Shang-Chi – Wenwu man loves a woman

Full transcript of Shang-Chi – Wenwu man loves a woman.

0:00KT: Welcome to another week in the For Your Reference podcast. And while you are here perusing the reference bibliotheca, notably, interestingly, maybe even as an achievement, after three years on the podcast, the only other Marvel film we have on our main feed was our very first episode, Black Panther. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Absolutely. So definitely go and check that out. Let's get on with the next May maybe well waited second chapter of covering a Marvel film on the main podcast. Yes. We're doing it. Let's get on with the show.

1:05KT: Friends and lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host, KT.

1:05Oti: And Oti.

1:05KT: Hold on to your rings as we are thrust into a world of blood debts, a silent strong sister, and misplaced anger and avoidance of personal responsibility. Follow Morris through the maze of Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings this week.

1:05Oti: Woah.

1:36KT: Get some energy, bro. Where is it? Friends and lovers,

1:41KT: new and forever loving all. Welcome, welcome, welcome. We love and lord all of you. And for those that have been around the podcast, maybe even just one other podcast episode, you will know that I don't I don't necessarily care for Marvel films. And yes, I'm a wanker, but I'm not a wanker because of that. I'm a wanker for many other reasons.

1:41Oti: Marvel wanker.

1:41KT: No, you're the Marvel wanker. But it's not necessarily the films that I gravitate to, but I do try my best. I do get into there.

2:22KT: You know, Oti does promise me lounge experiences in the cinema, so I'm more than happy to oblige. But, you know, that that sigh is definitely not a surprise if you've listened to many of our podcast episodes. So let's get into the general stats and information. We have Destin Daniel Cretton as the director in regards to screenplay. We still have Destin as well as Dave Callaham as well as Andrew Lanham. In way of cast, we have Simu Liu, Tony Leung, Awkwafina, Michelle Yeoh, Benedict Wong, and international student, ever eternal, Ronny Chieng.

3:01Oti: Wow. I'd expected that reception for Michelle Nate. And also Benedict as well.

3:08KT: This film was released in August 2021 in Australian shores recently in cinemas. It had a budget of $224,400,000. Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. That's a lot of dragon scales and undeserved rings. With a worldwide gross of $430,500,000.

3:33Oti: Oh, shit. I thought it wouldn't break even. Really?

3:39KT: I just about Okay. Fuck it out. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Well, if you're in my camps, we're going to have a delicious tasty time. Speaking of our segue king Oti, how did you feel about this film? Feel free to pepper in how you feel about Marvel. But again, if people have listened to our podcast, they probably know how you feel about Marvel films. But just generally, give us your first impressions, my love.

4:02Oti: I didn't know what to expect with the movie. I think at the start, I thought it would be quite intriguing because we have these new characters not really seen in Marvel before.

4:02KT: And in your comic book reading, you haven't come across Shang-Chi?

4:02Oti: I don't think I have.

4:02KT: Okay.

4:02Oti: Then again, my reading is quite limited.

4:24KT: Okay. Tracy Jordan in 30 Rock?

4:27Oti: But wow. I think I enjoyed it to an extent, but then again, I had some qualms with Shaun, and I just couldn't resonate with him as a character. And the choices he makes, I felt like a lot of the scenes were undeserving for what we've been shown for the last two hours. I was like, where did that come from? Mate, work for that shit a bit more. So it was weird. I I really at the at the end of it, I I felt conflicted, but at least we get two additional characters into the MCU

5:03Oti: that we don't really get to see a lot. Yeah. Absolutely.

5:08KT: Well, I I guess, you know, we we are yet to watch Eternals, but you're absolutely right. We are now getting to the wave of being more inclusive, having more representation in the Marvel tapestry, which is great. But it also kind of feels like, you know, when I was younger, my older brothers would play the PlayStation

5:31KT: with their friends and I had to wait until they went to their friend's house to start playing. And so like, I just went in and tried to have fun, but it wasn't the same sort of atmosphere. And now that, you know, the Marvel timeline has pretty much closed, we still have it, but it's definitely not the same sort of feeling. Our beloved patrons and beloved pals at Smoke and Mirrors, they talked about, you know, Marvel having so many more films and so many more offerings.

6:03KT: And I shared a GIF or a GIF, I guess, depending on what of that kid in Matilda being forced to eat mud cake. Like, it's fun initially until you're being force fed all of that sweetness and all of that sort of indulgence. And I guess that's kind of where I'm sitting as well. What what do you think of, Shope, the characters particularly?

6:26Oti: Any any You mean just the first impression? It's like just know you love Awkwafina from a previous project. What did you feel about any sort of did you fan girl or anything like that in this?

6:26KT: I feel like you're trying to trap me.

6:38KT: But we also serious. We also notably haven't covered Raya and the Last Dragon. We have on Patreon, but we haven't done it on the main feed. I love Awkwafina. I do, I love Awkwafina. I also love Ronny Chieng and I'm glad he came at a time that this film was starting to lose me. But I guess just talking very broadly in first impressions, I do agree with you. I didn't necessarily gravitate towards Shang-Chi as a character. I didn't necessarily buy into his motivations.

7:12KT: And when we talk about his character, we can go into more detail about that. But I think I think I think part of part of part of the problem of being part of an existing IP is not doing the groundwork to make us care. Right? Like this is part this on the back of like twenty years of Marvel films. Right? But that doesn't mean we know or care about Shang-Chi as a character. So the groundwork still needs to be laid for our emotional resonance, and that wasn't done. It was just assumed

7:46KT: that we were going to watch this and we were automatically going to cheer for him. Yeah.

7:55Oti: And I think a bit of what without expectation came with a bit of disconnect Yeah. In terms of how he's executed because to me, Shaun just came off as, I get he had a hard upbringing and all that. But then even later on, spoiler spoiler spoiler,

8:08KT: you know, appreciate your daddies, appreciate your daddies, appreciate your daddies. We come to find that his childhood wasn't necessarily the way he presented it initially. So I I don't wanna say gaslighting, but he was Shang-Chi lighting us.

8:23Oti: Wow.

8:24KT: On the strength of the dragon, he was lighting us.

8:26Oti: Wow. Since we're picking about Shaun or Shang-Chi, then we get to see him portray this character that his father was so crap. He's done so many bad things. He ran away from home. To escape his hush, hush father who's a monster. And then when we get to see the side of things from his dad dad's point of view, we're like,

8:53Oti: Mate, I think it's reasonable for him to respond the way he did. You being a kid is there and seeing your dad, mother, pretty much everyone that killed your your your mom Yeah. And it's terrible. It's rough, but I don't know. I don't know what he thought. Maybe he's a kid. He didn't expect his dad to kill them all just there. Was going to go there and give them a tugging tool or something.

9:17KT: Again, welcome friends and lovers. If you are new to the podcast, we don't read you synopsis. Like, you need to do your homework. This is an intermediary discussion. Stop being nasty. Well, if you've watched it and you choose not to watch it and you wanna listen to us, that's absolutely fine as well. But we are absolutely getting to, you know, the meat and potatoes of this film. And that also includes talking about the overarching storyline

9:44KT: as well as the ending. And that's actually what I wanna talk about as well. So focusing on Shang-Chi, like his overarching story, well, really, it's not realized until a couple of scenes in. But once we get to that point, we realize that he's being beckoned back home. He's being beckoned back home. Right? So once he gets back home, we start to see potentially what a storyline's going to be. It kind of felt like him and Xialing, you know, having a sibling, you know, supported, fighting against the evils of their father,

10:21KT: maybe getting some sense of closure, but it was them against their dad. Right? That's kind of what the film felt like. And then we got to a point where the dad's like, no, we need to go and save your mother. Your mother's still alive. And then that's I I guess that's where we decide that's where the storyline is, that they need to go in this ever changing Pan's Labyrinth of it all to get to saving the mom, which we later come to find out as you coined the dementors

10:52KT: that were influencing him. So from that point of view, Shang-Chi's sort of character arc was to be the strength that his family needed. Right? Sounds very noble. And I guess shout outs to Marvel because it did take them a while to use the word honor, which I thought was very progressive. If they needed to say it, at least they waited a while in the film to say it. But, you know, Shang-Chi chose to bear the burdens of his family on trying to find some sort of middle ground

11:25KT: and kind of became like a standoff between him and his dad. And I wanna talk about it in more detail, but just clearly glossing it over now. What I really didn't care for, what I thought really cheapened it was he kind of he was kind of very petulant about the way that he navigated the world. Everything was his dad's fault. Right? His dad fucked him up. And then we later come to find out that him being sent away on that mission was kind of like a catharsis.

11:57KT: Maybe not for him, but it was for his dad absolutely. But also at the same time, Shang-Chi saw his mom like die in front of him.

11:57Oti: No. For him too, because we need to remember his dad has lived for decades.

12:10KT: Centuries.

12:10Oti: Yes, mate. Yeah. So for him to be like, you see your mom getting killed. You stood outside the window, did fuck all. Didn't even go and try and run there crying helplessly. Leave my mom alone.

12:25KT: None of that. I think it was seven though.

12:28Oti: Mate, what were you doing at seven?

12:32KT: Well, not avenging my parents.

12:36Oti: But, you know, this is the mindset he's coming from. Yeah. If you see that your kid you you've experiencing your mom being helpless as you are, you no longer are helpless. You you can actually defend yourself now. But I I get what you're saying. He might not have been able to, like, take down 30 men, but he didn't even seem to have a problem with letting his mom just completely get defeated by all of those men.

12:55KT: And also and maybe and again, this is part of my problem with Marvel films. Maybe it didn't warrant this depth. But even when he was a whole adult, it didn't seem like he was affected by the fact that, first of all, his mom died in front of him. Second of all, he didn't seem to have any conflict.

13:23KT: Not that he should have blamed himself, but just the fact that he was there where it happened. Like the the anti Lin Manuel Miranda, he was in the room where it happened, unfortunately. Right? Like, he just continued living his merry life like nothing fucking happened. I don't know. Maybe that's what healthy progress and healing looks like, but I don't buy it. Yeah.

13:23Oti: I think you know what got me? Yeah. His dad was talking about going to rescue

13:52Oti: the mom Yeah. Behind the gate. Yeah. And then he's like, even if mom was there, do you think mom would want it? Want it. Yeah. Anyway, the way you know? I'm like, mate, your mom met him at his big butt height and still fell in love with him. He should have open handed pimp slapped Shang-Chi because Yeah. Who are you first of all, who are you to even open your mouth to your father like that? And second of all, even in the basis of the film, what do you know about not just the real love, but what do you know about love at all? Aquino love? Oh, he wishes.

14:27Oti: But seriously, the mom got up with dad when he was he was fucking killing everyone and anyone. Yeah. So for you to pretend now that the dad has gone all, you know, revenge like, it's fucking understandable. It's not that he's not killed millions of people before. Yeah.

14:44KT: It's like being a plumber and the sink bursts in your house. Like, you didn't anticipate to need it, but your skill set was very useful. And I guess that's kind of the situation that we're in as well. But again, I don't know if my qualms lie with Shang-Chi. I don't know if my qualms lie with Marvel. I don't know what it is. But if you want to tell a story

15:09KT: about a kid seeing his mom die in front of his eyes, then, yeah, I'm going to need some depth. And as we've covered in Boy, Taika Waititi, our Reference Degustation for 2021, you can cover these deep themes without physically showing that pain. Right? So it is possible to do that if it if it's a ratings issue. But what I didn't understand, and I guess, like, just just as a side note, tonally, how did you feel about this film? Because I feel like it never really landed anywhere. Right? Usually,

15:48KT: the, you know, the slapstick ness of Marvel, I don't really care for it, but I do know that there like, I understand how it appeals to people. Like, even though it doesn't it's not necessarily my thang. Like, I get how people enjoy, you know, the quirky sort of jokes between Spider-Man and Iron Man. Like, I I get that. Right? It it it it's not necessarily my thing, and it is very common in a lot of the Marvel films.

16:15KT: But I don't necessarily feel like it was here. But even though it had a more serious tone, it didn't have the depth that was necessary if you were to cover a film of this sort of serious nature.

16:30Oti: Yeah. It's definitely not Christopher Nolan level. It's somewhere got it's not as quirky as most of the Marvel movies. It's not I it doesn't have the Iron Man quackiness or the Spider-Man's pizzazziness.

16:44KT: It's more just a few throwaway jokes here and there, and some of those didn't really even land. But like, I I don't I'm just because I'm not saying it has to be that way because again, it doesn't appeal to me. It's the formula they've done for What was the voice? What was the tone of this film? In in lieu, if you'll pardon the pun, in Simu Liu of the the quirky sort of humor, what were we being presented with? Think they're trying to A watered down story of revenge.

17:14Oti: Yeah. No. No. I wouldn't say even a watered down story of revenge because it's not a story of revenge per se. Because Simu Liu is our fucking protagonist. He didn't want revenge.

17:24KT: And can we because we said spoiler. Can we talk about it? So the I I guess what's really annoying and that that's why I don't like the gotcha. I don't really like plot twists. I don't really like reveals. Like, I don't like those in films because you're not doing anything, David Blaine or otherwise.

17:44KT: If you present something to me and tell me to believe it and then present more, that's not on me. That's on you, bro. And that's what this film did. We had no other reason to not believe Shang-Chi when he said that he didn't kill, you know, who was responsible for the mom's death and he fled to America. Like, was no reason not to believe him. And then we later find out that that's actually not the case. He did actually kill that person.

18:12KT: He couldn't deal with it and he ran off. If he was going to run off anyway, he should have just ran off. Like, I don't because then that adds an extra layer because as a kid, do quote me if I'm wrong, but I feel like he was like 15. He was very young when he did it. Right? Yeah. So he did what he did. And then apparently, he was well adjusted for the rest of his life. Come on. It makes more sense from the initial reveal

18:39KT: that he didn't do it and he tried to make sense and tried to have any sort of semblance of a normal life as opposed to him actually doing it. Not seeking professional help because again, I know we're not at that depth in this film and then never addressing that trauma and pain for the rest of his life and it never affect him at all.

19:07Oti: Mhmm. It's definitely a weird one in terms of trying to place his character and at least where he'd hit his head spaces because we think that he's trying to fight against every being of being his like his father or away from the teachings of his father, but he did kill that bloke. Yep. He did seek revenge and that's what he was running from. Yeah. He wasn't running from

19:07KT: thank you, Oti.

19:25Oti: He wasn't running from his father. He was running from himself.

19:25KT: Yeah. Our residential daddy. Just like Shang-Chi's daddy because that's what he said to Shang-Chi. He's like, all you do is run. You run from everything in your life and that's exactly it. And I don't think he even realized that that's what he was doing. He kept using his dad as the big bad as opposed to being more introspective and looking at his own actions.

19:50Oti: And this is where we have a qualm with him at least.

19:50KT: Oh, this is where, as opposed to everything else.

19:50Oti: No. No. Because up until the end Mhmm. He holds the father as the big bad. Yep. Up until the father is not, and he's used as we get these flashbacks of the nicer moments that he had with the dad, and I'm like, what the fuck?

20:13KT: No. But even if he felt that way, it doesn't happen that's so flippantly. It's it's it's like

20:19Oti: and this is where I had issues with this movie. Mhmm. There was a lot of those flip switch moments Yeah. Where it's Shang-Chi hasn't trained until since he was 15. But flip switch? He's learned all this stuff. He has one training session with Ying Nan. Flip switch? And he's mastered all the elements. And he can beat his dad. Something he could never have done.

20:41Oti: In fact, in an earlier scene when he was an adult, the first time they met, his dad just pretty much wiped the floor with him.

20:54KT: Friends and lovers, this comes to a very juicy topic that we love addressing in the For Your Reference podcast, power hierarchy. We get that Shang-Chi is the guy and he's the protagonist and was supposed to be cheering for him, So he needs to have a triumphant moment. However, that dilutes the power of his opposition. And in this case, it's his dad. But his dad's been around for thousands of years. It's okay not to be able to best him. It's understandable. Yeah.

21:18Oti: Absolutely. Everyone would have been, yeah, mate. We understand. Your daddy's badass.

21:23KT: Yeah. You tried your best. No.

21:25Oti: No. Fucking turn around and turn the 10 rings as if it's some fucking Dead Man's Gun. Did you watch Dead Man's Gun? It used to be this gun that would be found by random people, and for a second, it will turn their fortunes. But the interesting thing is it'll be some sort of vicissitude where you think it's a fortune, but it fucking ends up in tragedy,

21:47Oti: usually by the death of the person who found it. Oh, So we have these 10 rings, which have been with the dad for whatever fucking long. But- They are not loyal. Flip switch.

21:58KT: Dead Man's Gun. This thing's done on him. Fucking hell. I haven't seen Dead Man's Gun, but based on what you're saying, it sounds like the mythology of the monkey's paw. Shout outs to Jordan Peele because he called his production Monkeypaw Productions. And I guess it's like a a be careful what you wish for sort of sentiment. Right? What I don't understand, like picking up off of that is so there are 10 rings. Yeah. Apparently, half of them were ready to jump ship anyway.

22:28KT: But I don't buy I don't buy that Shang-Chi is at a point where he can, you know, persuade or or helm the power of five of those rings. I don't understand how he was able to do that in the first instance, and you always make fun of me, but it's true. I do need a montage. I know they talk about, you know, Shang-Chi, and they show it a lot that he was trained as a kid.

22:52KT: But are we just saying it's muscle memory? Because that would have been dormant for many decades. Sorry. I don't know how old Shang-Chi is. I'm assuming he I'm I'm assuming he's pushing his thirties, but maybe he's, like, early twenties. I don't know. But he's had it dormant for a very long time, unless it's because muscle memory, and then that explains everything.

23:12Oti: Expecting him to watch Rush Hour 4 and expecting Chris Tucker to have learned everything from, you know, Jackie Chan and just remember everything, you know, muscle memory. Yeah. Why four? Why can't we observe the beauty of the first three? Because Hollywood. Because Hollywood. Because capitalism.

23:30KT: Thank you, Kenya Oti Kenya Barris. They're two Kenyans because you're Kenyan.

23:35Oti: But this is where we have the problem with not even necessarily a problem, where we don't really get to connect with Shang-Chi as much as we want because it's not out of his will that he becomes stronger, that he becomes powerful, that he even understands who he is as a character and as a person that accepts it. It's all external

23:56Oti: things that are causing it. Yeah. It's always this is happening, so you have to respond to this. You have to react to this because, you know, now you're drowning and you're dead. Now you have to remember this shit and come back stronger more than ever because there's a fucking dragon in the sea. Ow, what thoughts?

24:12KT: Can we talk about it, Oti? Can we talk about it? The equivalent of bringing the plot saving dragon near the end of the film is having a film like Whale Rider and the whale never appearing and no one talking about the whale. And then out of nowhere, you have a fighting whale at the end of the movie. Like, I don't understand how this dragon became so integral to the victory and the success of the team,

24:43KT: yet it was never really spoken of. Just kept talking about the rings, the rings, the rings, and then we have, like, Xanadu coming out of nowhere with Olivia Newton-John saving the world. Oh, yeah. Because that made no sense, especially the sense that this this film was over two hours. So there was enough room for lore, at least one sentence or a couple of visualizations that there was a coexistence with dragons, and they're the custodians, and they help, you know, protect the safety.

25:18Oti: To be fair, Nan did speak about, you know, they were they were walking through the timber sort of visualization, r I p the trees.

25:27KT: You don't think it was worth it?

25:30Oti: It looked cool. But they did speak of everything that was going on and how the dragons were kept at bay and how you know? Fine. But it all just felt too much out of nowhere. Yeah. And we know we love our next fucking art, you know? Oscar Isaac, the daddy of American cinema at the moment. Yeah. But man, use it sparingly and use it wisely.

25:55KT: Yeah. No. But it's like, that was so interesting. Why not introduce more of that? For those friends and lovers that have found us because of Marvel in your podcast feeds and this is the first time, we did talk about this in our Repentance episode with the ever eternal Anthony Mackie, the ever eternal Sanaa Lathan, and Forest Whitaker. No. But we talked about this theme because there was a supernatural element that was in Repentance,

26:28KT: but they had never addressed it ever. So it kind of felt like a cheap plot point. And that's kind of how I felt about this dragon because nothing was ever really I we we do love the way that Ying Nan took us through, you know, the tapestry of, you know, the the artisanal wood carvings. But at the same time, there was enough time to breathe and make it more of a point. And we didn't necessarily see that in this film. It was 10 rings, 10 rings, 10 rings,

27:01KT: bad daddy, bad daddy, bad daddy. Oh, good daddy. Oh, dragon. Oh, my sister that hasn't said anything for 10 scenes. Okay. We're cool. Save the day. And then Benedict Wong scoops us up again.

27:16Oti: That's a good segue for talking about the sister. Can we? Wow.

27:22KT: Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. I I think we both called it very early that we were going to find her in the underground. I always like to refer to Spartacus with Ana Mais being in the pit, the equivalent of oh, yeah. This she reminds me of Azula. Like, this this film very She has Azula energy. Yeah. Friends and Lovers. This film really had parallels for me in particular for Avatar and The Last Airbender. And when I talk about Azula, we're talking about Zuko's younger sister who is, I think, undisputably more talented

28:02KT: than her older brother. So than Zuko or in this case, Shang-Chi. Like, she was just like, undeniably, there's no way you can even argue that the older brother is talented. Right? So we have Xialing and she is super talented. And I don't know, like we we see it in film, but I in the 2020s, you know, for all of the surface level sort of storytelling, I don't really like I can acknowledge if we're looking at a film in the seventies and eighties,

28:37KT: fine. But if we're in the twenty twenties and we get surface level storytelling, it is more egregious to me. And what I mean by in this particular instance is we have Shang-Chi as the male protagonist. Yeah. Fine. Cool. However, his younger sister who happens to be a female character is much more interesting, has much more depth, unfortunately doesn't have more dialogue. But she presents a more interesting proponent for where our resonance can lie. And I guess just recapping for her as a character,

29:11KT: she was much younger. She was much younger than Shang-Chi. So let's just estimate that Shang-Chi was about 15 when he left and we thought he didn't kill someone, but he did. Right? But he was 15 years old. She was much younger than that. Right? She saw her brother leave and he said that he would come back. She waited decades.

29:30KT: Right? It got to a point where she realized she's just going to do her own thing. She's going to stop because you know what? You know what can help people get through a day, but also keep them frozen in time? Hope. And that's what Shang-Chi gave her. But she got to a point where she was like, nah, I'm not checking for you anymore. You're not checking for me. You're not coming back. I'm going to take care of myself. And that's what she did. But she was under, you know, her dad's guardianship

30:00KT: for much longer than that. And also that even in the in the film, so I guess if we wanna give accolades, it was in the film Because she wasn't a male, she she didn't even get the privilege of being part of the training. She had to teach herself.

30:16Oti: Yep. In the darkness.

30:18KT: She had to teach herself. She had to move in the shadows, man. And it's like, this is a much more compelling story. So why is Shang-Chi, and in this case, is a male character, why is he getting in the way of a more interesting female character?

30:32Oti: Fact. I found her really interesting. Think a lot of her scenes and the fact that she didn't blame anyone. Yes. She took it all upon. You know what? We've had a fucking rough childhood.

30:46Oti: We are where we are, but I own who I am.

30:46KT: Exactly.

30:50Oti: Mhmm. I don't go about blaming daddy for fucking everything. Yeah. You know? And the fact that we get to see her transverses world, knowing full well that she even fucking beat her brother a couple of times. Mhmm. I was expecting her to be more or at least for us to see more of her. I even have some fucking more words. But no, that didn't happen. That was really, really disappointing because I thought she was the saving grace for this movie.

31:15KT: Yeah. You know who wasn't the saving grace for this film? Trevor Slattery. We do love and lord of Ben Kingsley in the For Your Reference household, but he was so unnecessary.

31:27Oti: Yeah. We didn't need it. We didn't need his character out of it. Unnecessary.

31:31KT: I do understand there is an architecture to the Marvel Cinematic Universe. And I'm sure that he even is embedded in the Iron Man sort of storylines. I don't doubt that cause I know how meticulous the storylines are. However, he didn't need to be here. Also Razor Fist didn't need to be here either.

31:31Oti: Yeah. I see where you're going with that.

31:31KT: I don't know what you're saying. I'm just talking about two separate characters, man.

32:00Oti: Well,

32:01KT: yeah, he did nothing. He really didn't add any value to this. I think he was more of a comedic fucking relief if it Then we was could have had Morris. We could have had the little fluffy cute Morris. We didn't need Ben Kingsley giving us our Macbeth sort of We didn't need that. Yeah. Morris could have done enough. Yeah. Like, it felt indulgent. They just wanted to have him there so that he just recited these lines. Yeah.

32:27Oti: I can't fight with you on that.

32:29KT: I'm sure you'll find something to fight over. How do you feel about Katy's character?

32:29Oti: I understand her character that they wanted to bring such a strong

32:38Oti: performer in Awkwafina into the vase. Okay. Because I was like, Katy wasn't a strong character. But then they rely on, hey, let's just give her a bow and arrow. I'm like, fuck sakes. What does that say about fucking any other Hawkeye projects out there? If if if if you don't have any fucking special abilities, bow and arrow it is for you. You can get your own. Well, yeah. I suppose. No. Seriously, literally. She fucking made an incredible shot at the end Because Marvel. With fucking one day training. Because Marvel. Because Marvel?

33:15Oti: After war. Something that we've seen Hawkeye fucking they've tried to make this, Hawkeye is super special and he can do all these things with the bow and arrow because, you know, we don't discriminate. It's like everyone needs to do a job, but if you're not good enough, you can get the arrow. But now they come in because this is fucking still MCU. We don't even care to talk about DC here. Yeah. And then they just slash. They just slap bow and arrow.

33:41KT: You can do it, girl. Come on now. I'm not a scientist or whoever is qualified to do the calculations. But we we talked earlier about Shang-Chi and how he had that pole and was it dragon scales that were on the pole? It wasn't even throughout the whole pole. Right? And we thought that they were just trying to conserve the the the dragon scales. So I guess alluding to that point, if they're trying to save resources because they couldn't afford to put dragon scales across the whole fucking pole, then I don't believe

34:15KT: those arrows were strong enough to hit at the the velocity

34:20Oti: and with the I'm assuming the arrowhead would have been dragon scale.

34:24KT: No. But like, if they're skimping

34:27Oti: on the the Don't wanna skip on the arrowhead though, rude.

34:31KT: No. But I'm saying with Shang-Chi and the the staff that he had, they didn't even cover the whole thing. So how can they even afford to do a good arrow if they if we're talking about hierarchy and the arrows are at the bottom, they're not getting the most attention and the most resource, are they? Are we playing Settlers of Oti Catan right now? I'm

34:51Oti: saying arrows and staffs are fucking different weapons. You can conserve the dragon skin on the staffs and do the ends fine. And it's weird that everybody fucking fought them, and all they did, they did all that he tried to do was fucking hit the the ends. Fucking hit the middle. That thing is fucking weak. You can't have because fucking science doesn't make sense in this, have both ends super strong and the middle fucking weak.

35:16KT: How does that fucking walk anyway? That's what I'm saying. Can't be beside myself. But that's what I'm saying. If their staffs were that weak, how would their arrows even because at the distance that she was to make that life changing, plot changing arrow, I don't think it would have been strong enough.

35:30Oti: It would have because this they don't they don't skimp on the arrow. That's not even a qualmate.

35:40KT: Also, qualmate I had with Katy's character is not me, but Katy.

35:47Oti: Interchangeable.

35:48KT: Mhmm. How dare you? She became like American commentary or like Western commentary. Like anytime something would happen and this was a crime that you had that you specifically pointed out. Right? Anytime something would happen, she would need to give like a Western lens to it. And I get and we, you know, listen to our 4 Blocks episode. It is very enjoyable, the TV show, and specifically our splooshes in our 4 Blocks podcast episode. We talk about the difference between ethnicity as well as nationality and, you know, the Americanisms of the of it all

36:29KT: and also being Chinese as well. But I it got a bit cringey to me. And I guess if you wanna share the specific qualm that you had

36:39Oti: I had the qualm that you're fucking in Marvel universe. With a fucking talking raccoon and a talking tree. You went underground to see Xialing fight. Yeah. There was a fucking beast there. Yeah. We saw Benedict Wong there. Oh, yes, please. He fucking teleported with the beast there in front of your eyes, not batting an eye. Yes, please. And then the moment when Wu says, I think my wife's speaking to me, they're like, oh, how is that even possible? You've

37:10Oti: just fucking seen a million things that are not fucking possible. You live in a fucking Marvel universe. There's fucking Iron Mans and and Thors and what the fuck? Thanos made the fucking half you even referenced it. Yeah. Half the fucking world fucking disappeared. How do you explain that shit? Yeah. And then you're still trying to make us feel as if we're fucking rooted in some sort of fucking reality. Fucking we are beyond that.

37:10KT: Maybe.

37:10Oti: We're beyond that fucking point.

37:10KT: Maybe maybe they believe there's like a purity in their lore.

37:39Oti: There's no fucking purity. It's all fucking tarnished now.

37:39KT: I agree.

37:39Oti: You can't come and say, oh, it can't have a voice because of mate, you have Benedict Wong there. Doctor's fucking strange. He performs fucking magic. Yeah. You know all this. It's no fucking mystery. Yeah. It's part of the universe. Mhmm. Clearly, you know who he is and everything that he's done. Mhmm. So again,

38:05Oti: pull back on the fucking disbelief and trying to root us into some sort of fucking sort of reality because there fucking ain't none. Yeah. And just buy into it because you're living in an uncharted territory now. Yeah.

38:20KT: Like there were many examples and what you're referring to is when they get locked up underground and Katy is talking about how, you know, when we showed them the path, the moving labyrinth of it all, and she was she was talking about how she couldn't really process the fact that the the the the path was being laid for them. After everything that they had witnessed,

38:41Oti: that's what she's having a problem with. Everything they witnessed and everything they've referenced. They've talked about superheroes before the start. Yeah. And I'm like, exactly. You've mentioned a fucking superhero. Yeah. That should suspend all fucking disbelief you have going forward on anything. Yeah. It's fucking anyway, it felt this movie felt like fucking Kendall from Succession was given the Ten Rings because I felt going to speak to Shang-Chi for a bit, he felt very Kendall to me. L to the OT. Just spoiled

39:16Oti: and rooted and fucking, you know, my dad is the root cause of everything that's wrong with my life.

39:24KT: I'm feeling spicy. I haven't mentioned classism for a while. I believe if Shang-Chi and his family were poor and they were removed from the world and he had witnessed his mom dying in front of him, that revenge plot would have been way more laser focused. Yep. Speaking of, I didn't see any sort of helpers on the compound.

39:47Oti: Transcended rich folks, mate. Well, who's cleaning the undies? Not Shang-Chi. They've got the 10 rings for that. Topical clean, mate.

40:03KT: Every For Your Reference is a box of chocolates, friends and lovers. You never know what Oti you're going to get. Let's talk about the ending, Oti. I forgot. I forgot with Marvel films and I said films, so don't come fight me. Come and fight us in our emails, Oti answers those. But I've forgotten these Marvel films how Thanos heavy handed the foreshadowing of a sequel is because man, the fact that they couldn't even finish a sentence because they wanted you to watch another film of this was so apparent. I felt so disgusted.

40:41Oti: Of course, were trying to set you thought this would just be it?

40:41KT: No, but we know there is. Like, we know that there's a future timeline. Mahershala, we're looking at you for Blade eventually. Like, we know that there's going to be more films. So at least in the fantasy of this film, I was hoping to at least just but again, again, that's on me because it's always been that way. It's just been a while and I forgot.

40:41Oti: Yeah. That's on you. I fully expected something like this. Although I fully accept that it's on you.

41:15Oti: And that too. But it makes sense. They're trying to get us down more to the root of the 10 rings, trying to expand the story further. They're bringing in the heavy guns. We see Bruce Banner, who you love, Captain Marvel. And, you know, it's it's exciting. It's exciting to see what they can do with this character out once they've gotten this first film

41:40Oti: out of the way. We get to see a lot of these pilots focused solely on the origin and at least that's done. We get to know Shang-Chi now has the 10 rings. We get to see that

41:40KT: Does he?

41:40Oti: Yeah, he does.

41:54KT: Okay. I guess so. But it's like, I don't know if he's fully accepted that they're his now.

41:54Oti: No. He was told there's no going back. Your lives have changed.

41:54KT: I don't know why I don't know why, to be fair, Katy was in that conversation as well. Because No. But but to be fair, that's the theme of this film. A lot of it is unearned. The dragon no. No. No. No. The dragon was unearned. Shang-Chi gaining the 10 rings. Even him gaining the five rings, I would say was unearned.

42:24KT: And he actually so now the legacy is passed on to him. Right? I feel bad for Wenwu. He shouldn't have sacrificed himself for Shang-Chi. But anyway, that's a story that will never get addressed again. That's his Joker story. Todd Phillips, pay attention. I just it was very unearned. And even with Katy, like, was very unearned. It's like having Spider-Man's little friends,

42:48Oti: you know, top of They they call they don't get called up to Iron Man's penthouse. Yeah. Oh, you're not part of the gang because you slapped someone when Spider-Man was down. No.

43:00KT: Isn't that the breadth of Spider-Man's powers anyway? Come on now. That and pointing at other Spider-Man's. I'm dabbling in your playground, nerds. Come and fight me. Wow. I do have a final question. And friends and lovers, for those of you that have made it this far, we love you so much. And I'm sure those that really love us are the ones that are still listening. So I am going to ask the hard questions. We have talked about black cinema lately. Now we're focusing on Asian cinema. I personally

43:35KT: so I'm going to throw you an olive branch, Oti. So feel free to hold onto it or I guess let me fall into the volcano Of Mordor. I'm pretty sure I did that wrong again. Come and fight me nerds.

43:35Oti: We'll just call it the eagles come and rescue you, mate. It's alright.

43:35KT: Nice. Nice. I found it hard to take this film as a superhero film. And I don't know if it was so embedded in what felt like existing lore, but then at the same time, Thor also leverages off Nordic mythology.

44:08KT: But then I don't know. I think it's more of a a timing thing because I never necessarily saw Thor as a hero, but he was around when all the other Avengers are around and he was part of a collective. So I guess what I'm getting to is I found it hard to find superhero elements because the lore for Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings, it already felt so established

44:34KT: that there weren't really any moments for whether it was Marvel specific, but there were really, I didn't feel like there were any sort of moments for necessarily superhero sort of moments. And I guess ultimately, that's where my qualm lies because for me, it doesn't feel like a superhero film and it doesn't feel strong enough to be leveraging ancient Chinese lore. Right? So how did how did you feel watching this film? Did you ever feel like it was a superhero film, or did you also find it hard to dissociate

45:07KT: what felt like lived in lore, whether it's fictional or not, but lived in lore compared to the superheroisms of it all?

45:14Oti: I don't think it felt lived in. The aspects of the movie that felt a bit superheroism, you know, the the Shang-Chi taking it upon himself to fight the to fight Razor Fist in the bus. That was very, very common denominator superhero stuff.

45:29KT: So are you saying Bob Odenkirk is a superhero in Nobody? Because he's Yep. Oh, okay. If that's how you if that's how you classify superheroes,

45:40Oti: then fine. No. No. It's

45:40KT: That's just so like normal action to me.

45:40Oti: Yes. It's a normal action, but it's the spontaneity of it and the realization that it it wasn't planned. And and he was doing it out of you know, he just smacked Katy, I'm gonna step up and it turned into something bigger at least for me then.

45:40KT: If you wanna reveal your fantasies of me getting smacked and you having to beat people up Oti then that's fine.

45:40Oti: Yep. Other than that, it felt

46:11Oti: once we got off that and we started delving into the Shang-Chi's character, that sort of felt a bit lost because then we were we were being exposed to his psyche, which I didn't really reason it was and I really didn't vibe with it because I felt that a lot of it was just blame dad and that's all. And no personal responsibility. Yeah. Yeah. And to a point where you're like, mate, you're what? Fucking twenty twenty five or some shit. I don't know. Or or further. Or authority. I don't know. But fuck's

46:43Oti: sakes, man. You know, take some responsibility. You're old enough to know that it's not always dad. Dad might have fucked up, but shit, mate. You know? There's some in betweens in there.

46:43KT: So it felt like a superhero film to you?

46:43Oti: A bit. A bit at the start until it didn't.

46:43KT: Which is a yes?

46:43Oti: It's a yes, no. Maybe.

47:05KT: You're making me feel like a lawyer in A Few Good Men, like

47:11Oti: Actually, you're the lawyer and I'm the audience. That's that's a better way to frame it. No. No. No. Like I told you, I think I didn't mince my words. I said that it felt like a superhero movie when when he was acting unknowingly, but then when it's turned into us delving into the character deeper, then it wasn't out of, I need to take action to save whoever or I need to take action to save my family. It was, oh, I'm just gonna do this because I fucking hate dad's guts.

47:40KT: Yeah. Okay. I don't necessarily agree. But if it feels like a superhero film to you, you have more stake in this. So I'm not gonna fight you. And that's alright too. Thank you friends and lovers for joining us riding the unearned dragon. We're gonna finish off in a segment we call For Your Reference, Oti.

47:59Oti: I'm gonna reference the Raya and the Last Dragon. Get your dragon fix in there as well.

48:06KT: I get my dragon fix from Sisqo.

48:08Oti: Oh.

48:11KT: I will reference a more enjoyable, knows what it's doing hero show, The Boys. Oh, okay. I think you're about due for your monthly dose of Mother's Milk, Oti. If you'd like to pull the teeth and see what milk comes out on Twitter and Instagram, we're at for your f pod. Write us an email, I l o f for podcast dot com. We're also on sign the petition for Ronny Chieng and Shang-Chi in Shang-Chi two. If you'd like to leave a rating and review, and we'll see you guys next week. Such a dickhead. See you.

48:51KT: Wankers.