KT: Dorothy also says you'll never find it in the safety of this room. And I think that goes back to what we were saying about you'll never find it in the comfort of a studio. Like you'll never really, you're never really, um, gaining XP in here. You're kind of just doing the same,

27:12Guests: you're kind

27:13KT: of just doing the same shit in here. But yeah, I mean, that's

27:16Guests: what he does. He like stays in his little mansion and posts. Posts videos from the mansion and from the pool. Talk about like, I got the friends here. I got the crew here. Crodies. I got the crodies here. Like, shut up! You ain't got nobody behind you. That pool is empty and your dog is pooping on the side. Like, shut up.

27:34KT: But there was a lamenting, that Richard Pryor, the Wiz, had in that scene and it was, it was an earnestness that I don't, I personally don't think we will see maybe for some time to come, with Aubrey Graham, where he says, please don't go. I'm like, I'm making fun of him. please don't go. I live here all alone in terror that someone will find out I'm a fraud. You can be crazy. Call me names. Like he's like, Just stay, just stay. Yeah, it's

28:04Guests: really heartbreaking. It's really heartbreaking. I mean, Richard Pryor was like, we didn't have him in too many movies, but come on, the guy was like a pro and he really tapped in. Well, because there's, I mean, unfortunately, there are parallels to his actual life. You know, within the role where, you know, he was also somebody who had a lot of personal demons and a lot of things he was trying to work through, um, and I'm sure he felt some connection to the role in that where fame is, is, is that room.

28:39Guests: That he's talking about, you know, like if you are empty room with the, with the tiny little table and the 10 cans of food on

28:45KT: the floor,

28:45Guests: you know, and you're stuck here and it's, and it does, there is some safety to it, you know what I mean? Uh, but there's that vulnerability when those walls start to come down and you invite other people in, you know, you have to make space for other people.

29:02Guests: You have to, you have to let other people. Not even just like be a part of your life, but make space within yourself for them. Right. Like it can't be all about you. It can't be you as the individual, you know, kind of ruling, you know, everybody from above on high, but seeing yourself as an equal and part of a larger group and community, and again, Drake's not able to do that.

29:27Guests: The Wiz is not able to do that, you know, but that's what sets Dorothy free. That's what sets everybody else in the movie free is that they're able to grow alongside each other and see each other as not simply just, uh, you know, things to support you along the way, you know, kind of, you know, crutches to lean on, but actual friends, actual family, actual people who are close to you, who, you know, you can't, cause that's what, that's what her aunt is telling her.

29:54Guests: She's like. We'll always be here. Home will always be here. Like, you know, if you, if you go, you know, like you can always come back, you know, there's no shame in having to come back home and, you know, to the people that love you. Like, we're not going to think of you any differently or treat you any differently if you, you know, go out, but you have to go out.

30:16Guests: You have to go explore, right? There comes a point where you have to do that. And like, you know, no matter how far away you are from us, you know, we're always around the corner. We're always right here. Right. And so I think for Drake and for the Wiz, you know, there is a lot of parallels. And on top of all of that, it's a black ass movie.

30:36Guests: And I think that's just another shot. You know, yeah, you know, you know, I mean, you know, that's real. You'll never, you'll never be a part of this. You'll never. This is not you. This you didn't grow up watching The Wiz. You grew up watching Annie or whatever the fuck else you were watching in Toronto. This is what we do. You know,

30:56KT: we get down. The Scarecrow, Michael Jackson, but Scarecrow, uh, success, fame and fortune, which is such a parallel to because, Kendrick also had that line in like that. You think the money, the pound, the fame will make you go away. And he like, it's a running theme and a lot of, Kendrick's lines, but yeah, success, fame and fortune, they're all illusions. All that is real is the friendship that two can share.

31:20Guests: Who said that?

31:21KT: Scarecrow, but it was

31:23Guests: also Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're no, no, 100%. Who said that? I did.

31:30KT: Yeah, so beautiful. But it was like, it was that, that was his moment of like character development. Right. but I, I thought that was interesting. I'm trying to remember all the other lines in Kendrick's songs, but it talks about all the money, the power and respect. Right.

31:44Guests: Yeah. but The last one's better.

31:46KT: Exactly. I think that draws a lot of parallels. And I think the both of you so poetically and so beautifully wove that into the film. Like it just melded so nicely, but we can talk about the film now specifically, and this is where you can kick me out of my own podcast. Because yes, this is the first time. It was the first time I've watched The Wiz, but also I've never watched.

32:11Guests: Yes, well, I want to hear what you got to say about I want to hear what you thought about it. This is your first time. I've seen this thing 30 times. I got the DVD. I'm probably going to upgrade to the Blu-ray.

32:19Guests: Like I, I want to, I want to know what you really thought. Yeah. I think also what we're curious about, because I mean, this is, I think me and Cameron are talking about this too. When I mentioned that you hadn't seen this before is like, In Australia, and I guess in the UK at large, like, is the Wizard of Oz itself a thing that is cultural?

32:43Guests: A touchstone, the way it is here. And then on top of that, is The Wiz something that is like, you know, because I understand why it means something over here, but I can also see why You know, in other, in other spaces, it may not necessarily hold the same weight.

33:00KT: Yeah. Is that,

33:01Guests: but.

33:03KT: So to answer your question, the, so the Wizard of Oz is like a big cultural phenomenon, like globally. So like, people know about it. I've obviously, like, it's like Star Wars. Like I don't need to watch, uh, I don't know if you, uh, Jessica Walter. Rest in peace. Uh, but she's like, go, here's 5. Go and watch a Star War. Uh, like I don't need to watch Star Wars to get the references and Wizard of Oz is the same thing.

33:27KT: So culturally, yes. Like you said, it wasn't a white movie, but they all look white to me. But yeah, a lot of people know about Wizard of Oz. I just, I guess I just never. Watched it. And then I guess, cause of my upbringing being Mormon, but like, I think just once you get to a point where you're old enough to watch movies, I just never watched Wizard of Oz.

33:46KT: So I guess the points are that like The Wiz is my Wizard of Oz. I'm not going to go like shout out to Judy Garland. I'm just not going to watch. Maybe, maybe if I have time when Drake's there too, after all his exercise, you know? but yeah, so I've never watched like the OG. Wizard of Oz, watching The Wiz, like, I was like, I feel like this pressure, especially knowing how much you love it, Cameron.

34:11KT: I was like, I hope, I hope I love this one. Cause I don't have the ability to be like, Ooh, I like it. And I don't like it sort of thing. Yeah. Right. Right. But yeah, overall, like I really enjoyed it. I will say, you know, even in the IMDb trivia, like Diana Ross was really like pushing to have this role. And I believe she was in her thirties, so they had to compromise the role to be like a 24 year old teacher as opposed to like a 15 year old.

34:41KT: So I would say even if I hadn't have read that trivia, I still would have, you know, And again, maybe it's just people living different lives. But at the age of 24, I was already having to look after myself. Like I was very independent. so I was a bit confused at that, the fact that, I was, I don't even know where they were talking, but I'm assuming even when she got to, was it Munchkinland? She seemed a bit scared of Munchkinland. I was like, how far have you ventured my love?

35:12Guests: Munchkinland is a little scary when they come out of the graffiti, like not on. But

35:18KT: I was like, is that just her? Like, cause I think my problem is I have a, like I have a problem, not a problem, but I, I tend to like ground things all the time, like even watching like House of the Dragon, I'm like, Oh, this like runs through the trauma of the Targaryens. Like I'm always like grounding shit. So I was like, Oh, like, where is she in America in this point in time? But anyway, I just, at 24 years old, I was like, Queen pick your crown up like yeah, I mean if

35:46Guests: she had like a touch of like agoraphobia phobia or something like that Or it's just kind of like she's just No that I mean, I think it was just she was a late bloomer But if it was yeah, if it was something along those lines where it was like, oh like there's a reason why she is leave home and get out, you know, cause like, uh, you know, 78 different time, you know, certainly people may have lived with families longer.

36:17Guests: And again, the fact that she's living with her aunt and not say her parents or, you know, like, yeah, maybe speaks to some kind of. you know, something happening in her childhood where they're not around anymore, and she might be, you know, a bit attached to her, her aunt and her uncle. but yeah, I mean, that again, like you're saying, I think it's more just the Diana Ross's thirties of it all, where they had to figure out a way to like, just let's spin that.

36:44Guests: Don't think about it too much. Just like, well, She's, she's going to Oz, you know, worry about it on that after the fact. No, she, she went to Oz cause Berry Gordy said she can go to Oz. We all know what happened there. Yep.

36:58KT: But I think it's like, um, if it's like Miyazaki Spirited Away, like I maybe, or maybe that's cause it's like fully fantasy and maybe it's cause Chihiro was like younger as well.

37:10KT: Like I could tap into this misfits along the way and like trying to find your way Yeah. back home, but her being a 24 year old and having like a modern setting, I, I think it was a me thing. Like I just couldn't divorce the fact that like, she's 24 years old and she's having a 15 year old equivalent, as far as I understand, the Wizard of Oz, like coming of age.

37:32KT: moment. And that's not a knock on like, if you're 24 and you're still living with your family, it's not even that. It's just like, cause again, there's like, there's a lot of things that like, cause this is how I felt watching Juice. Cause I was like, I was like, Oh, but you know, like Bishop had the notes. He's like, well, that's not in the film.

37:48KT: You're just putting it in there. And I'm like, okay, fine. But I think once I realized that Yes, the framework is Wizard of Oz, even though I don't have the reference for it. Once I just realized that I can just tap into, cause obviously the music is the blood, like it's, it's the lifeblood of this film and the production of it and the set design.

38:08KT: I was like, okay, I'm good. I'm great. I think anytime they try to like do. This is a serious story about her. I was like, well, like I obviously Diana, obviously in loving, enjoyed her singing, but if it was like talking about that sort of storyline, everything else, I was having a good time. Tin Man and the oil down his spine.

38:29KT: I'm sure there's some nasty nasty going on. I'm having a good time. So I was, I was enjoying that once I just, tapped into like what they were creating, like the team, the cast, what everyone was bringing to the table, I was tapped in. But when it was like that sort of like template, I wasn't really in. Does that make sense?

38:54Guests: Okay. It does. We're going to, we're going to give you the Wiz quiz right now. So we need, we need three things from you. We need your favorite song. We need your favorite character and we need your favorite scene.

39:07KT: Yeah. Okay. I need my notes. I, I made notes. what, what was her name? The, the wicked witch, the one near the end. She said, she said, don't bring me no bad news. If you're going to bring me something, bring me something I can use. Suffering is food for thought. And I was like, I like that. That's, that's me. I don't know what the song was called, though.

39:31Guests: No bad news. Don't nobody bring me no bad news.

39:34KT: Oh, well, there you

39:35Guests: go.

39:36KT: favorite song, favorite what? Sorry?

39:38Guests: Favorite character. Favorite character.

39:41KT: Okay, I would say, I would say Tin Man only because you have Diana Ross, you have Michael Jackson in the scene and he was able to hold his own where, like in that scene and in his song and obviously the oil down his spine, I've got some spicy things to add to Oti and I's rotation now.

40:00Guests: In that posterior position.

40:02KT: Oh yeah. Yeah. fantasies were made and created for sure. And he had

40:07Guests: the girls, he had the girlies too. Yeah, he had the, the girly chorus behind him. I mean, a lot of this movie scared me, honestly, when I think back on it, I'm just like, all these people who are like standing in the walls and like, just like ready to pop out at any time. Yeah, their faces are like popping out. Sometimes you gotta pop out, Cam. Sometimes you gotta pop out and show niggas, you know?

40:29KT: But I think Tin Man, cause I, obviously they were like, cause I didn't, I didn't really know him before. Uh, the actor that did,

40:36Guests: Oh, he was, uh, uh, he was like a mainstay on television. I think Newlywed Game and, uh, the original Hollywood Squares and stuff like that. He was like one of those, like, and he was on a Flip Wilson Show. Uh, he was like one of those. All types of entertainers, like singing, dancing, he could do it all. Literally his scene in The Wiz is, uh, uh, is like all of his talents all in one. So this is, it was like a perfect moment for him a little bit.

41:06KT: But yeah, so I just like. I just, I think it was because I wasn't expecting to enjoy him so much. there's not much amusement in the closing of an amusement park. That could be like the opening line, Todd Phillips, Joker, like right there. So I was like, man, that's some like somber shit there. This

41:25Guests: whole movie is filled with that low key somber, like, what did you say? God,

41:31KT: I thought we were all just like singing and dancing around. My kids

41:35Guests: are listening.

41:38KT: What was the last one? Sorry.

41:40Guests: Favorite scene.

41:41KT: It's gotta be the last scene. I think, um, no, the last thing was like Richard Pryor or whatever that scene was.

41:50KT: The Richard Pryor scene. because I don't have that nostalgic tip. I don't have that cultural tip. either. So I think even, uh, in my grown sad big age, like that was something I could like tether myself to and to have those sort of themes or like everyone wants that ability to explore and grow. But that comfortability of what we know, even if it isn't, you know, as great as how we want our lives to be or how we see ourselves to be.

42:18KT: Like, I really, I really appreciate that rap beef aside. Like I really liked that scene. Like if we're going to get into the emotions, like that's also with like the floating faces as well.

42:29Guests: Yeah. but I really, it hits so hard. It hits so good though.

42:36KT: But yes, that's, that's, uh, you guys going to quiz yourselves.

42:39Guests: Uh, yeah, I can go. Yeah, Jordan, you gotta put, you gotta put yourself first. Uh, favorite character, it's between Scarecrow and the Lion. Uh, I think I like them both equally.

42:50KT: I like the Lion too, actually.

42:51Guests: Yeah, I like Lion. I mean, Michael, it's interesting because we have Michael Jackson. Like, this is, this is, he's, he's getting there, right?

43:01Guests: I mean, he's still Jackson 5 Michael Jackson. He's starting to become Michael Jackson, Michael Jackson at this point. And this is the transition point, I would say. And so, like, you know, he's not, he's not somebody that you would have ever Thought about being in the movie, you know, just because I didn't think he could act, but it's just like he was such a musician, like he was just such a he just like, why would he ever pivot into something else?

43:29Guests: but he, he feels so natural and there's something about his performance, the vulnerability to it that I think is, is underrated in the sense of like, you know, I don't know, I don't know where he's pulling it from. The man lived a life, but he, uh, you know, you can really tell there is a longing, you know, that he brings to the character, not necessarily simply just, you know, for the brain and for the knowledge, but like being around the others, right?

43:57Guests: Like, you know, he is one of the catalysts and, you know, relating it back to the original Wizard of Oz, like, The Scarecrow is the first one that Dorothy meets, and it's kind of, you know, the one that, that propels her down the yellow brick road and they, you know, start to accumulate more friends. But like in this one too, you know, where you see him, when you see him up on the pole and that's tying into my, like, I don't know, something about "You Can't Win."

44:23Guests: It's just such, it's such a banger. You know, like it comes in at just the right time in the movie where there had been some other songs and like, none of the songs preceding it are bad, but like, no, this is the one that you're just like, Whoa, you know, and like all the crows, you know, everything that's going on. Like it's, it's

44:46KT: if I, if I can, if I can make a timely reference, I think one of the crows were Birdman because he said, reading is a waste of time.

44:57Guests: Kind of back to Drake, yeah. Uh, so I think, yeah, but the Lion also, you know, like, I just love his, his story and I think my favorite scene is probably when we first get to the city of Oz. And the, you know, the whole color, uh, montage, just because it's like, that's that's filmmaking that cinema, that's Afrofuturism.

45:21Guests: And like, that's all the things wrapped into one. Like, I love watching that scene so much. But one of the things that always gets me is when they're in the subway and they're running away and the Cowardly Lion runs and he he's like, Stops and he looks at his friends and he makes that decision to run back, even though he's scared, even though he's terrified, even though, you know, and he, but like systematically one by one, you know, saves everybody.

45:45Guests: Um, you can feel it. It's like, it's palpable when he's like whipping the heads off the trash can. He's like, yeah, I'll do it. I did it. You're actually like rooting for him to keep going. You're like, yeah, man. Yeah. Uh, so yeah, those would be my, my three. All right, Cam, you're on the spot. I've never done this, actually.

46:08Guests: I've never thought about this. favorite song? Okay, I think this might be my favorite song in the show. So that's why it's like, I think it's, it's fine in the movie. I just think it's like a great song, though. It's, uh, "Be a Lion." And they're all like, They're all poppied out, you know, they got drugged up at the poppy place and then, uh, on the, on the roof of the building, which is like a great rooftop scene.

46:34Guests: You gotta have a rooftop scene if you're in New York. And, you know, they're like, you know, I don't, I don't know if I can even do this no more. We like, we've gotten even so far, we haven't even made it to Oz yet. We're tired, you know, and then like the, the way the song is built, like, it's just like this, It's like this lullaby at first, and then it turns into this like, triumphant harmonies, like, it's songwriting at its best, it's like a great, uh, kind of like in musicals, you know, I studied musical theatre, so like, you do this thing, you always gotta end act one with a banger, so then you come back for act two, and you're like, yeah, let's go, let's keep going, and it feels like this great, like, triumphant moment for all four of them, when they're all like, yeah, like, it's great.

47:22Guests: It's great. We can do it. We actually can do it. We've gotten as far as tough it out, you know, and then right then the doors though, the last part of the road opens up and they're like, there it is. Let's do it. You know, I just love the crap out of that song. And I recently actually just saw the, There's a revival on Broadway of the RIP of The Wiz right now and go to Spotify, right?

47:45Guests: Avery Wilson. Oh, that man does a backflip every night. He does a backflip in the show. And this is, well now

47:54KT: I, I, I need to go and see it now. So you need to buy, fly,

47:58Guests: come over to America. Oh, sorry. I'm going, I'm

48:00KT: flying to see you two and then I'm going to.

48:02Guests: Exactly. Exactly. We'll, we'll all go to New York together. Yeah. I would love it. I would love nothing more, but like the way go to. Your streaming service, I think it's on YouTube to their harmonies when they sing this song butter actual like it's a four part harmony and it's so good on this song. Now, this is the line to that. Amber Ruffin wrote the book to this, right?

48:28Guests: Am I right? And Amber Ruffin wrote the contributed to the book. It's basically the same book, but like she added up like a lot. You can tell they did a little bit of upgrading. There's a joke about, uh, like rent in this economy. Like, yeah, it's pretty rough, but yeah, it's, it's good. It's real good stuff. It's a good, it's a good revival too. so "Be a Lion"'s my favorite song.

48:53Guests: I would say favorite character. It's tough. It's really tough for me. I think the first person that I gravitate to is Scarecrow. He's just like it's such a great performance. It's like Michael Jackson being like full Michael Jackson. You can see him just like being himself and like in the role too.

49:10Guests: It feels so good to see him do that. I think beside that it's like Tin Man. I think Tin Man is like the coolest performance. Like when you meet him, he's so cool. The tap dance. Like that whole song and even his sad song, uh, what would I do if I can't, if I could feel like, it's like, Oh man, you, you had me dancing and now you got me crying,

49:31KT: bro. Nobody, nobody home in Soulville.

49:34Guests: Yeah. Oh, nobody home in Soulville. Love it. Is it

49:41KT: allowed? Is it okay? Like the level of production. In music that was in this film, like, is that okay to have because I don't think

49:52Guests: so because we haven't gotten it again.

49:55KT: I'm just like, because I, I, I am, I don't know in this clip, but I am partial to like the Bad Boys. I always think of like the Bad Boys franchises having like banger soundtracks also Fast and the Furious is a lot of fun as well, but that's not this. This is proper. Like in and of itself, cinema, before you even talk about putting it into a set design and even Emerald City and

50:20Guests: a gorgeous,

50:21KT: beautiful, Oh, we got to show and tell,

50:24Guests: we

50:24KT: got

50:24Guests: the, we got the vinyl right here, baby. We got the vinyl, two discs. But I think that's the thing that like this, what, what carries you through is, you know, so many great performances. That's nice.

50:42KT: Wow. Look at that

50:43Guests: gatefold. That's

50:43KT: so

50:44Guests: beautiful.

50:45KT: Do you, would you mind taking a photo so I can like, credit you on the socials and be like, he is about it, about it.

50:53Guests: About that, like the DVD, the DVD is in, in my living room, but it's probably gonna get upgraded to the Blu-ray. Wow. We need a, we need a Criterion Wiz, uh, at some point. You know what? I've been waiting to do this on our podcast, but I'm saying, like, black films that need to be in the Criterion Collection, like, they got some of the classics, like, they got Do the Right Thing, they got, uh, they don't even got Moonlight in there, but they did just do Underground Railroad, though, I'm gonna pick that up.

51:19Guests: They did the whole Underground Railroad series, but there needs to be, there are black films out there that are not like touched on in the canon and they need to do that. And The Wiz, they need to do a 4K, get the whole thing. I mean, Quincy Jones talking on the soundtrack, put the soundtrack discs in that motherfucker, like do it for real, you know? Yes. But we can again, another podcast.

51:42Guests: So I will say this, this seems like a good point to bring up my controversial Wiz take, uh, and then, uh, I feel like we are, we are ripe for a remake of The Wiz. I feel like there are, so here's the rules to remake, right? Because I feel like times, wait. Do you agree, Cameron?

52:02KT: Wait, wait, wait. Sorry. I Do you agree? I,

52:05Guests: I, I, it's tough. Hear me out. Hear me out. I'm dividing him out. I'll hear him out, but it's tough.

52:09KT: I'll allow it.

52:13Guests: So yeah, the rules for a remake are, you know, it's, we're not, we're not doing the Disney thing where we just say, Hey, did you like that?

52:20Guests: We're going to do it again. Again. No. So it's, we're not, it's not different. It's the same thing. Just modern. It looks modern. It looks new. But also, you know, there's the, there's the, we didn't do it right the first time, you know, so we're going to like change all of these things and like really fundamentally get away from, you know, like we don't need to update it in that way, but I think it is such a ripe story.

52:49Guests: And there are things that I think we could certainly modernize and certainly, You know, there's, there's additive stuff, right? Like you're talking about with Amber Ruffin, adding things to the book. Like, I don't, I personally do not believe that there is such a thing as something so perfect that it cannot be improved. It cannot be added upon. It could not have.

53:10KT: That is a hot take.

53:12Guests: A little, you know? Yeah.

53:14KT: Do you not give many perfect scores to films? Sorry, I'm distracting from you. Well, I'm not,

53:19Guests: I'm not saying that there are things that are perfect or that I believe to be, uh, you know, great, but it's like, That doesn't mean that it's, it's untouchable, that you can never, you know, like,

53:30KT: do a little

53:31Guests: something extra to it, especially as time goes on, right? Because like, over, over the years, I think one of the things that we can add to The Wiz, because it is, it's supposed to be about community and like, Having all of us in there. And so like, there are ways that we could add more of us, make it a more inclusive film, have all of us in the movie. Right. And so here's, so I'll break it down for you, Cameron, and you can give me the thumbs up or the thumbs down.

54:02Guests: I will. Here's my, here's my Wiz remake cast. Okay. First of all, just to set it off and we're going to see how you feel about this directing it is Terrence Nance, right? I think everything that he did with, uh, Random Acts of Flyness, like the musical elements of that, uh, specifically like that Peter Pan one and like some of the other ones, like I think he could do that.

54:29Guests: I think he could, I think he could, he could bring that out. And just generally his visual aesthetic, right? Like thinking about thinking about the, uh, the, the colors sequence, but also thinking about the Munchkin sequence and thinking about the Evillene sequence. Like, I think there's cool things that he could do there that could really like accentuate and bring stuff out.

54:51Guests: OK, so that's that's who's directing it, possibly writing it. Other people, you know, maybe up for that, we'll see. But again, it's an adaption, so it's not necessarily like from whole cloth. It's going to be, it's going to be the woods, right? Yeah. For Dorothy, her,

55:11KT: I think,

55:14Guests: I think H.E.R. could be a good Dorothy because she's got the vocals. She's got the vocals. It was in The Color Purple.

55:20KT: Did you see? She was in The Color Purple. She can

55:21Guests: sort of act. She actually like. That's what I'm saying. She's good. Diana Ross did not kill it, you know, in the way that it's like nobody could ever replace Diana Ross's Dorothy. It's like, I think H.E.R. could do it.

55:34Guests: The other option, the only reason I didn't go with Janelle Monáe is like, she's done so much, you know what I mean? And it's getting into, it's getting into Jennifer Hudson's territory where it's just like. There's other women who can sing, like Jennifer Hudson got so many of those after Dreamgirls. It was just like, why not Jennifer Hudson?

55:53Guests: And it's like, I mean, why not? Like, I like her, but it's also like, there's other people. Yeah, there's other people. I like the idea of her though. That's, that's, that's a good one. Okay, so here's where we're, here's where we're going to get. Yeah, I see as a Scarecrow, the problem with the Scarecrow is that replacing Michael Jackson is not only a tall order, but like it requires so much, you know, in terms of what you're bringing to the performance.

56:23Guests: Right. So I don't think you're going to, I think you're going to have to sacrifice something right in an ideal world because I don't necessarily believe that age factors into it. you know, like it would be a younger person. I do have a younger option. The obvious choice is Usher. Right. In terms of like somebody who can do all of those things, right? Like you could have Usher as the Scarecrow. I thought you

56:50KT: said Janelle Monáe's in everything. Oh, you mean acting wise?

56:54Guests: Yeah. Usher was in The Faculty. I love it. I love it. It's been a minute. so I think Usher could do it. You know what I mean? I don't know. If you're looking for somebody to just, a Michael Jackson equivalent, All the things. My dark horse pick, and I think KT might, might be with me on this one, would be Moses Sumney as the Scarecrow.

57:23KT: He

57:24Guests: has the vocal, the vocals, got it. You know what I mean? That's not even a question. The visuals. Recently, With the vintage video and some of the other videos, he has shown the choreography. He is a good dancer.

57:40Guests: He is not a great dancer. He is not on the level of any of those people, but I think he could do enough. You know, that he could kind of give you the choreography, he could do the core, whatever the choreography for the, for the role he could do, you know, I mean, Michael Jackson obviously was adding to the choreography.

58:00Guests: He was not simply doing the choreography. There was a couple spins in there. He's adding to it, and I don't know if Moses is going to do that, but I feel like Moses could, because what I think Usher cannot do that I think Moses could do is the vulnerability of the character. I don't know if Usher has that level of vulnerability acting wise. You do need that. I think Moses could give you that emotionality in there.

58:31Guests: I didn't see the Color Purple revival, so you can tell me because I, I don't, I don't know how good of a singer he is, but Colman Domingo, I think as a, do you think he could pull that off? I definitely, I think Colman Domingo would definitely just be in this movie.

58:53KT: Did he sing? I can't remember. And then you were Color Purple.

58:57Guests: He does not. He does not. They got rid of his song. They got rid of the song that he would have had.

59:02KT: Yeah, I didn't think he That's

59:03Guests: why I don't know if he's a singer. So, uh, he, he is. He, he Uh, Passing Strange. The Broadway show from 2000 oh nine maybe. Okay. It came out the same year. as Lin-Manuel Miranda's In the Heights, so it got eclipsed, but he was, I saw that performance and he was mind blowing.

59:26Guests: He's mind. Okay. That show you should save. It's actually, yeah. Uh, and shout out if anybody you know is a DVD digger. But there's a DVD of the performance that Spike Lee recorded from their final performance on Broadway, and he turned it into a movie, so definitely check that out. OK, so are you with me so far with what the casting I'm with you?

59:50Guests: Uh, I might be a little apprehensive to Usher. I think is the one room like, but I think everybody else he made a good case. The Lion, Tituss. Oh, definitely. There's no question. There's no question that that he should have did it on Broadway. I don't, but he was writing his own musical, so that's fair.

60:14KT: I always think of Tituss. I don't know. if you guys love Twilight is probably not as much as I do. I was like deep in Twilight, but, Tituss has a video of like, why'd they have to do that to the baby? Didn't have to be that way. Oh yeah. I see. Found another way.

60:34Guests: He's funny. I love him.

60:36KT: Love.

60:37Guests: And he would have been, he would have been great as the Lion. Yeah, sure. The Wiz, here's where we're going to get. We're going to really take a swing here. Zack Fox as the Wiz. What are you doing, man? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? I like it. It's, it's stupid, but I like it. I think he could do it. He's funny though.

61:06KT: I

61:08Guests: think he's got the comedic chops. I don't know about the dramatic chops. Maybe, he could surprise me. I think he's got the range to really give you both. And there, because I think, again, the comedic parts, the parts that he's got to pull up. And that's the that's the incredible thing about Richard Pryor's performance. He ain't really in the movie. Yeah. You know, he's like a omnipresence

61:32KT: type of character.

61:33Guests: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, when he when he is finally on screen in the movie is when he finally gives, you know, that full performance. But like before then, he's just he's either a voice or he's in that head or, you know what I mean?

61:46Guests: But like. He's got maybe 10 minutes at most of actual on screen time, you know? Less than what we've been saying, but yeah. Right. So I, again, taking the swing, Zack Fox, I don't know, but I think we could do that. Um, Ever, Evillene, I think there's gotta be somebody from Drag Race. Right. That you could throw in there.

62:13Guests: Oh, yeah. RuPaul, do it! RuPaul had a record out. Well, that's what I'm saying. Like, RuPaul. RuPaul makes music. But, I, yeah, I mean, but just, just somebody from there that could, you know, cause I, I haven't seen Laverne Cox in a long time, but. Oh. Uh, maybe, you know, I would love to see like RuPaul do "Don't Nobody Bring Me No Bad News." Like I would pay money if she ended up in the revival right now. I would pay money. Yeah. To see it again with her.

62:43KT: There you go. You've got your automatic green light for funding, Jordan. Just on that, on that condition, RuPaul's

62:50Guests: Evillene, get me in there. And then, uh, for the Good Witch, Chaka Khan. Yeah, Chaka Khan, Chaka Khan back then. Well, it's got to be because that's the thing. I mean, like the the Lena Horne at that time was obviously an elder statesman, an elder in the community. But she still had the voice and the command. You know. Well, you know who it is in the revival currently, right? No. Who is it? It's Deborah Cox. Oh, okay. Because this is, this is where you, yeah.

63:29Guests: Wow. This is where you would put Jennifer Hudson, right? This is, this is, this is where you would Yeah. Yeah. Would cast, but I would, I would. You could do Deborah Cox. You could do somebody like that. I would love to see her in a movie. There's options. You could do Deborah Cox. You could go to Yolanda Adams. You could get, I mean, just somebody who's got that voice. Oh, Yolanda Adams. Oh my god. That could just let it go. If you

63:47KT: really want to cry.

63:50Guests: Yeah, yeah. So, given that, would you fund my, my Wiz remake? I would be an investor. I don't know if I would give you a full one. You don't want your menu on there? No, I'd be one of the producers definitely slash me with somebody or something like that, but I don't know.

64:13KT: What if you can make one change? Sorry, Jordan. What if you can make one change? Would that sway you?

64:20Guests: Yeah, but it's, I think what you're missing and what's so integral that made Who's making the music, actually?

64:26KT: Who's making the music? Yeah, I was just Who's making

64:29Guests: the music? Cause I like the idea of Terrence Nance, but I don't know if, I think he's so wacky. I don't mean wacky, like in the sense of like Looney Tunes, which is funny enough. A bit more grounded.

64:44KT: Is that what you're saying? Like a bit more grounded?

64:46Guests: Yeah. I feel like I need somebody more grounded. Somebody that's got like artistic fully, like, I get it. I get it. Terrence Nance definitely is like a, a artistic visionary. Like he's definitely somebody I want to see a movie from in the future.

65:01KT: I like Kamauu. Do you guys like Kamauu? Is that how you pronounce his name?

65:06Guests: Who?

65:07KT: Kamauu. He has a song, "Adeline." He's a singer.

65:14Guests: Oh, oh, the singer.

65:15KT: Yeah.

65:15Guests: It's like a director of a movie?

65:17KT: No, I thought it was all about music. Who's making the music? Oh,

65:19Guests: okay. Oh, who's making the music? Yeah, yeah, yeah. In, in the Hollywood version, it would be I feel like I need an instrumentalist. instrumentalist. I need somebody who is like, No, the Hollywood version would be arrangements. Yeah, it would be Pharrell. They would get Pharrell to do it. Yeah, it would be Pharrell. And I don't want, I don't want that. I

65:35KT: don't, I don't want that. I thought you were, I thought you were bringing people out, Jordan. I thought like, well, I now you,

65:43Guests: I, I would, if it was me. And I'm not quite sure how this would work because we don't really know who they are, but I would have SAULT do the music, SAULT. Oh, that's it. That's it. I don't, I don't like Questlove or like, you know, I feel like Questlove would actually do a good job or like Questlove would like find the people who would do a good job.

66:03Guests: Like, I feel like if Questlove made The Wiz mixtape, it would come out fire. Like it would be real, real good. But I like, SAULT is a little indie head. It's a little too indie head, I feel like. I would get them. KT, are you familiar with, are you familiar with SAULT?

66:21KT: No.

66:22Guests: Oh, so they're this, oh, let's put you on. They're this great, uh, kind of, they're British super group. Okay. But they're basically like, uh, Paper bags over the heads with a question mark. Like nobody knows who is in the band, but it's like Cleo Sol. The record is you clearly can hear Cleo Sol. You can hear those things. You can hear, uh, Michael Kiwanuka is on a couple of tracks.

66:49KT: OK,

66:49Guests: thank you. Yeah. Yeah. And. Like, these are heavy hitters in the songs that they make. Cause like, no one

66:54KT: knows, but they know. Yeah, no one knows

66:56Guests: who the producers are. But I could, you would bet it's probably like, Inflo. Dude who produces like, all of Little Simz's music. Who produces all of like, Little Simz's music. Like, they're not saying, but. Yeah. Cause the records come, like I have, I have. Yeah, the, the records all come in like black and they don't have like, they have the, the just numbers, but they don't have liner notes or anything like that.

67:16KT: Yeah,

67:17Guests: but SAULT 100%. If you actually, you know what, if you had SAULT, make the music, I don't care what, what everything else is. It's a Cameron Mason production of a Jordan, Jordan Clark film. I can do that. I mean, I, I know you want Barry Jenkins to direct it. Yeah. I feel like I want Barry Jenkins. Yeah. I feel like Barry Jenkins understands the visual palette, understands like where we could go with like the Afrofuturism. I feel like I feel like Terrence Nance got fired off that Space Jam movie for a reason.

67:50Guests: I'm not, you know, that's all I'm saying about that. I love Terrence Nance. I would love to talk to him. I would love to see what happened, but I feel like, and I love, An Oversimplification of Her Beauty. I think that's an excellent movie of the 2010s. I just don't know. I don't know where he taken The Wiz.

68:10Guests: I feel like he would glitch out The Wiz and confuse me more. And I feel like Barry Jenkins would be like, let's sit in a. Aesthetic, you know, dark horse. We could talk like he, you know, he can gather an aesthetic. He can gather the frame. You can, he can make that frame Moonlight. Obviously we don't even have to talk about it.

68:29Guests: You know, uh, Underground Railroad is like excellent, excellent work, you know? So like, and he's obviously about to make a musical with. The Mufasa Lion King movie with Lin-Manuel Miranda songs. I don't know how I feel about that.

68:46KT: I think we all know how we feel about it. I think we all know

68:48Guests: how we feel about that. What

68:51KT: do you know about the Pacific, Lin-Manuel Miranda?

68:55Guests: We're very worried. I'm gonna say we're worried we don't know what we're gonna get. Dark horse compromise between those two fields, Boots Riley. Ooh. Boots Riley. Okay, now we talking. I would, actually, I would, because Boots Riley got that thing. I don't know if, I mean, obviously, Sorry to Bother You.

69:15KT: Yeah.

69:16Guests: But I don't know if anybody watched I'm a Virgo, the show on Amazon. On Amazon

69:20KT: Prime with Jharrel Jerome. Love Jharrel Jerome, by

69:22Guests: the way. Great. Also, he can get the performances. That's what I want. I want to make sure like he knows music. He knows the music. He got The Coup and The Coup makes good records. Like, you know, he don't mess around. So actually I would even say Boots Riley on top of like, on top of Barry Jenkins.

69:42KT: There's a lot of potential here. I'm hearing as a, as a, as a stage play professional. And lover Cameron, do you feel a way about like running shows and films coming out at the same time, or do you have love for both?

70:01Guests: Do I feel a way? I'm trying to think because I've seen so many. Because I feel like people

70:07KT: would feel a way, like a certain sex of like, um, S E C T S, like certain sects of, sorry, of like, uh, theater goers would be like, no, this needs to stay because there's the Wicked one that's coming out soon. Yeah. There's like this

70:24Guests: unwritten rule where it's like, you don't want it on Broadway at the same time as your movie. They like very specifically waited so long for the Wicked movie. I remember when they talked, when Hamilton was out, they were like, there's going to be no movie for minimum 10, 15 years. Cause play has to sit on its own, has to stand on its own.

70:44KT: So that doesn't bother you personally.

70:46Guests: I don't think it bothers me. No.

70:47KT: Okay.

70:48Guests: I would, I would love to see like, if the, the revival's out now, I don't know if it's got like another year in it or so maybe, but it's, it, apparently it's like one of the top, Earners on Broadway makes a million a week, so it's gonna be here for a minute.

71:02Guests: but I think we're it's time. It's time. This generation deserves it. Because I feel like The Wiz is like something about our generation. You know, I feel like we're the last generation who like loves the shit out of this movie. And I feel like Gen Z is like totally fine with like, throw it in the garbage. Let's do a new. Yeah, make a new one. I don't care.

71:20Guests: Like I'm, I'm new. I don't know nothing. Well, I think that's the thing. So with with the remake. There is a timely element of it, right? You know what I mean? And like, it has been long enough. Since the original came out that I don't feel like we're stepping on anything.

71:37Guests: I don't feel like we are, you know, and impressing on anything that, you know, is being held up because I'll give you, I'll give you a perfect example. I'll give you a perfect example. Uh, two years ago, the West Side Story remake with everybody was worried. Spielberg's making a West Side Story remake. It's a, that's a perfect movie.

71:55Guests: We don't have to touch it. And then what he did was all the ensemble members from his West Side Story movie were actually starring were actually in the revival that was on Broadway at the time. There was a minimalist revival of West Side Story going on at the very same time. Shout out to those performers because they were rehearsing the movie during the day.

72:18Guests: and would do the play at night for like three months. That's insane. So that's two separate sets of choreography. You're learning one, you learned another one, and they're both serving the same story and you're doing it every day for three months. Nobody's bodies built for that. That's crazy. Yeah. So, and that revival was out while the movie came out.

72:42Guests: So, I don't think. Yeah. It could come out tomorrow. I'll be down with it. Yeah. I mean, there's going to be, like you said, there's going to be people when The Color Purple movie came out last year, there are people who are like, I don't want to see this. This is, you know, why are we doing this is unnecessary.

72:55Guests: So, there's always going to be that pushback, that contingent of people who, you know, we'll, we'll hold up the original as. you know, the greatest thing that's ever been made. And again, what I'm asking for is not necessarily like, do it better, you know, cause it's like, you're not going to do it better, you know, like there was this great, but in terms of today, like, again, more queer representation, you know, like, I think that would definitely be, be helpful.

73:21Guests: And again, we've got Colman, whether you've got Tituss, whether you got, uh, you know, you can pick, pick some people, you know, sprinkle them in, you know, Miss One or, you know, whoever else you want to be in there.

73:33KT: I like MJ Rodriguez.

73:34Guests: Oh yeah, yeah. There's a lot of, there's a lot of space to go around. And she can sing, she was in the Little Shop of Horrors, Off Broadway, that's up now.

73:43KT: Oh, there you go.

73:45Guests: and I think again, just, just a little bit of bringing it into focus. Cause like you were saying, like, there's some things that are stand the test of time, classic. You know, like these themes and whatnot, you don't have to really change them, but there are some things that you could do to add a little bit more context to either the times that we're living in, or maybe certain things that have changed between now and 1978 that will just as somebody who's watching it for the first time, you know, who hasn't seen it before, because I think you can, you can have them as companion pieces, right?

74:18Guests: Like, it's piece. Take care. The fear that a lot of people have when you remake something is you're trying to replace, you know, you're trying to make sure that, you know, you don't, well, we don't need the other one because we have this one now. And so, you know, like this would get where, but again, there wasn't such a classic, such a staple, you know, that like, I don't think you're ever going to, you're not going to top it.

74:39Guests: Right. And I don't think this is about trying to top The Wiz. There's definitely scenes in The Wiz that you're not going to top. You're not going to top like Emerald City. Like, you're not going, you're not going to top, like, I would even say Lena Horne's version of Believe in Yourself, which I would say Deborah Cox is desperately trying to do on Broadway right now, but it is, it's indelible.

75:02KT: You're over snowing? Excuse me? I thought I was levitated to some level, but excuse me. Wow. She

75:14Guests: was like a legend at that time. Like she had already lived a full life. She came up in the twenties. Like she was singing songs in the fifties. She was making pop hits in the fifties. And

75:26KT: she

75:27Guests: blew the house down in 78. Like, yeah, I'm on,

75:34KT: I'm coming around Jordan because I think it's just kind of the same. It's kind of the same thing with Kendrick. Like I don't need an album every year. I don't like, cause I don't even consume that fast. I don't think I'm not really a fast consumer in regards to like the arts and stuff.

75:51KT: so I don't think I can even think of a film that I would want to Remake or to see remade, it was cool to see The Color Purple, but I was like, even, you know, talking about the differences between Spielberg, but on the principle of what you're saying in that The Wiz will always be a fixture and a moment in time, it is also a vessel of commentary and how to explore the time of the now.

76:19KT: And it would be so interesting to see the reflections of a 2020 of like, I'm literally thinking of Kendrick Lamar's "N95," like post COVID post Black Lives Matter, BLM marches around the world, including Australia. Like, what does that look like? Because there is a weight and there is a pressure and they can also be joy, but there's a lot of. pain through that as well. So you've, I'm on board now with your truckload of money, Cameron, please. Let's make this happen.

76:56Guests: Okay. We'll be slash partners on it. It'll be a KT Cameron production of a Jordan Clark, uh, film. Can we

77:04KT: potentially consider Luke James? I like Luke James. Can he be? Can you be a potential Scarecrow over Usher? Is that OK?

77:13Guests: Doesn't he make music? He makes music, right?

77:16KT: Mm hmm.

77:17Guests: There's there's a lot of room, you know, for for roles and for exploration. I think, you know, there's There's more right answers than there are wrong answers, is what I would say, in terms of Which is a good thing. Passing people, yeah. Yeah, that's good.

77:32Guests: Uh, but again, just like I was saying, like, if we really want to bring into focus what it is, because there's a lot of, there's a lot of reasons why you might want to, not want to be at home. Right. There's a lot of reasons why, you know, you might want to go somewhere else. And so, you know, especially within the Black community, like there's a lot of different ways to explore that.

77:55Guests: and different, because I mean, again, if, if The Wiz originally is a reinterpretation of the Wizard of Oz, you know, through a black lens to take that story, that all American story and convert it into, you know, something that speaks to, you know, our circumstances, then the remake of The Wiz, like you're saying, KT, could be something that takes into account all of the things that have happened since 1978, you know, all of the things that we want to speak to.

78:23Guests: And again, like, race doesn't really have to do anything with it in terms of like racism, in terms of like, You know, things pushing down from the top, but more so just like where we are as a community, if you're talking about, you know, why is, why is Dorothy at home, ain't no jobs, you know what I mean? Like she's been trying, she went out, she got, she came home, economy crashed, you know what I mean?

78:46Guests: She's got to live with her, her uncle and her aunt or, you know, You know, she went out, she had some troubles with a partner or she, you know, she moved out here to be with somebody and they broke up and now she's got nowhere to go. She's living with her aunt and uncle, you know what I mean? There's a lot of ways to flip it and make it work that still get into.

79:05Guests: You know, some more emotional territory, right? Because that's about finding love again. That's about finding the space to love the capacity. There's a lot of ways that you could flip it. And so I think that's what makes it right for not necessarily reinterpretation, but right for, you know, remaking. with all of the different things that you can express through that particular framework.

79:28Guests: So that's why anybody listening, you know, I'm not saying that when I say, you know, even perfect things have room for improvement. I'm not saying that The Wiz is a perfect and I'm not saying that, you know, we need to replace The Wiz. I'm not saying that The Wiz is, is something it's on Netflix right now.

79:45Guests: You should go watch it. You know, especially if you haven't seen it in a while, like it's definitely every time I see it, you know, I'm, I'm transported back to that space, but at the same time we can, we can move, you know, we can move forward. We can always add, we can always do little things here and there that kind of give.

80:05Guests: This work, again, a space to endure through future generations, right? Like if you're saying, you know, maybe the current generation isn't latching onto the ways like past generations have, you know, like, I, I feel like there was still endures, you know, in that way, like the TV, I was a big fan of the TV, uh, Oh, the Queen Latifah version that they did.

80:31Guests: Yeah. Queen Latifah in it. And, Amber Riley. It wasn't bad, but it wasn't. It wasn't, it wasn't hidden. I have, I have problems generally with that format. I don't necessarily know if it is the most conducive to try to do a split hybrid theater television experience. I feel like, I would like I think the only two I ever saw was like, I saw, I saw Rent, and I saw The Wiz.

80:56Guests: Rent with Tinashe as Angel, which was like, I mean, I don't hate Tinashe, actually, I love Tinashe, but like, why, why, why here? What's going on?

81:09KT: They didn't match her freak.

81:12Guests: They did not, they did not match her freak.

81:15KT: They, yeah.

81:17Guests: But that, that ends my controversial Wiz. Actually, keep Tinashe in The Wiz. Legit, uh, the intro to her album before the last one was a reinterpretation of, uh, the overture of The Wiz. Oh, there you go.

81:36KT: Wow.

81:36Guests: Shout out to Tinashe for just being great the whole time.

81:43KT: Yeah, it's a moment. It's a moment for R&B girlies right now to be fair.

81:46Guests: It really is actually. It's a moment.

81:48KT: Oh, I think we've covered a lot. Cause I had like, uh, we going to explore themes, but then the characters are kind of the themes anyway. and it wasn't didactic in any way, but it was definitely, you knew where you were going at particular points. And even one of like, one of the lines that we referenced earlier about Scarecrow, like that's literally his whole character development of, you know, cause it was just like, that's also.

82:16KT: And it's not really a hot take, but that's like, I thought like confidence was more of his thing as opposed to a brain. Cause man's was quoting Cicero and shit. Like it was

82:26Guests: just. Right. But that was also like the whole thing was that like everybody had all of that stuff in it to begin with, you know?

82:34KT: So you're saying even then he already had it. When he already had, he

82:39Guests: already had knowledge. He already had a brain. He was literally pulling it out of his brain. And that's the final thing with him and Dorothy is that this whole time he's, he's been, others have been speaking through him. And then finally he has his original thought, uh, which may be the most poignant of the film, you know, so it's to him. Uh, but like Cameron says, it was, it was in him all along. He just needed his friends to show him.

83:08Guests: Lion was brave. He was like, you know, he busted out of that stone and he was like, back up from my library, back up from this building, you know.

83:19KT: I've got a hit, Incapable of Being King, I O B K.

83:25Guests: Wow, yeah. That's, that's the, the Drake, that's Drake's next album. You know what? If he had half an ounce of like, actual creativity in there, he would like, name that shit. Nah. He ain't doing that. He ain't real. He ain't real. You ain't real.

83:44KT: It's like you want to see it, but then you're also like, actually, no. I don't. Yeah.

83:49Guests: Cause we off that. We off that. Yeah.

83:52KT: Are there any other characters or themes you want to explore? Cause I think we did it so, we just did it like, just by having natural conversation. But is there anyone that we didn't really touch on that you want? Also, is Glinda Raiden? Or like Gandalf, the whole time, we needed your help.

84:12Guests: Well, it's interesting, when you think about the interpolation of the Wizard of Oz, so like, in the actual Wizard of Oz, right, like, the Wicked Witch of the West is more or less the main character of the movie, right? Like, she's For sure. We're cutting back and forth to her the whole time and, you know, she's actively after Dorothy, uh, because she killed her sister. and then this, like, we don't, we don't really see Evillene until the end. Until we get there. Yeah, she gets the whole sequence and she's not really, she's not really mentioned.

84:47Guests: You know, she gets mentioned in the beginning. They mention her in the beginning, like, she's over there. Don't don't fuck with her. And you kind of connect the dots that like the things that are after them are coming from her, but we never see her like sending any of those people to like get Dorothy.

85:05Guests: Until you do see her sending the monkeys. Right, which is also like that that might be the thing I would love to remake and just like get rid of or I don't know something I remember watching it and just be like what the I'll say my biggest like my brain kind of like blocked. I was like, first of all, they ugly as hell.

85:26Guests: That's let's get that out the gate. Nasty looking dudes. They stay like farting and stuff like that. Don't get me out of here. Also, are they attached to the motorcycles? Are they one with the motorcycles? That's fucking weird. Like that's what is that more than the little like lantern people that get like blown up and like chase after them or yes, yes, it is. They're like symbiotically attached to motorcycles.

85:55KT: Yeah.

85:55Guests: They're like motorcycle people. I'm just yeah, I'm I could come out of the costumes at the end and they. Oh yeah. Then they get free. And that's yeah. Yeah, that is it's so on the nose. But I do love it every time, too, when they like unzip the clothing because it feels hot in there.

86:13Guests: It's like, oh yeah, I'm sure the the set was hot. The costumes must have been hot. Like they look like they were all leather. Big layers of leather and then they unzip them and they're wearing like bathing suits underneath like, thank God y'all I could breathe. I could breathe for y'all. Good God. It's hot in that factory. Good God.

86:33KT: I think, I don't know why it had to be that scene when, when they were in their underwear, but I realized that like it was all black dancers. You know what I mean? I think it's just like

86:43Guests: Alvin Ailey. It's Alvin Ailey's dance company.

86:45KT: Oh, well, there you go. But it's like, I think, cause I don't really clock a lot of that stuff because I think just generally we watch a lot of black and brown stuff, but I was like, I wonder if there were to be a reimagining. Not that it would be a problem, but I was like, I feel like people would be have a problem with that. And obviously people did if they gave it like a rotten radio, Rotten Tomatoes. But I was like, this is nice.

87:05Guests: No, there's not one white person in the whole movie. Yeah. I love it. I love it. It's.

87:12KT: I was like,

87:15Guests: I love, I love that. Like even the director and the writer was like, they're proud of it. I'm sure or whatever, but like, it was like, Hey, let them have that. That's that's what I pointed the camera. I wrote the words, but I made sure that, you know, everybody was looking as beautiful as possible and, you know, like reflect them for the culture.

87:33Guests: And like, I just love that for them, like, not to even get into holes subject to allyship, but like, that's the side of a good allies. Like, I'm gonna let y'all do y'all thing. Yeah. Y'all need to take credit. I just pointed the camera. I made sure that the, the edit came through and everything looked right.

87:51Guests: You know? Well, I'm sure there was a, there had to be a level of listening and trust, you know, in the sense of like, particularly the earlier family scenes where a lot of that feels like, I'm sure, again, like, a lot of that was taken straight from the book, from the play, you know, like, we're just, we're kind of trying to recreate those things on screen.

88:13Guests: But, you know, there wasn't ever a line or a sequence in the film where I was like, I don't know if a Black person would have done, said, acted, reacted, you know what I mean? Like, in that kind of way, I think it was all, either they just, they trusted the actors to, to give authentic reactions or, you know, play it in a way that felt true to them.

88:36Guests: And, you know, if there was any dialogue that may not have fit, I'm sure there was conversations around that, that ultimately ended up what we saw on the screen. Cause I think, From top to bottom, you know, even like, I love Miss One. And she's like, she's she's bordering on kind of a stereotypical, like, you know, hustler character.

88:58Guests: The number, the number runner. Yeah. But she's still got enough of her own individual personality that, you know, like nothing, nothing veers into a negative stereotype as much as she's like, she's a character in the neighborhood more so than she is like the person. A negative depiction of whatever, you know, and I feel like there's a call and response for her when she's like, well, we'll all just get back to running our game, right?

89:24Guests: And everybody's like, yeah, they're running our game, right? We're just going to run our game. And I'm like, yeah, that, that like energy feels authentic. That energy feels.

89:32Guests: positive versus like some dude who's just like 223 all right 445 I got you you know well and it's there's there's again the joy that just kind of leaps off the screen in a lot of the instances where you can tell from the dancers to the singers the performers like people look like they are living for being in this movie they are giving it I mean again the last dance sequence you know the big dance sequence and uh, player, like it's everybody's going all out, you know what I mean?

90:07Guests: And it's beautiful to watch. I have I don't think I've maybe this new West Side Story, but I ain't never seen nobody dance out like they dance in that final sequence. Like every every day is like perfectly pointed. Like you can literally see the silhouettes of the dances, you know, like you see the choreography, Choreographed, you know, that that's the cultural, that's the cultural, I was going to say that's the cultural cachet that you can't buy.

90:38Guests: You know what I mean? If you, if you talk to somebody like, Hey, you see that scene right there, that was me. Nothing, no matter who you're talking to, no matter. It's like I was in The Wiz. I was one of the dancers in The Wiz, you know what I mean? That's me. So, I'm gonna take that cornbread for free. very much. Did you enjoy The Wiz? Yes. Did you enjoy my performance? I'm sure you did. You're welcome.

91:13Guests: Yeah, the way, like the way they're strutting in Emerald City, like, Oh yeah, I love it. When I'm wearing the green for the first time, you see him like the slow strut of life. Yeah. Bam. Like you see us, do you see this, this color reflecting off of our clothes? Like the, the swag in that scene. Yep. It's one of a million. The pageantry

91:34KT: was gorgeous. It was beautiful. They literally

91:36Guests: are like, they're walking mannequins in a Macy's. Like, they really look like they're, I am, I am gorgeous. Do you see this? You see how I'm putting this shit on? I'm wearing the shit out of this, you know? Like that, that again, like the cultural cachet, I ain't never seen nobody put on clothes like that.

91:55Guests: You know, well, yeah, I, I don't know. That's, that's, that's the high bar to really strive for. If you're going to remake this, it's like, you really have to nail all of the little things from the costumes to the, you know, dance routines to all of that. Like, like the, again, I'll keep repeating it. You're not going to top it.

92:18Guests: You're not going to exceed it. You're not going to get, you know, higher than that. But you also can't get, you can't go below it. You got to meet it. You have to, you have to meet it. You have to meet the moment. So I think just being involved in it, people would have that same energy of just like, Oh, this is, you know, if you're, if you're a dancer, if you're a black dancer, a remake of The Wiz, Is like your dream job, like

92:48KT: your time, your time has come. Yeah, that would be it. So I feel like

92:52Guests: you would get the best of the best. You would get, you know, all these people who really from the choreography all the way down, the people who are giving it 10,000 percent. So like a game. Yeah, that's, that's, again, that's another reason why I think it would be right for a remake is that in the same way, I know this is not necessarily a, Uh, popular these days, given Star Wars state of things, but like when Star Wars was coming back, people were like, people loved Star Wars and there was nothing, there had been no Star Wars for such a long time that being able to be a part of that.

93:28Guests: Was like there was nothing was ever going to come close, right? You know what I mean? So we're going to give you 40,000%. Uh, and being a part of this would be the same situation where it's like, this doesn't happen. This is how many other remakes of the wizard they're going to be. You know what I mean? This might be the one.

93:46Guests: You know, at least in our lifetime, you know, so like you gotta do everything, you know, you gotta, and that's why I think it would, that's why I think it would work because it's, it's held up in such high esteem that I think, I don't think anybody involved would get anything less than a hundred percent, you know, to, to make sure that it meets those standards and like holds up to that. Yeah, I agree.

94:11KT: Wow. I feel, I feel great. I feel like, I feel like side A was like where we just get our shit off in regards to Drake. and side B is just like being coming together in love and like continuing the conversation because there's, there's As long as there is, and there should be a space to have these sort of conversations and even just have this joy, there will always be room for remakes and God damn it, Jordan, you got me.

94:40KT: Let's do it. I always, I always have very like persnickety feelings about film and you just broke me down in a way that I wasn't expecting. you know, like, well,

94:52Guests: it's

94:53KT: wow.

94:53Guests: Again. I, we all love film here, and I think we all recognize specifically, you know, as, as, as the industry continues to attempt to rectify wrongs of the past and like, wants to be more inclusive and wants to have, you know, more people involved at different levels of things, like, you know, we, you know, We, we can do better.

95:20Guests: We should do better, but like there are, there are a few kind of touchstone cultural things that, I think could really unite people and bring the best out of people when they get, I feel like I'm not trying to oversell it. Although if anybody with money is listening. Like, Hey, keep listening. but you know, in the, in the same way to tie the whole conversation back together in the same way that Kendrick united so many people through this whole beef, like the, the way that people will unite around, you know, uh, just, uh, class A Wiz remake.

96:01Guests: Like culturally, it would be like one of those moments that would live on forever in the same way again, when you, when you think about Black Panther and when that came out, I'll always remember I went to at least two different theaters to watch it. Both of them had African markets in the front where people were just selling things.

96:21Guests: Both of them had not just people like. in Black Panther cosplay, but like people were dressed up to go see that movie, you know, like it was, it was crazy. And I feel like this would be another, can you imagine going to a theater and everybody dressed up like people from Emerald City, just like groups of people in green or red or gold or dress like Dorothy or dress like, yeah, I mean, like, It would, it would be that though, people would go out for that.

96:51Guests: They would do that. So like, that's, that's the kind of thing that I think, you know, both The Wiz and Kendrick can bring is this, these, these cultural unifying moments, uh, that kind of give us something to hold on to. Right. I mean, that's, you know, again, you make music that pacifies them. I make music that electrifies them.

97:11Guests: Wiz is electrifying, Kendrick is electrifying, you know, these are things that I think really inspire people creatively, but also just in their lives, you know, day to day lives, you know, give people messages and things that they can hold on to and take with them after they've consumed the art. And so like, more of that, always good, always necessary.

97:32KT: Any closing thoughts, Cameron?

97:35Guests: Yeah, top that, Cameron. Dammit. I think, I mean, I'm grateful. Thank you, KT, for having us here. Honestly. Absolutely. Just the opportunity to really talk about and revel in Black joy and, like, we don't do that. We don't do that. We, Black people's, one of our biggest kind of like, uh, conundrums is that we like, we kind of revel in the negative a little bit.

98:12Guests: It's not, I don't think it's intentional. I think it's just a matter of like, you know, our entire story, especially African Americans, like the story of African Americans is a fraught one. The Black experience is Black and serious. You know what I mean? But we don't have a whole lot. We don't feel like we, I don't feel like we spend enough time, like living in our joy enough.

98:37Guests: Yeah. And, you know, to have a space where we could talk about, like, you know, Kendrick's defeat of Drake and gather around the fire and tell the story of how we saw and how we lived through and the music videos. And, you know, it's July 4th. We 'bout to be at the barbecue. We 'bout, we 'bout to pop out, you know?

98:56Guests: Yeah. Man. to talk about something like The Wiz, which is like literal, literal black joy. Like every time I put it on, it's, it's, it literally brings our family together. It brought my family together, brings them together every holiday, closer, um, an opportunity to talk about something like this and the opportunity to listen to something like this is. Very few, I feel like. And, you know, I'm just thankful that you, you know, use your platform to do something like that. Oh, that's,

99:26KT: that's so sweet of you. And I'm, well, I think just, you know, having the staunchest African man around. Like I just. Yeah. Like we don't need to get into like the allyship and the serious stuff, but like, I'm very conscious of who I am, like in this space and even on our podcast.

99:46KT: So I think it's very easy to be like, well, I paid is everything, but then you become fucking Barbie and that's, that's not something I aspire to be. But yeah, like I just. Like, I genuinely love just like being able to talk to you and even coming onto your podcast. And I don't think I can even have those sorts of conversations on other podcasts that I love.

100:05KT: And like, we're close with as well. It's like, it's a very, specific and a very deliberate, thing that we do. And I, like, I love that. And I praise that. And, you know, there are even moments like in The Wiz where we were talking about, we're culturally just, you know, Obviously, I'm not Drake, so I'm not going to pretend like I understand, like, the cultural touch points that you're talking about.

100:28KT: But even, cause we're watching Sprint as well. And, you know, I talk about the, the family, how everything's happy. And I was like, I, I can't relate to that, but Noah Lyles and his mom, it's such a beautiful relationship that they have. And they cover that in Sprint. And I'm like, I want that. For everyone, you know, I want everyone to be able to have that closeness and that support.

100:49KT: And when you see something in your child, like nurture that or like people in your life, like if you see that sort of talent or on a, I guess, financial point of view, if you see Jordan's talent in casting, please fund that. but I think in that room,

101:04Guests: Jordan, I'm trying, I'm trying.

101:07KT: I think a nice way to like wrap up this before we get to like, the film recommendations is, you know, where I'm not a big sports person, but I enjoy like track and field. And obviously the Olympics are coming up and that sort of thing. And we're watching the Sprint documentary. We're watching all of the, it's usually like the US and, Jamaica, where it's the most interesting in regards to like sprints and stuff. there's also, uh, Ferdinand Omanyala and he's Kenyan.

101:32KT: He's like fucking staunch. He's like built like a rugby player, but he runs as fast as, everyone else. And I just had this moment where I was like, you know, like, it would be cool if like Pacific Islanders are there, but I was like, I was like, I was like, Oh, like, how does it feel to like, see so much, like excellent black athletes, like just running at the top of their game. And he's like, I'm used to it. And I'm like, piss off.

101:53Guests: Not every time. Every time I remember, I remember like what? Yeah, it's what we, I remember 96 Olympics with Dominique Dawes out here. Like I, we, we were right behind her. Like she was family, even though she was from Maryland. but still like every time, every time, every time we out here popping out, we need to be behind at a hundred percent.

102:17Guests: Cause we all, we got, we all, we got worldwide. That's straight up. That's all we got. So I, I mean, sure. It might come a dime a dozen. I would say sure. Well, I think it's also cause

102:31KT: Kenyans have like, uh, like long distance runners and stuff, but I was like, I was really feeling emotional about like, Oh, you know, like, it would be cool if there were Pacific Islanders, but like, you know, so happy for you. And like, just seeing like black athletes in general, he's like, yeah, And yeah,

102:48Guests: hey, hey, I'm like Issa Rae. I'm rooting for everybody black every time. Very true. Until until you fuck up like Drake. Yeah, or Diddy or or Diddy or the countless names. But then again, like I said, like until you fuck up

103:06KT: until you do. Thank you, friends and lovers. It's like we've, we've all joined to celebrate, and also to triple step all over the grave of, and also, celebrate down the yellow brick road, friends and lovers, we're going to finish off in a segment we call For Your Reference. We're going to reference films that would work as a double feature for The Wiz. I'm not sure who wants to take this first. Who feels ready?

103:43Guests: Cameron, do you need time to think I can. Yeah, go ahead and vamp for a little bit. I do need it a little bit. Well, I think, it depends on what you're, what you're looking for, because I feel like The Wiz, if you want another musical, Right. It's so singular. To go along with The Wiz, right. I'm trying to think of A recent piece, well, you know, because Rye Lane is kind of like, you know, it's got some, some musical elements to it as much as being a rom-com, And I think that could be fun. If you're looking for something that's like Afrofuturistic, that kind of like fits into that lane as well. I,

104:27Guests: yeah, I don't know. There's a couple movies. I actually have something. I actually have something. Okay. That might be a little weird. Well, that's what I'm saying. There's a couple of movies.

104:36KT: Unless it's YG calling you weird, then we don't like weird, but in every other case, we like weird.

104:42Guests: Not YG weird. Uh, taking it back to the eighties, also Michael Jackson. Talking about Moonwalker? I'm talking about Moonwalker, baby. Like that movie's fucking insane. Talk about a movie like when you're young, you just don't know what you're watching for 90 minutes. So KT, if you're not familiar to any of the listeners, not familiar. Jackson was like in the, I guess this is, I guess it's Bad, right?

105:09Guests: I don't, I don't have the context. I wasn't there. Cause I think Moonwalker came out in 83. Yeah. so basically it's like the first half of it, the first 45 minutes, it's like a collection of music videos. Some are music videos that are tied to Bad, so like, I think the, Speed Demon video is in there.

105:26KT: Smooth

105:26Guests: Criminal. Smooth Criminal video, like the full Smooth Criminal video, so not the version that's like, just him in the club dancing. You get the full before and after, and then after he leaves the club, it turns into a video. And then there seems to be like, and then the second 45 minutes is like its own film that's about these like three kids that were playing catch in a field and they threw the ball too far and the ball kind of fell into this hole where Joe Pesci is like working kids in a sweatshop and then Michael Jackson comes to save the kids but then they have this like mecha battle, like a straight up like Gundam battle at the end.

106:09Guests: Michael Jackson turned into a Gundam. Michael Jackson turns into a Gundam, a silver Gundam. Very, very similar to like the Wiz's head. Uh huh. And he turns into a spaceship and kills Joe Pesci, drug dealer Joe Pesci. Which, and it never feels like it's rated, like, you know, PG movies feel like PG movies, PG-13 movies feel like PG-13 movies.

106:32Guests: I don't feel like at any given moment, I don't know what this movie is rated or who it's for. Who's it for? I don't know if it's for kids. In the first half, because it feels more like a collection of music videos. And then the second half feels like, because the, the field that they're playing on is very green and very beautiful.

106:52Guests: And like the production value is very like clean and sleek. And then when you get into the sweatshop, it feels really grimy and almost like it's teetering on an R rating sometimes that I don't know what the movie wants out of me. In the same sense that like when you watch The Wiz or when I watched The Wiz as a kid, I was like, These monsters coming out of the subway are a little scary.

107:15Guests: These, the people in the, in the, in the organ that are singing to me are a little scary. You know, the Evillene's factory is like definitely oppressive and scary. Don't want to go there. And, and I feel like Moonwalker is like, It's a celebration of Michael Jackson, but it's also a celebration of Michael Jackson, like at his height, it's post-Thriller.

107:37Guests: So like, he's already got the victory lap, but it's also like introducing you to stuff from Bad that you're about to see when that record comes out, or I guess it's 83. So that record had already come out, but, and then the, that last 45 minutes, the second half is its own film.

107:53KT: Okay. And I can

107:54Guests: say, KT, Cameron's been leaving out a very important part of context, which is Michael Jackson, this movie. Is Michael Jackson. Oh, he's so he's playing. He's no, he's playing Michael. His character is Michael Jackson. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Is Joe Pesci, Joe Pesci? No, no, he's playing like a drug dealer with like a weird, uh, topknot. Yeah. And sunglasses that like the vibe is weird. Every time people see Michael Jackson, they're like, Michael, like, it's like, Michael, what's up?

108:30Guests: And it's like, he's Michael Jackson. It's like if Michael Jackson himself was like wandering by this field and decided to help these three rando kids. But by turning it into like a car and a leopard and, uh, and a spaceship back and a mecha. And nobody's surprised that you can do these things. I'm in. I'm in. It's actually batshit crazy. And I'm just like, I might be loud right now, but I'm underselling it. It's actually

109:01KT: crazy. Have a beer

109:04Guests: or like, you know, your preferred drug of choice, maybe just a little bit before you enter this world. Cause it's actually crazy.

109:14KT: But like, why don't they make films like that anymore? Like that sounds So interesting to me,

109:19Guests: they do and they don't because I feel like so Michael Jackson obviously like one on one, right? And Prince sort of did that to Prince had like the Sign o' the Times movie and he also had Purple Rain where he kind of like, Yeah, that's a lie had Under the Cherry Moon and Graffiti Bridge, and to a lesser extent Graffiti Bridge. We're not going to talk about that. But, uh, but like these movies where they like, uh, mythologize themselves, you know?

109:47KT: Oh, I just meant like batshit crazy films. Like, but it's like, batshit

109:53Guests: crazy.

109:54KT: But that's what I mean. Like, it's hard to explain. It sounds wild when you explain it. And maybe not to that level, but like Bullet Train didn't get the love that it deserved. And I think it's because people have pre-packaged imaginations of how far they're willing to go. And I'm just like, just say, you don't watch anime without saying you don't watch anime. Like you want things to be pre-packaged for you. Shut up. Like it's annoying. Anyway, my point is, I think they should make more films like that.

110:21KT: You want to, you want to fly Fast and Furious to the moon. But, I mean, like, just, let's do crazy stuff together.

110:28Guests: If this is where we're going, Cameron, my recommendation, the film that I was thinking of that, uh, is, might, might match, match the freak of Moonwalker, is Space is the Place. Hell yeah! Let's Uh, which is, and equally it might be the Moonwalker of its time, uh, because I think it is, do you, do you know of which I speak, KT? No. Okay.

110:57KT: This rah ins, instead of like film recommendations, this is your Criterion Closet. I'm sorry, it's not as prestigious as a Criterion Closet, but here we.

111:06Guests: For people who don't know Sun Ra, Sun Ra was a jazz musician, uh, from the 60s and the 70s into the 80s who told everybody who would listen to him that he was from Saturn, uh, that he is, his mission was to Unite black people through the music and to take us back to space where we belonged, right? We belong.

111:30KT: It sounds like a Key & Peele sketch.

111:33Guests: So, and he, but he is the original, he, this is where Afrofuturism comes from because nobody was doing shit like this before. My guy was wearing Pharaoh, Pharaoh headpieces in the movie. Yeah. For some reason, somebody thought it was a good idea To not just make a movie with Sun Ra, but to more or less, like, convince him to do the Sun Ra story.

112:00Guests: Yeah. And so, the movie is a partial, pseudo projection Autobiographical film because it's like his life as he tells it, but he like meets the devil and they do like, uh, I'm forgetting what's the, what's the movie where, uh, the Bergman movie where they, they play chess with death, 16th seal, six, six, Seventh Seal. So it's like a Seventh Seal style thing where he's like playing chess with the devil, betting on the future of humanity

112:42KT: as

112:43Guests: like the music, as the movie goes on, there's like musical breaks where like him and his band just play songs. Uh, he comes to earth in a spaceship. And just rides around Oakland, basically, and, like, meets up with these kids who are part of this, like, revolutionary movement.

113:03Guests: And then I think they, like, somebody abducts Sun Ra because he's, like, giving Black people too many ideas. And, like, it's, like, it's crazy. It's wild. There's, there's a fair share of nudity. There's a fair share of, uh, Just like wild scenes going on in there. but it's, it's a very seventies movie as well.

113:28Guests: So like, I don't know how it goes with The Wiz, but it's got the Afrofuturistic elements. It's got the musical elements. It's got the fantastical elements. I don't know how much of the community, well, it's got some community togetherness messages in there. but it's just, it's, you gotta, you gotta see it to believe it.

113:53KT: These sound great.

113:54Guests: Yeah, I would. I would definitely suggest and I would love to hear back if you ever watched either one of these.

114:05KT: I actually, I really do want to watch these. These sound very fun.

114:09Guests: I would say that we might have actually suggested a double feature in itself of Moonwalker. Honestly.

114:15KT: I

114:17Guests: want to do that now. I got it. We got to do that. We'll rent out a theater and, uh, we'll show those back to back. For real. Not, you, you're joking, but I got connections at the Metrograph here in New York. We gotta, we're gonna have to make something happen. Say the word. We'll, we'll, we'll get it together. And that's where I'll pitch my Wiz remake.

114:36KT: Nice. Now that I've got All of you open minded people here.

114:42Guests: Now that we've locked the doors and you can't leave, uh, here's my There you go, there you go. Here's my

114:46KT: chess, here's my chess game with you devils.

114:50Guests: We're passing the hat around now. Uh, yeah.

114:54KT: Oh, I love that. my, I guess mine isn't very exciting. It's very, it's very mainstream. But before I get to that, I just wanted to say one of my favorite, like cinema, experiences and I usually don't, especially after like 2020, I started to realize, but I think Oti was happy to be out of the home. Cause I like pausing all the time and like having a discussion all the time.

115:17KT: So it was probably like having enough of me, but like, I get annoyed going to the cinema, even if it's like a comedy, it's like, I don't want to hear you laugh. I'm that level of hater, I guess. but anyway, so I think it was Halloween. I hate the way you laugh. Yeah, I know. I think it was Halloween Ends. Didn't really care for the movie. Didn't really care for it. But like, at the end, someone just like, didn't even stand up, started clapping, super broke. Fuck

115:45Guests: you!

115:46KT: Just like,

115:47Guests: clapping. Alright.

115:49KT: Actually it was Saw X. I think it was, that's also what we're not,

115:53Guests: neither movie deserves applause, but it was like

115:57KT: the rambunctiousness of his fuck. Yeah. I was like, I hope to be as passionate about something in life as fair

116:05Guests: as

116:05KT: that. Hopefully it's

116:07Guests: something that has a little bit more merit to it than Saw.

116:11KT: Yeah, no, it was more the reaction as opposed to the film that I, think about. But I was just going, I was going to reference, I was going to reference Spirited Away just because of the coming back to home reference. But, Howl's Moving Castle, it's not a French book. I think it might be European. Like it's based, like Howl's Moving Castle is based on a book. But the film has the Wicked Witch of the Waste. So there are like parallels to the Wizard of Oz. So I guess I'm tangentially watching things, just not watching.

116:42KT: Yeah. as well, and also like, I I'm very, I'm very snobby about my dubs, but I will allow the English dub. It's got Billy Crystal as Calcifer, which is very cute. Christian Bale, the dreamiest, creamiest voice around, and Emily, Emily Mortimer, as well. But I think that's, I feel like those are three very different, Journeys. I hope we all make it home. Yes.

117:10Guests: I think, I think it's, yeah. I think those are great though. I love the Ghibli movies. Yeah. I mean, there's some that are like, some are definitely better than others, but like, the heights of the heights, can't be matched. Absolutely. Really can't be matched. Even the latest one, like The Boy and the Heron were like, Oh my god.

117:31Guests: Yeah, that was still doing it. I was, I remember I saw Boy and the Heron in the theaters. Uh, sadly we were in the second row. Uh, I got, I got words for my friend who bought those tickets. But even like the stuff, like with the parakeets and the, or the, the, the papers flying in his face, like that's hand animated and some of it by Mr.

117:56Guests: Miyazaki himself, it's like. My God, like, that's, that's, you never, it's like the type of artistry is like, it's unmatched. It's really unmatched and like to even be privy to see it feels like a privilege, you know? Mm

118:14KT: hmm.

118:15Guests: Yeah.

118:15KT: I'll recommend Porco Rosso if you haven't watched that. It's just,

118:19Guests: that's the last one I watched. I loved it.

118:22KT: Especially being older, like, if you're like younger watching, you probably won't get it.

118:26Guests: Probably won't get it, yeah. But if you've watched a couple spy movies at that point now, you're like, oh yeah, this is kind of a low key banger.

118:33KT: Yeah. And

118:34Guests: Michael, Michael Keaton on the dub is actually like not that bad either.

118:38KT: I didn't listen. No, I think we did listen to things. That's fair. That's fair.

118:41Guests: Hey, you know. Ghibli, I will say also Ghibli does better dubs than like most. Yeah. Yeah, their, their dubs are probably like the cream of the crop. The other ones are like, you know, you can go without.

118:53KT: Like, I'm a level of snob, I still look away at Michael B. Jordan because he said Naruto, and I'm like, sir.

119:00Guests: Nah, he's trying. You know, he's trying. He'll get there eventually.

119:06KT: Well, we already got there. Friends and lovers. wow. Walk it off, I guess. It's been hours now. We

119:12Guests: might, we

119:13KT: might split this in two. Might have

119:15Guests: to, yeah.

119:16KT: This is some good exercise.

119:18Guests: It happens on our podcasts occasionally too. We gotta, we could be having to split them up occasionally. But that means that, you know, conversation is going good. Uh, episode is good. So for sure.

119:31KT: So good. so where can we. What are you guys up to? And where can we find you? What's next on the podcast feed? What's next in your personal, well maybe not personal, but like in your timelines, what's, what's going on with you guys?

119:45Guests: for me, I'm, I'm cooking up a little short film right now. Really, we're literally just gathering producers at the very moment, gathering the team. Hoping to shoot something by the end of this year. I, I got something crazy for you. I got something like actual crazy for you. So, but other than that, I'll play my

120:03KT: schedule.

120:05Guests: I'll, Hey, I'll send it. I'll be sending it out to you first once we gotta edit, you know. But yeah, uh, find me on the socials at the blip 1138. My Instagram is a little. little rough right now. You know, I'm really going on there, but hoping to have a, uh, White People Won't Save You Instagram very soon.

120:26KT: Okay. Yes. Yeah.

120:28Guests: We haven't done that. We haven't done that yet. It's a little tough. You know, we both have schedules. We're both very busy people. So to make socials is like a little tough. But, you know, I take that as

120:38KT: a personal attack because I just created a new Instagram. No, you guys are great.

120:45Guests: If not anything, you're the blueprint. So it's just

120:49KT: actually, he's not on the social. Well, he is on other social, but it is just

120:53Guests: doing it. You're doing it. Yeah, absolutely. So we definitely, if anything's coming down the pipeline, it's White People Won't Save You, uh, you know, Yeah, as well as on YouTube, where we're going to figure out how to put out our live show on there for people to watch.

121:10Guests: We talked about The Mummy with our friend, Clark of the UK Hardware podcast. Uh, yeah, we got, we got some good episodes coming up. that I think people appreciate. We got, we got the other black and white. If you listened to the episode with KT, uh, there was the black and white, that was the Australian movie. And then we got around to the black and white, which was the movie that Cameron watched instead of that movie. Uh, you know, you

121:36KT: could do a whole black and white film podcast. Cause there's so many of them.

121:41Guests: There's a bunch of them and they sadly, most of them do fit into what we do. We do what we actually, yeah. So, uh, but yeah, if you're looking for us, you can find us at white underscore pod on Twitter for now, and then eventually on Instagram and other places. yeah, we did some live shows earlier this year. We're thinking about maybe doing some more come the fall or going into next year, so be on the lookout for that. And I think that's about it.

122:11KT: Nice. Uh, we're @ForYourRefPod in places. This is wanky shit. And you know what? If you're here, then hopefully you'll find us. If not, you're on the podcast feed. but, uh, Cameron, Jordan, thank you so much for joining me today. Like this is the feeling I feel. When Kendrick says all eyes on me, I'ma send it up to Pac. Like I'm just

122:36Guests: all the way.

122:37KT: Yeah.

122:38Guests: All eyes on us. And we send it out to Pac.

122:42KT: So

122:42Guests: the only, the only way that video could have been better is during that line. If there was like digital Tupac in the clouds, like, yeah, just looking down like that meme of, uh, Martin Luther King watching like people's white people in the field, just smiling, like, yeah. Yeah, maybe that's in the remix. Yeah. Yeah.

123:07KT: I'm not even going to add to that. That's a perfect way to end it. thank you so much. And we'll see you guys next week.

123:15Guests: All right.

123:15KT: Um,