Million Dollar Baby – Money in the Swanks

Full transcript of Million Dollar Baby – Money in the Swanks.

0:00KT: Howdy. Welcome back to For Your Reference. We are starting off with a Patreon shout out. Woo hoo. What? What? We just launched our Patreon. So we wanna say thank you so much to even if you've just visited the page because naming those tiers was a good old time even with the unauthorized sentiment. Mhmm. So we definitely wanna give a shout out to well, within twenty four hours, we got a nice, cute, delicious, very handsome

0:29KT: bunch of Patreons, Oti.

0:29Oti: We sure did.

0:29KT: So definitely wanna give a shout out. Kolby Mac, if you follow us in linear time, we did do an episode a couple of episodes ago with Kolby. Yo. Yo. Yo. Yo. Yo. Yo. He was our first Patreon as well. So thank you so much. Kolby Told Me podcast. We will put the link in the show notes. Make sure you check him out. And also check out our Power episode if you've watched Power and you wanna have a discussion about it. Our second Patreon was Lucas from Wonder Soul.

1:03KT: The Bob Ross of the podcasting world.

1:03Oti: Oh, I love Wonder Soul.

1:03KT: We love Wonder Soul so much, and he's so supportive. And, you know, look out next year. We're going to have a collab, which will be quite nice.

1:03Oti: Will goals as well, mate. I'm trying to reach there, so hopefully.

1:03KT: Me too. And I think I wanna beat you too, though. We also have our lovable one third of the holy trinity of the podcasting world, Ben from Filmbusters.

1:34Oti: Oh,

1:35KT: Ben. There's a theme here, Oti.

1:35Oti: Is there?

1:35KT: Yes. Ben introduced at least KT to Lebowski, yourself actually. Yeah. Yes. So make sure you check out that episode of The Big Lebowski with the big Ben Zowski. One solo star has a podcast and he does a lot of creative stuff. Ben also has a podcast with Filmbusters, and he writes really primo poignant movie reviews as well. And to round it all off, round the world to Australia, we also have Dem Fancy Dinosaurs as well. Oh,

2:15Oti: dinosaurs.

2:17KT: Who knew they still existed in Australia? So Nick and Kyle and the crew, thank you so much. So, yes, all of these lovely people have podcasts and they're amazing and it's Primo stuff, so we'll put the link in the show notes. Now we will delight you in Quid Pro Mo with Wonder Soul and also Dem Fancy Dinosaurs. Wonder Soul. Wonder Soul. Wonder Soul.

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4:17KT: Hey, friends and lovers. Welcome back to For Your Reference. You got your host, KT.

4:17Oti: And Oti.

4:17KT: And hot diggity dog. What an episode we have for you today.

4:27Oti: Oh, oh, oh. Can't wait for this.

4:30KT: Right? And I'm not KT Lang, unfortunately. And, apparently, I can't go out dancing without yelling along to all of the songs that are playing at the discotheque. So if you're out for a dance, come and call me, but it's not great for podcasting. And we also got a few tears in this as well. So that's that's why I'm a bit more husk than sexy husk today, unfortunately. Today, we are covering it is it is undisputedly, if you'll pardon the pun, a classic. Is it not so? It is a classic. 2004, Million Dollar Baby.

5:08KT: Directed by Clint Eastwood, no less. And he also won an award, an Oscar for that. The screenplay by Paul Haggis. Haggis. And this is adapted from short stories from F.X. Toole who was a boxer trainer as well. Yeah. Like I mentioned, it did have quite a few awards. So before we get into the stats, I just wanna mention that four Oscars in 2005, best motion picture. Mhmm. Hilary Swank, thank goodness, got Oscar for her leading role. Morgan Freeman also got an Oscar for his role. He deserves an Oscar just for breathing.

5:49Oti: Right?

5:50KT: Yep. His narration really tied together this film, but we will come to that. And then also, like I mentioned, Clint Eastwood won for directing. Let's get into the stats. 2004, quite a modest budget for 2004 as well. $30,000,000. Who? Yeah. Do you wanna guess the worldwide gross?

6:12Oti: Oh, I'd say I'd say

6:16Oti: 90 mil.

6:16KT: Where are we where what planet are you on? What what Rick and Morty multiverse are you in, sir? No. $216,700,000.

6:27Oti: Thank you so hell I was way off.

6:30KT: And again, thank goodness you're not at the helm.

6:33Oti: I just thought the time, you know, 2004,

6:36Oti: how many people were going to the cinema back then?

6:36KT: Oh, I hope there's not a multiverse out there where I do the editing because it's just not gonna happen, is it? Not at all. But you know what did happen? This film. Let's dive into the cast Oti before we get into our first impressions. Mhmm. Just a little sprinkling, just a bit of a peppering of what this episode will entail. Clint Eastwood Mhmm. Hilary Swank Mhmm. Morgan Freeman

7:05KT: Mhmm. These are people we know. And then we started to realize there were quite a lot of heavy hitters in this film. Yeah. Jay Baruchel, I fucking love him. He's solid. Oh, I just want him in my pocket. I just want him in my shoelace. I want him everywhere. Mike Colter, who's your Luke Cage Mhmm. Which you got correct and Oti deserves accolades. If you're having a beverage, take a sip for Oti because he doesn't really place people a lot. We also had Anthony Mackie as well and Michael Pena

7:40KT: off the top of our heads. But we we will get into the cast and what all of that means. But let's start off with first impressions.

7:48Oti: So this is the second time I've watched the movie. The first time back then when it came out, I watched it with my brother. And I think I sort of just didn't understand the gravitas Uh-huh. Of the story and exactly what they were trying to put out there. I'd just blame that solely on me being young and dumb.

7:48KT: Well, you're still one of those things.

7:48Oti: Oh, young. Thank you.

8:11KT: That proves the other thing.

8:15Oti: Oh, just watching it the second time yesterday with you and it moved me to tears. It did both of us actually and wow. It's been a while since I felt completely satisfied after watching a movie. Like I felt the narrative just came through, the allegories used in this, like bloody hell. It it was just amazing writing and the fact that you read at the end of this that Clint Eastwood pretty much did everything including

8:41Oti: composing the bloody song in this. Like, what else what else do you need from a movie? I thought you wanna spoil something. That's why I was shouting spoilers. No spoilers for me here today. Well, at least for the first five minutes, mate. There will be spoilers later on. Don't worry. We'll break you in nice and well. Make sure you're well lubricated.

8:59KT: But, yeah, I was completely impressed by it. It's surprising. So did you watch it around the time that it came out? Yeah. It's surprising that something that was so fulfilling, as you said, it didn't last with you because I would I will never forget this viewing experience.

9:17Oti: Oh, was just a weird time in my life. I guess I just didn't give it much attention.

9:22KT: Was it in between the hundredth time of watching Baby Boy or Yeah.

9:29KT: And that's Oti's experience just rolled up into one.

9:29Oti: I felt like I've missed something really great in my life or having watched this

9:36Oti: or not having realized how good this movie was up until yesterday when I when we rewatched it. And I I was like, oh, this is such a great film. And then it got really sad in the last two thirds. And I'm like, why didn't you warn me that this was a sad film? Yeah it is sad but the the beauty of it is that by the end of the movie you start wrapping a lot of things in your mind and piecing a lot of pieces and you're thinking deeper about the movie itself and being like woah you know. You can watch it and think of it one way like let's say

10:08Oti: Morgan Freeman's narration in this. Yeah. And then by the end of it, you're like bloody hell.

10:14Oti: It just transforms how the movie is perceived at it. It's a tasty morsel that you you didn't know that you wanted but you get and you're surprised that you got it. Because a lot of the times we watch movies and we never really get the same sort of Crescendo. Crescendo. And the fact that we'd watch this off the back of watching Knives Out, which was not one of the best things done in my opinion. And I think that all the hype is just more so to do with of the amount of stars it has.

10:14KT: That's some sharp commentary.

10:14Oti: No. I'm just saying if Knives Out had a low budget or whatever, a cast that wasn't all a list, trust me, it wouldn't have gotten half the attention it got. But just watching this made me know exactly why we're doing this podcast and why we love watching movies. And just off the back of that,

11:00KT: in regards to Knives Out, I was going to mention that too because we have you know, as as much as we try, we are a yes. We are learned, but we do try and be an organized sort of operation in the For Your Reference household. So we do try and schedule what our episodes are going to be, particularly if people want to, you know, watch ahead of time what episodes we're going to be covering. So we had,

11:25KT: you know, a really shitty week. And we were like, okay. As much as we love Adewale and as much as we love Damson Idris, we're not gonna do Farming this week because we had a really shitty week. We want something fun and thrilling with intrigue. So we went to go and watch Knives Out and we were severely cut off from any sort of enjoyment.

11:45KT: And I'm not even gonna say pardon the pun because it's not worth it. Right? And you know one of the problems is, like, when you figure out a movie by halfway through

11:45Oti: Dude, we didn't figure it out. They literally presented it to us.

11:45KT: No. Spoiler spoiler spoiler. We're not going to say what the spoiler is, but it's how is it a whodunit

12:03Oti: when they present something to you that's pretty much one half of it, and it was pretty easy to detect the other half of it, like, to deduce exactly what's gonna happen afterwards.

12:03KT: It's the constant

12:14KT: turns, and it's the constant twists in regards to a whodunit that makes it so thrilling. You you you pretty much suspect everyone right until the end. And I think that's as much as you're going to get in regards to a Knives Out review. When we have our celebratory one year episode, we will have it in memoriam because it killed all of our feelings and all of our hearts. And Knives Out is going to be on there because that was a fucking mess. And Rian is disgusting. And

12:43KT: it you know what? I haven't seen a bad review for Knives Out yet, but I feel like everyone's getting paid and we're not getting paid.

12:50Oti: Throw us the money, mate. We'll change your tunes. Nah. Not even for this.

12:56KT: So so let let's go back. But, essentially, that that is the place that we're coming from. And we're like, okay. So, obviously, we need to do an episode, but we just wanted to watch something that was good. And I'm not sure if where people feel because this was, like, over ten years ago. Yeah. Crazy how time moves. My knees are hurting, but time moves along, apparently. And we just wanted to watch something good, and this is where we landed upon, my friends and lovers. And what a fulfilling experience. Before we even get into

13:27KT: the characters, let's just talk about, you know you know, the cinematography, let's talk about the soundtrack, and let's talk about the narrative as a whole. I'd like to hear your first impressions of this, though. I always knew it was around. I always knew the film was there. I knew that awards were won. I actually never really knew much about Hilary Swank either. And then she kinda disappeared. The last film I saw her in was when she was being like the Michelle Pfeiffer and like teaching inner city kids

13:58KT: Yeah. With the R and B singer Mario. That was really the last time I remember seeing her in something.

13:58Oti: I think I saw her in

14:06Oti: Gerard Butler sort of movie, I think. Oh. Oh. Was Oh. It was a rom com.

14:14KT: But yeah. With Hilary Swank? Yeah.

14:16Oti: Oh, how the tides have changed. Or maybe it wasn't Gerard Butler, but it was a rom com with someone. We're a film podcast, guys.

14:24KT: If if you were wondering whether you should subscribe or not, this is the time. Yeah. So I never really seen anything that Hilary Swank's in. Clint Eastwood, wow. We watched The Good, Bad, and The Ugly maybe a couple of months ago. First of all, what a face. But second of all, what a voice. My my throat's been hurting and I was struggling watching him talk.

14:53KT: And then yeah. And then Morgan Freeman, like, you know you're in for a good time. It had all of the ingredients. And, you know, sometimes if you have too many big names, it can get in the way, which we've just given a very good example of. But it was great. I really I really liked the way that the scale of this film, the story that was being told was actually quite simple. Mhmm. There wasn't a lot of theatrics that was going on in regards to the storytelling. Yeah. It was a very simple story

15:25KT: of an underdog Mhmm. But with pure grit Yeah. And guts and really just pushing ahead. And that's what really drove this film to brilliance. In regards to the directing, I light and shade. Like, I feel like Jordan Peele went to the Clint Eastwood School of Directing. Like, there was so much dark shadows in this, and I don't know if that was a style back then or if that if that's Clint Eastwood's thing, but it was it felt like deliberately

15:58KT: dark and shade and light in weird places. But when when Hilary Swank's character was training late at night and you had Morgan Freeman standing there but his face was in the dark,

16:10KT: you could hear him talking. So you knew it was him. So I don't understand what that sort of illusion is

16:10Oti: stepped forward and then his face was illuminated and the rest of his body was blacked out. I just appreciated it. It's sort of an

16:23Oti: artistic take to just filming.

16:23KT: Yeah. And but again, that's that's just a baby qualm. It's it's not a major foundation Cool. Of

16:32Oti: You're welcome.

16:33KT: I thought we weren't gonna fight. Oh, that was just 300 episode. Yeah.

16:38Oti: Knives up, mate. Gloves up. Ready. Vomit.

16:41KT: Vomit out. That's what it is. Let's go to the soundtrack. So Clint Eastwood contributed to that as well. I really liked it. You know, I feel like I personally like two different types of soundtracks. There's a soundtrack that, you know, really embodies the intention and the key message of the film. And it's it's very much at the forefront of your viewing experience. Yeah. This was a different sort of soundtrack. It really melded into the background.

17:14KT: And there were a lot of times that I didn't even realize that there was any sort of score because it's so beautifully weaved itself into the dialogue. Yeah. Into the the fully satisfying character development on a lot of characters actually.

17:32Oti: I loved it. It brought a lot of emotion, showed a love of heart especially when it came to interactions between Frankie and Maggie. Mhmm. It just created that sort of ambiance that you really loved and it showed it it played into the emotions of how exactly Frankie felt for Maggie

17:52KT: Mhmm. Without necessarily having to say anything. A 100%. And let's focus on Maggie. So she we see her waitressing Mhmm. For a lot of the film. Yeah. And she's you know what? She is one of the most admirable sort of characters, and she was so perfectly placed as the protagonist of this film. Yeah. You know, we start to see the the lack of nurture in the nature nurture sort of discussion. And she had everything going wrong for her. You know what I mean? When

18:29KT: people have everything going wrong against them, first of all, it's understandable if they wanna sit and watch the world burn, but she didn't. No. She pulled herself up and she tried to make something of herself. Right? And then you have really resonating, maybe not fully resonating, but on some level you can relate to her, you know, struggling, you know, with her coin jar and even, you know, taking the steak when she was a waitress so she could take it back home and have something to eat. Maybe not on that, like, literal

19:06KT: sort of example, but we've all been through times where financially we're struggling. Yeah. You know what I mean? And you need to decide how how far you're going to extend yourself more than you thought you ever would. And I really I really love that that's what we focused on. And we actually got to know her before we knew of her struggle. Yeah. Because that plays even more to the credit to her character. Because they really could've, you know because I think it was Morgan Freeman's character when he was doing his narration.

19:41KT: You know, there was one thing that Maggie knew, she was trash. Yeah. Right? Yeah. It you know, a lot of the time no offense. When I think of, like, trailer trash, I think of, like, 8 Mile Mhmm. Of, like, Eminem. And so it the story very much could have been from that point of view showing this is where she came from and she's pulling herself out of there. Right? But we started the film from just her wanting to get in, get her hands dirty,

20:12KT: and really try and make something of herself. Yeah. And then as the film unfolded, we started to see how the fuck did you even get where you are today from where you started. Mhmm. Right? So, you know, the the way it was introduced when she was talking to Eddie's character, Morgan Freeman's character, she was saying my brother's in jail. Yep. My sister cashes checks for a kid that's not alive anymore which is quite sad. Mhmm. We didn't really get much about that but it just it's more of a peppering on the sister. Yeah.

20:46KT: The dad is no longer with them and the mom is well, if you've watched the film, the mom is the mom. Yeah. Right? And there's there's quite a lot of complexity that comes into that as well. But, essentially, you know, she shares that part of her. Mhmm. Right? After we had started to get to know her. And I you know what? It really is a craft. Being able to write a narrative, whether it's a short stories or whether it's a film, you really have to choose your moment. It's a very conscious sort of organism

21:27KT: to choose when to reveal parts of the story because it really tailors the viewing experience that we have. Yeah. So when she is talking to Eddie and she's pretty much sharing, you know, everything that she's gone through and how she has to make it, I already got emotional over there and that was quite early in the film. If you do it right and if it's acted well, there there is there is nothing that I can't relate to. Yeah. And that's a challenge. Feel free to find a character that is acted well, written well,

22:02KT: presented well. I will always find a way to resonate Mhmm. With wholly realized characters.

22:08Oti: Yeah and and I love that especially when it perseverance is like one of the major themes in this perseverance in terms of not giving up and exactly what you're dreaming of perseverance in terms of dealing with tough choices and hard choices that you have to make. Yep. It's such a beautifully written story where you you get to see Maggie who is struggling and she's 31. Mhmm. She's been waiting tables, but she knows that when she's boxing, that's where she's happy. That's where she is herself. Yeah.

22:49Oti: And the fact that she didn't let anyone tell her that it's impossible Mhmm. Just made it more appealing, at least to me, in terms of not only rooting for her to see how she would succeed and seeing how the journey takes her. Because at the end of the day, we knew that Maggie and Frankie would eventually team up because Frankie is dealing with his demons as well. Oh, yes. He has he has a daughter Katie

23:19KT: And Hey. Is it KT Eastwood? Is it is he my Eastwood daddy? Reply to your father, mate. But let's let's talk about Clint Eastwood. He has had an illustrious career. Right? I haven't partaken in all of his career. But I in what I've seen with him, he seems to gravitate towards characters of, like, the hardened old man, you know, that that is changed by the protagonist usually. Right? And the the emotional balance that needed to be spent between Clint Eastwood and also Hilary Swank is something that actors of lesser Cree

24:05KT: would not be able to achieve. Yeah. The emotion and the, you know, the the the somberness and the uneasiness that they had between these two characters, the dynamics between the two, it was a delight. Yeah. It was a delight to witness. And to be able to balance that in, you know, in a story that takes you all the way through to character development. I understand now why Clint Eastwood is shouting at chairs because it's a way to debrief from the emotional balance that he has to spend in this film.

24:45KT: It's just affected him years and years later shouting at all these chairs.

24:48Oti: Yep.

24:50KT: For sure. And if you understand that reference, you are most welcome friends and lovers. It's For Your Reference.

24:56Oti: Like, if if you told me to name a boxing movie that I loved, I feel like I'd leave this one out because I feel like it transcends a mere boxing flick. It's so much more, just more than a symbolism of boxing because I feel like they used it as a symbol to illustrate exactly the struggles in life that one has to perceive or to endure like we have this moment between Frankie and Maggie and Frankie Maggie tells Frankie about

25:24Oti: his father and the dog. Mhmm. Oh, Jesus. Yeah. And and at the moment, you don't really realize the gravitas of that conversation.

25:31KT: Well, it's foreshadowing.

25:33Oti: Yeah. It's for it's it's foreboding. It's It's foreboding more than anything. And It's forthcoming as well. Because you don't really well, I didn't really think of it that much.

25:44KT: But that's that's good because it wasn't blatantly obvious. Yeah. It wasn't blatantly obvious. It was it was imparting a piece of yourself Mhmm. Of your past. Mhmm. I think we did say spoilers. I and, you know, some sometimes people are like, it's from over ten years ago. We don't need to say spoilers. Well, fuck you. And the clicky click. Because, you know, there are younger people out there or there's people like me that have holes in my foundational viewing experience.

26:13KT: So I don't wanna ruin it for people that haven't seen it. And unlike Oti, I'm not going to shame you. Oti's all about that Game of Thrones shame.

26:24Oti: Yep.

26:27KT: But everything about this film and exactly what you're saying, and I will pay my tithes to the pastor Oti because that sermon was perfect. Thank you. What I love about stories is where they are wholly personal narratives. Yes. It was about boxing, but the boxing, like you said, is to further illustrate the growth, the highs and lows, the tonality

26:56KT: of the story. Yeah. And that's also why I love John Wick because, yes, he's an assassin and you've got the high table, you know, you've got that whole spy sort of world, but it only serves to further the narrative of John Wick.

27:11KT: And that's exactly what this film does with boxing. And I'm like, why did you make me watch Creed? Why didn't we watch this instead?

27:11Oti: Because like your Michael j b Jordan, mate.

27:11KT: Well, the fact that you got his name wrong again

27:11Oti: j b Michael Jordan?

27:11KT: Wait. Let's just Listen to our Black Panther episode, guys. And take actually, don't take a shot every time Oti gets it wrong because you'll be on the floor.

27:38KT: But this, oh, wow. And, like, I don't think anyone is saying this is a bad film either, but I do feel like it deserves all the accolades it can get. For sure. So if we can do that together with our handful of listeners, that is what we're going to do today. And

27:54Oti: you know what I like about this? Like, it's it's from a point of view of Scrap, Michael Morgan Freeman's character. Uh-huh. It's not that he's inside the character's heads or anything. It's more of him as a voyeur because he's pretty much everywhere.

28:11KT: Yeah. Actually. Well, he's He's just hiding in the shadows and observing everything. He is god. He is omniscient. So

28:17Oti: Pretty much. Like, when Frankie was killing Maggie at the end of the movie and Scrap was just there in the shadows watching. Yeah. You know? He's everywhere, and you could see this in the entire movie. So it makes you feel as if, oh, okay. So it's not that he's just assuming things. He's actually just observing. And most likely, he's had conversation with Frankie and Maggie about most of the things that he's telling us. It creates a added layer of complexity and wonder into

28:47Oti: exactly how he's writing this letter to Frankie's daughter. So let's I'll bait it being one of the longest letter they'll that gal will ever read.

28:56KT: Right? Yeah. For sure. It'll still be more enjoyable than, you know actually, no. I was I was going to fire some shots, but we're all about the love today. There were some poignant points that you just literally skimmed over that I want to come back to. So you were talking about the foreshadowing in regards to her childhood dog, you know, passing away. Yep. You you said killed Hilary Swank. I'm saying passing away at the dog. That says more about us too, but that's another thing. But the the vehicle of that symbolism

29:28KT: of the dog having to be put down, it's it's one of those things because when we when we move further into the story, we haven't even talked about the triumphs yet of this film. We like getting heavy.

29:40Oti: We do.

29:42KT: Yeah. We we like getting heavy in this podcast, and we will bring some levity back. But let's let's stay in this moment. Right? So, you know, she she gives that example with Frankie's character talking about the dog. And then we move there there there are many highs, but we're just going to focus on this low where she's in that hospital room. Yeah. And she said, do you remember what I told you about the dog? Yeah. I want you to do that for

30:11Oti: Tears. Tears.

30:13KT: Every every every sort of crying session I repressed in my childhood just came back in that moment. Yeah. Sad. Yeah. But beautifully done. Very beautifully done. And what we saw, you know, as viewers, it it was it was very clear, you know, if Maggie couldn't have the life that she could have and she lived a full life, right, but her life could never be the same after that accident. Yeah. It's not even an accident. Blue Bear was coming in full force. Right? Yeah.

30:51KT: But, you know, after that happened, she knew that she wasn't going to get her life again. And slowly and slowly, her her independence and her freedoms and all of her triumphs were being overshadowed by her current situation. Mhmm. And I think it well, once they started to say that she had to amputate her leg, that's where she was like, no. I I can't do this anymore.

31:13Oti: I feel like she was there, but she didn't say anything just because

31:18Oti: Frankie was so eager to keep her alive and to keep her

31:18KT: And and that's that's exactly that's exactly what I'm leading up to because we're watching this film and we're seeing that Maggie's struggling. Right? She even attempted herself when she knew that he wasn't going to do it. Maggie was trying to do it herself. Right? So as viewers, we're like, oh, come on now. You need to end her suffering. You need to do this. You need to do this. But at the same time, if that was me and that was you,

31:49KT: it's it it would not be that easy.

31:49Oti: We know Frankie has taken

31:54Oti: Maggie as the second daughter even referring to her as Mo cuishle which

32:00KT: loosely translated to My darling, my blood. Yeah.

32:04Oti: And the literal translation is actually my pulse but there you go. It just shows that he saw Maggie as you're my daughter. Yeah. And I'm not I'm not ready I'm not ready to lose you. And there was a moment where Frankie was reading to Maggie a poem by W. B. Yeats. Mhmm. Because there are different ways in which you can translate that. Mhmm. And from well, from my point of view, he was translating into there's still hope, there's still love, there's still life to live.

32:35Oti: Yeah. We could we could go to the cabin and we could own the the pie shop and we could live happily ever after. You could go to uni, you could get all those wheelchairs. We could blow into it. And that's from Frankie's point of view because he was not ready. Yeah. And the fact that Maggie was just sitting there smiling, putting up a brave face, knowing increasingly that she's done. Like, she's experienced everything she could have imagined.

33:03Oti: Mhmm. Her at 31, she never believed that this would be her. She's done it. She's pretty much won a million she's pretty much won a million dollars. Would have imagined. Exactly. And and it's so exciting

33:17Oti: how the inter they bring this sort of theme of assisted suicide because whatever your political views or whatever your religious views on that is, you could still see how I don't wanna get too deep with this, but it was just sad. It was harrowing to see Frankie having to go through that because in in himself, he lost another daughter.

33:17KT: And in regards to euthanasia,

33:39KT: that is quite, you know, obviously, it's very heavy sort of subject matter. But that's also character development on you, Oti, because we covered Ricky Gervais' After Life, and we did talk about a little bit about euthanasia and that sort of thing. And the fact that you're even expressing as far as you're expressing now is is a lot further than you would have been willing to express in the After Life episode. So check out our After Life episode.

34:09KT: It is a heavy show, but it's also quite good. Ricky Gervais recently won a prestigious award

34:09Oti: Well deserved.

34:09KT: For his performance. Yes. And he liked our tweet, so I'm ready. Retire it now. After this episode, I'm gonna write my resignation for my office job. But, you know, without getting too deep into that sort of debate, from a humanistic personal not me personally, but like from a people person sort of view, actually, yes. I'm gonna earn it. Me personally. If someone that you love is struggling and they genuinely want you to help,

34:47KT: those loved ones should not be persecuted in that process. And that's that's as much as I will say. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And everyone is entitled to the opinion on this like it's it's it's

34:58Oti: difficult enough losing someone that you love and we see Frankie struggling with this and the fact I think that's this is one of the biggest like character development moments we see in Frankie Uh-huh. And after he helps Maggie pass along, he completely disappears from everyone's radar. Of course, we are shown where he is at the end, but not he everyone in his circles didn't know about the pie shop apart from Maggie. Yeah. So he pretty much just erased himself from

35:29KT: He kinda reminded me of, like, whether whether you believe it or whether it's more of a, like, entertainment sort of thing, he kinda reminded me of, like, a ghost. Like, not a Bobby Brown mount you in your sleep ghost. But daddy Eastwood, you're most welcome. He's not dead yet, but we're but, like, he reminded me of, like, a ghost. Like, he he isn't done with this world, so he's just gonna keep lingering around until his business is done. Right? So it was kind of like that because you saw, as you were mentioning,

36:05KT: you know, he was battling his own demons and that's actually quite an interesting thread that I wanna pull on at the moment aside from pulling on you, Oti. In regards to the relationship with his daughter, a lot of the time I was getting distracted. So I'm not sure about you guys, but when I watch something and there are foundational questions in regards to the core narrative that aren't being answered, it's hard for me to concentrate. And one of those foundational threads was what happened to his family? Like

36:36KT: and I was like, oh, was was this was the daughter in a car accident with the mom and, you know, like, somehow she's not well or, you know, that sort of thing. It really distracted me. It really distracted me from the film because it obviously plays a part in his dynamic with Maggie. Yeah. Right? And any any sort of demons that he didn't resolve within himself with his relationship with his daughter, he was reconciling with his relationship with Maggie. Mhmm. Right? And to be able to see that play out in the film was beautiful.

37:09KT: Right? Because he was very reluctant, you know? You might know that how you deal with things isn't the best way to deal with it. You might know that your coping mechanisms aren't healthy and they're actually to your own detriment. Yeah. But it's one thing to know something and it's one thing to be ready to take action across it. Oh, for sure. And that's exactly what we were facing in Frankie's character. He wasn't ready to deal with shit. And even if we bring in Morgan Freeman's character, he wasn't ready to deal with that either.

37:43KT: Because to some extent, he felt responsible for Morgan Freeman's character losing his eye. Yeah. Like Odin from American Gods.

37:52Oti: Yeah. And you see how this affects him in dealing with other people and it actually in his actual job because he has this amazing boxer with him, Willie. Big Willie. Big Willie. Yeah. And he kept he keeps on telling him, two more fights. Two more fights. Two, three more fights. You'll be ready for the championship. You know? He keeps on holding him back and protecting him. Mhmm. You're not ready. You're not ready. And this is more towards because of all the guilt he's carrying, all the burden

38:21Oti: he's carrying. He wasn't ready to let that go. And slowly with Maggie, you can see him trying to push that boundary in him Yeah. And create this symbiotic relationship where he's getting this affection from Maggie and and it just makes him grow as a person, help him alleviate the burden and he doesn't even when he goes to church, think when the I think one of the moment he went to church Mhmm. While it was still while Maggie was still fighting her best,

38:51Oti: you could see he was different. He he wasn't antagonizing the priest that much

38:55Oti: as what like from the start of the movie.

38:55KT: Near the end of the film, the priest actually said something very harrowing to Frankie's character saying, you've come to mass every day for around twenty three years. The only people I know that do that are people that can't forgive themselves. And he was saying that the weight of what you're about to do assisting Maggie, you won't be able to live with. Yeah. Right? He was wrong in that instance according to the narrative. But the point is,

39:29KT: if you don't deal with your shit, it will manifest in other ways. Yeah. You might be walking around minding your own business but sometimes it's quite visible that to other people that you've got some demons you need to reconcile. And that was Frankie all over. Yeah.

39:48Oti: It really was.

39:50KT: Did Morgan Freeman's character have a gambling problem?

39:53Oti: Yes.

39:55KT: Right? Yeah. Him and his He loosely admitted about it. Yeah. Yeah. Did you submit your idea about your house socks to him?

40:03Oti: With the holes? Yeah. It's like, why are you submitting your socks to the movie? You've got to have socks with holes in them so that your toes can breathe. And what big toe do say? It's a it's a fundamental design flaw in socks. Socks with no holes, not great, mate.

40:22KT: And unfortunately,

40:23KT: that's Oti's campaign line.

40:23Oti: It's just crazy they went with ripped jeans first without before going to ripped socks. That's a fashion statement.

40:32KT: Are you really choosing to take a stand here?

40:35Oti: Yep.

40:37KT: See, sometimes people ask for levity. That's what you get, guys. Oti and his most holy of socks. Mhmm. Let's let's let's let's bring in some levity, right, properly. Mhmm. In regards to the other characters, who do you wanna start with first? Danger? Let's start with Danger.

40:58Oti: Oh,

41:00KT: Most it it is quite formulaic. Like, when you have a story and you're expanding out characters, you usually have a character that is pretty useless but they're also pretty harmless and you just want the best for them. Yeah. And Danger was that. If anyone's watched The Wire, he was like a likable Ziggy.

41:19Oti: Yeah.

41:20KT: He was he had that sort of twang to him as well, which was quite fun to listen to. I really felt bad for him. Like and you knew something bad was going to happen to his character. Yep. I was like, hopefully, he doesn't die, but he did get a beating.

41:36Oti: Yeah. He got a beating, which shook his character

41:40KT: a bit. Yeah. And he gave up on his dream because he realized that he's not cut out for it. But I think even Morgan Freeman's character said they didn't have the heart to tell him that the guy that he keeps challenging is retired, like three years ago as well. Like, he's he's not good for much but he's minding his own business. He's got heart. He's yeah. And that's what they were saying. That's all he's got. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Because it's kind of different. Like, you get you get Maggie has strength and skill.

42:09Oti: Yeah. You know, raw skill and then you have Danger who's just all heart. The opposite. Oh, Maggie had heart as well. Yeah. Maggie had heart but she had other things going for her. She did. Danger just has a lot of heart and belief in himself. And sometimes even when they started that one, Scrap started narrating in the movie, he said that heart is what gets you killed. Mhmm. Which is true. Yeah. So the fact that McKay he what's his name? Anthony Mackie. Mackie. It was bloody annoying. Anthony urethras.

42:48Oti: He's got such a hateable face, doesn't he? Listen to our black no. Black Mirror episode. Mhmm. Does he have a hateable face? I don't know. I just feel like I want to punch him every time. He looks like a jackass. I feel like I wanna punch him every time. Well, he's your new Captain America, is he? I'm the captain now. That's my captain.

43:07KT: Oti Phillips. Oti Phillips. Oh, Tom Hanks is a national treasure. Let's international.

43:13Oti: International. Yeah. He's like the daddy of America. Mhmm. The daddy of everywhere, mate. Wow. Really? Yeah. I I don't think I've ever seen anyone be like, oh, Tom Hanks. I don't like him. And if they do, I don't wanna know who they are.

43:28KT: I really don't. But, yeah, Danger was a very likable character. You wanna talk a bit about your Anthony Mackie? Oh, he's a dick. He had

43:37Oti: oh, the fucking Scrap is the one that punched him out just to put him in his place. And he called it as his hundred and tenth fight. Yep. Yep. That was something amazing. Yeah. I feel like I want to go and watch that scene after this. Right?

43:52KT: It's just one of those, like, good moments. Those comeuppances. Right? And you know there's a problem if Michael Pena has more character development than you Anthony Mackie. For

44:05Oti: sure.

44:06KT: Was he trying to have, like, a fresh accent?

44:09Oti: Yeah. He was actually kind of fresh. He was very inconsistent.

44:12KT: I don't know if this is a universal term for the rest of the world, but in Australia, in particular, fresh means someone that is not from a western country. Like the fresh off the boat? Yeah. Like my people. See, Oti will never touch that. Yep. Right. He would be like, I am the captain, but never my people. I am safe. You are. But it is such a beautiful film and I really don't know anyone that didn't enjoy this.

44:44Oti: Really? What's not to enjoy?

44:46KT: It had everything. It had a fully encompassing, wholly realized narrative. It had secondary characters that you care about. And let me just say, yes, Maggie was the perfect protagonist. But at the same time, I usually expect great protagonists. Right? Because if that's hello, that is like the meat and potatoes of your film. So if your protagonist is shit, then everything else is gonna fall apart around it. Right? What I love to see is when you have secondary characters that have more than one dimension to them that you actually care about,

45:28KT: that any sort of questions you might have about their background get answered. Oh, yeah. And that is one of the makings of a great story. Oh, for sure. So we really have quite an interesting sort of dynamic between Frankie, Maggie, and Scrap. Yep. Right? And it all ties in quite nicely together. What Maggie initially wasn't getting from Frankie, she got from Scrap. And it really moved between the pendulum of these characters. One of the moments that you pointed out was the whole narration,

46:06KT: right? You know, it's usually a given. If you're going to have Morgan Freeman on your project and you're not getting him to narrate, then what's the point? It's like paying Gordon Ramsay just to shout at you and not make you a meal. Right? Like, you you need to get the whole package when you have Morgan Freeman. So I really thought nothing of it when he was narrating. But to really tie together the loose ends of the film and the reason he's narrating is because he's writing a letter to Frankie's daughter. Let

46:37KT: me do that with two hands. Wow. Because, again, that was one of those threads that I kept pulling at in that film. It's like, okay, this is cool. They're traveling the world and they're fighting and, you know, super cute guy. But why? Why are they not addressing the relationship that he or Frankie had or didn't have with his daughter? And once we got to the point where he was writing that letter, you know what? As someone that continually gets distracted by foundational questions not being answered, I was satiated and I was satisfied.

47:12KT: It was enough for me to know that the daughter was being reached out to, that I didn't need to know the hundreds of questions

47:21KT: that I felt I needed answered

47:21Oti: and that's a great way to shut KT up. And one of the questions I answered I think in Frankie's relationship with the daughter is the fact that the daughter doesn't want to hear anything from the father. So you know the relationship has been severed quite a bit. Frankie has been writing her letters weekly and they all come back with a return to send a stamp on it which is heartbreaking

47:45Oti: and you could see him it affects him but how in the fuck that Scrap hopefully she will read that letter just because it's not from the father. Yeah sometimes that's that's it. Yeah you need a buddy to reach out to your family mate it's just heartbreaking It's touching. He accepted that he probably won't see Frankie again. Yeah. And I guess that was the reason why he was writing this letter in the first place just to illustrate how Frankie isn't the same person he was

48:16Oti: a decade or how many years it's been. And I think that's quite a very

48:22KT: deeply resonating lesson in this film. Redemption is always available to you. Yeah. We don't know what happened between his family. And, again, for the purposes of the narrative, we didn't need to know. Mhmm. Right? We didn't need to know what sort of miscomings he had with his family. And obviously, sometimes there's too much hurt for you to go back and forgive. And maybe that's what happened in Frankie's case. But he gained redemption through Maggie.

48:54KT: Yeah. He also gained redemption whether he took it or not. He gained redemption through Scrap's character. And that's such a beautiful lesson to learn. You may have burnt a bridge, but you're not wholly discarded as a person. And I hope everyone feels that way. Yeah. People make mistakes

49:12Oti: and you have to come back from them stronger whether or not you've burnt a bridge with someone, there'll always be that someone else that will help you get along and I reckon that that's just one of the major motifs in this Motifs.

49:27KT: It's a funny word. I'm just giving you time to pull your glasses up.

49:32Oti: No. I used to do art and craft. Well, they call it yeah. It was called art and craft or whatever the fuck I was. And our teacher was so into motifs. Oh, you need to present your motifs at the end of the week. Oh, bloody far out. Don't wanna go back to schooling days. A little sad Oti like Archer.

49:50KT: It is lacrosse game. Yeah. For sure. That's an Archer reference, guys.

49:55Oti: But Frankie and Scrap's character, you know they've been through a lot together. Oh, yeah. And the fact because they came up together. They were rising in the ranks together. Yeah. They came up together. And remember the story Frankie was telling well, Scrap was telling us that Scrap was it was Scrap's last fight, and he was all beat up and afterwards nine. Yes. They'd driven up to some gas station. They didn't have a car or whatever afterwards, and they tried to hitch a ride,

50:23Oti: but no one gave Scrap a ride, and Frankie got into a car and left. Mhmm. But soon afterwards, Frankie just stopped and got off the car and came back all the way for him. Yeah. It just shows you the kind of character Frankie is. It's the guilt, you know. He he holds thing really. Everything affects him in such a heavy way and it shows it paints a picture of him as a character and how everything

50:47Oti: all the interactions he has and the sort of wall that he's built up to try and not get too close to everyone and anyone. When Big Willie came and said to him that he's leaving He was like, fine. He was like, go.

51:01Oti: Not really. Like, he he he didn't really understand. He was like, but you you're going to someone who doesn't know what to do with you. And then Big Willie was like, but you've taught me everything I need to know. Yeah. Because he wasn't ready at that time to change or to grow. Yeah. He wasn't ready. And, you know, the times when you look at characters like that as you get angry? Yeah. I wasn't. Like, you could see the guy has baggage. And the way he delivered that performance,

51:28KT: you could you could feel it. You could sense it. It was visible. It was visible. The shit that he hadn't sorted out was fucking visible. And I just wanna spend we don't have to finish off on this, but I do wanna spend some time talking about Maggie's family. Crop. Crop. Crop. Crop. Crop. Crop. Crop. Mate. I think I might have mentioned in a podcast episode, but I am a professional cut you out of my life sort of person. Whether you're whether you're family, whether you're the prime minister,

52:00KT: whether you're Oti, like, if you if you were bringing toxic sort of and I know let's all wank over that word because people use toxic a lot. But, you know, if there are people that are bringing bad vibes to my life, I just cut them the fuck off. Who has the time? Life's too short, mate. Yeah. And you remember that lesson, Oti.

52:20KT: No. But seriously, I I just don't have time. I just don't have time for people that bring their bullshit and try to make it my bullshit. I've got my own bullshit I need to deal with. Right? Go and deal with your own shit. Right? And that's what I really loved about Maggie's character. Right? Because the first time, right, Frankie's like, once you get a little bit of money, go and buy a house. And what did sweet Maggie do? She bought a house for her mom. She went there after a fight with Frankie,

52:51KT: and Frankie saw firsthand what her family was like. And the mom's like, why did you buy me a house? Why don't you just give me that money? I I don't know how you feel about your family. Hopefully, your family as well, but wow. Yeah. Bloody hell. That was hard to watch. That was so ungrateful. And even the sister as well. No one can fuck you up more than your family. No one can fuck you more than your family. That's for sure. But that was terrible. And then we move further into the film

53:23KT: where they had been there for a week when Maggie was in hospital but they just went parading around. They went to Disney. Yes. They went to all of the theme parks and they even had the audacity, the gall, how dare you, to wear all of those shirts and go into the hospital and try to get her to sign some documents. So they could keep the money. I'm assuming it was guardianship or some shit. So they could transfer their money, they'd be caretakers

53:50Oti: and

53:51KT: And you know what? It's it's one of those things no matter I feel like family are really the only people that can treat you like shit but you continue to allow them in your life. Mhmm. Right? So when Maggie told Frankie to leave the room, I'm like, oh, come on girl.

54:07KT: Be strong. Be strong girl because I was worried that she was going to concede. Yeah. Me too. I was really worried for her because I I wanted her to stand strong and that's what she did. She did. And I was so proud of her. That's growth because it's really

54:22KT: you know, you you can have your friends and you can have, you know, your acquaintances and stuff, but it's hard to know where to cut the line with family. It's like they can do whatever the fuck they want to you and then you'll be like, okay, fine. I love you forever. And even when she went to go and buy the house and the mom kept complaining,

54:39KT: she was doing that to guilt her because she's like, oh, I'm sorry. I'll send you more money. After buying a house, she said, I'll send you more money. Yeah. Right? Cut to that hospital room where she's like, well, because you never did the paperwork, you never signed it. So at any time, I can sell that fucking house.

54:57Oti: From God's mouth to my ears.

55:00KT: Yeah. From my mouth to your ears. Let's let's just save some time right there. Oh, but that was there was it was literally if this film wasn't called Million Dollar Baby, it could have been called wholly realized character development. It also it also could have been called squabbling old men, but, you know okay. Let's let's finish off with something lighter. Scrap and also Frankie had some very cute exchanges between each other. They did. The first one being the socks.

55:34KT: No. Not the first one, but one of them we've already mentioned Mhmm. Was about the socks. Mhmm. Right? And the reason why he's not wearing his day socks is because they have too many holes in them. Yep. Even though his night socks already had holes in this. It's the level of holes, mate. Right? And I think one of the first sort of cute bickering that they had was the bleach. Mhmm. Who who argues over that? The

55:58Oti: pricier ones smell better. Right?

56:02KT: And it's it's just so funny how they really get it under each other's skin because when you know someone for that long, you can you can squabble over the most tiniest of shit. Yeah. Right? And it was fun and it was cute. It

56:16Oti: being too personal.

56:17KT: And when Willie won the title Oh. Frankie couldn't sleep. And he went and bought a burger and he gave the burger to Scrap. It was cute. It was such a nice it would be of course, I love you. You're my lover and my best friend to have that sort of friendship when you're old and gray. I'm not sure if this means we're doing Bucket List for Morgan Freeman. It was Jack Nicholson as well, wasn't I'm

56:43KT: not sure if we're gonna go into there, but it was nice to have that sort of friendship that is bolstered in understanding and withstood a lot of hardship. Because, you know, like, friendships, lovers, relationships, whatever it is, it is not truly a foundational connection until you've gone through shit together. True. And you could see that Frankie and Scrap have done that even to their holy socks and their bleach as well.

56:43Oti: So you mentioned about the title. I just have a question for you.

56:43KT: Alright.

56:43Oti: And I'll give you my opinion on this as well after.

57:19KT: Of course, you will. That's what you always do.

57:22Oti: What do you think the title means? You mean literally? What does the title mean? Whatever what did it what does it mean to you? Or how did you translate it as Million Dollar Baby? What do you think it means? Oh.

57:33KT: See, you know we're watching a boxing film. You should have said the the title of the movie because I thought you meant that, like, the heavyweight title.

57:42Oti: Mate, you watch too much wrestling. Come on now.

57:45KT: I'll see you in the ring, brother. And I still ascertain that Mick Foley was Kane, at least in the early years. You're ridiculous. I will shout it from the rooftops. Do you want a Rikishi smiley face again or after the show? After the

58:05Oti: Oh, man. Most of these people are in patrons, but they're not privy to this.

58:11KT: And what a privy they should be. Uh-huh. Million Dollar Baby? Mhmm. You know what? I haven't actually thought of it. Yeah. Right? No. You're a dick because you obviously have No. Like it just came to me because you mentioned you you mentioned it. You mentioned how the movie should have been called

58:27Oti: Dundee Wankery or something. I don't know what you just said a minute ago.

58:31KT: Okay. If anyone wants to if anyone wants to pick up Oti's Australian Dundee Wankery film title, please let us know. Think Blue Lagoon.

58:43Oti: And I was like, oh, what do you think it actually means to you or what did you take from the title of the movie?

58:43KT: I haven't thought past the fact that she won a million dollars.

58:43Oti: True. It could be it could it could be taken like that.

58:43KT: Wow. You were really hoping for a deep moment, weren't you?

58:43Oti: I was hoping for a deep moment because I was thinking more in terms of, like, a million dollars. Of course, it's worth so much. It means a lot to someone. It means a lot to Frankie,

59:09Oti: and baby is some sort of term of endearment where you you can tie in Mo cuishle in there, Mo cuishle in there. I think it's just how much she meant to Frankie. Nice. You know what?

59:21KT: I never thought about it that way, Oti. And we are the perfect balance just like this film. Although I shotgun being Scrap, you can be Frankie. Yeah. Best trainer. I can take that. Okay. You win this touch. I do wanna finish off with a quote Mhmm. From the film. Are you okay with that? Yep. So this is during the end of the film where Frankie is confiding in Scrap about assisting Maggie. Maggie walked through that door with nothing but guts.

59:54KT: No chance in the world of being what she needed to be. It was because of you that she was fighting the championship of the world. You did that. People die every day, Frankie. Mopping floors, washing dishes, and you know what their last thought is? I never got my shot. Because of you, Maggie got her shot. If she dies today, you know what her last thought would be? I think I did alright.

59:54Oti: You look and sound like that meme.

59:54KT: What meme?

60:26Oti: Oh, wow.

60:33KT: Because that's it. Your your unfulfilled potential.

60:37Oti: Constantly thinking of what if. Yeah. Everyone's gonna die. Should have done that. Yeah. Everyone's gonna die. And at least when you do go, you shouldn't have any regrets. You should live your life to the fullest. Embrace everything and live life without restrictions, mate, you know. You only get one shot and take it. And you know what? That's exactly what we did.

61:00KT: We started a podcast because we're brave. Mhmm. Thanks so much for joining us along the journey. I'm not sure if we're the Joe Swanson of podcasts and we're always making things deep and sad. I think that's kind of our aesthetic now that's a Family Guy reference. You are most welcome. And speaking of, we are diving into, For Your Reference, Oti.

61:25Oti: Oh. Oh. I'm gonna go with Invictus because Clint Eastwood directed it, and it has it stars Morgan Freeman as Nelson Mandela. It delves into

61:25KT: And Matt Damon.

61:25Oti: I'm Matt Damon. It delves into the time in Apartheid in South Africa while the teams are still when there's still segregation and how rugby brought a nation together. So it's a lovely movie if a lot of you aren't aware of what's happened what happened in Africa in South Africa at the time and Invictus will paint a light picture of how that was and how sport no matter how

62:04Oti: trivial you might think it is can unite a nation.

62:04KT: Yeah. And there there are unspoken ways to bring people together. Yeah. Sports, food, and good looking people. For sure. And you can get all of that with For Your Reference, guys. My turn? Yep. You know what, Oti? Mhmm. Watching this film has really made me want to go back and watch something I've already watched. And let's continue this Clint Eastwood love train. Daddy Eastwood. I will reference Gran Torino. Oh. Because I watched it. And like you said, with Million Dollar Baby, I was like, okay. Cool.

62:46KT: Right? I feel like I need to give it another go. Oh, yeah. I liked Gran Torino. I feel like I liked it, but I feel like I didn't immerse myself. Mhmm. Right? So hop aboard the Eastwood train because we are heading to Euphoria. So thank you so much, guys. Thanks for tuning in on Twitter and Instagram. We are For Your Ref Pod.

63:08Oti: You can write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com.

63:12KT: And And we'll see you guys next week. See you. Bye.