Malcolm X – To be or not to be American?

Full transcript of Malcolm X – To be or not to be American?.

0:00KT: It's another week in the For Your Reference household and it is another course. It is the second course of the 2025 Reference Degustation. We are covering Spike Lee friends and lovers. If you are late to the dinner reservation, the first course was, you know, the one that everyone's talking about. You know, you just needed to get a taste for yourself. And now we are coming into not for white people, seasoning and spiciness. This is the whole flavor baby. Say Oti. I heard you like him. Urban. I heard you like him. ghetto. Um, I guess quickly before we get off, um, into the show, we were late to the Splooshies last year.

0:48KT: Friends and lovers with a rap beef kicked off. And I guess we're coming to a full circle moment. Um, Spike Lee. Samuel Jackson had a very decades long, uh, I guess, rift between the two of them. He went and worked with Quentin Jerome Tarantino, not necessarily the, the speculation was that it was about a contract. Agreements or disagreements, um, but to have a full circle moment with Kendrick Lamar's Super Bowl halftime performance, we had Samuel Jackson's character who people that are very learned, uh, drawing parallels to Samuel Jackson's character in Do the Right Thing, as well as Jungle Fever, perhaps, maybe, um, and also in Chi-Raq as well.

1:37KT: Hopefully we have time to cover that film too. And Spike Lee actually shouted out. Kendrick Lamar, as well as Samuel Jackson on that performance, as well as the 40 acres and a mule reference, uh, that Kendrick did in the performance. So happy black history month, friends and lovers

1:55Oti: stay in it

1:57KT: and let's get on the show. Hey friends and revolutionary lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your hosts, KT and

2:08Oti: Oti

2:10KT: X, or just Oti.

2:14Oti: Let's see how it go. I'm an under X.

2:20KT: Welcome to our Reference Degustation, where we take you through a month long double dolly celebration of Spike Lee Joints.

2:29Oti: Ooh,

2:31KT: how are you feeling?

2:33Oti: Energize, revolutionize.

2:36KT: Discern the white devil dictionary and throw off the shackles of cultural colonialism from Harlem to Soweto. Tap into the region where the people had color with Spike Lee's Malcolm X this week. Are you Darkman Oti X? Friends and lovers. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. We've mentioned it's in the show notes of all of the directors, um, that we've covered on the For Your Reference podcast. I think it was serendipitous, even though we were going to do Spike Lee last year. I think the fact that we're doing it now is so momentous. It's an exciting time in my fun, um, research of Spike Lee.

3:30KT: I also found that he's an Arsenal fan, like you, Oti. Yeah.

3:37Oti: I didn't think the man could get any better based on

3:41KT: point, um, and friends and lovers go and check out our Do the Right Thing episode. It's interesting. It might be because we are watching Spike Lee films, um, and I guess the world that we're in right now, but there were a lot of commentary around Kendrick Lamar's Super Bowl halftime performance. The same things you would hear people say about Spike Lee films. And I thought that was actually quite interesting of not understanding it or that sort of thing. And, you know, going from Do the Right Thing, which I think most people can say is great. Most people will say Malcolm X is great, but I don't think they're actually.

4:20KT: Keying into to

4:22Oti: get to man.

4:25KT: What the fuck you watching bro is tacky. We have director Spike Lee, um, James Baldwin also had a screenplay, but the family requested that his name not be included as a part of the screenplay. We also have Arnold Perl as well as Spike Lee. This is based on the autobiography of Malcolm X. As told to Alex Haley, Malcolm X is also credited as well. It was released in November of 1992. There's some interesting stuff about the budget, which we might get into. Um, I don't necessarily care for this sort of, um, conversation, but when it comes to the making of this film. I think it is quite interesting and a lot of parallels to real life as well, a budget of 35 million.

5:16KT: And again, there's a whole story there, a worldwide gross of 73 million, which it was mentioned that perhaps it wasn't as much as they wanted, or they expected from the studio. Uh, but it was definitely a lot for a film of this caliber we talked about Do the Right Thing. And I was surprised that it was. A studio film of Universal, um, Malcolm X was a Warner Brothers film, which is wild, wild, wild. We have so much that we're going to cover today. Um, friends and lovers. And I'm very excited to get into there very quickly. The cast.

5:53KT: We have Denzel motherfucking Washington in the building. Finally. Very exciting. Angela Bassett. Thank you very much. I'll take every scene. Albert Hall, Al Freeman Jr, Delroy Lindo, shoutouts friends and lovers. I forgot to mention we had a little pop up Spike Lee, um, which was also a tribute, uh, review episode to Chadwick Boseman for Da 5 Bloods. Um, and also Spike Lee is in the film as well. to guests, um, and our patrons that have contributed to common and recurring themes, uh, for the Spike Lee films that we will be watching. Um, a few of them actually note that. Spike Lee does have a set core team that he works with. Um, and we are very learned friends and lovers, and we know how to delve into the DVD extras, if you don't understand that you're too young, go to bed, read something, then go to bed. Um, but I just wanted to play this quick clip because it's relevant to Malcolm X and the core team as well as throughout.

7:09Clip: Spike contacted the group of film artists who had become his team of collaborators over the years. It's never been just Spike Lee, his was the core. Ernest Dickerson, DP. Wynn Thomas, production designer. Robi Reed, casting. Ruth Carter, costume design. Barry Brown, editing. Terence Blanchard, score.

7:29KT: While we're here, friends and lovers, shoutouts, love and splooshes to Ruth E. Carter, who has won two Academy Awards for costume design for both of the Black Panther films. That's why her name sounded familiar. Um, she's worked with Spike Lee, um, on various amount of films as well as Baby Boy and rest in peace, John Singleton as well. So, you know, it's so important to have a core crew and people that understand the vision as well. Oh, okay. Well, um, before we get into everything that we came here for friends and lovers, let's get into our non spoiler thoughts. You know, if you haven't done the work, it might still hurt your feelings, but in general, we will be spoiling.

8:15KT: But for now, give us your pull quote, my love.

8:19Oti: as Malcolm X in a powerful, poignant epic. Few films justify their length like this, expertly paced, timeless, and sadly, still relevant today.

8:32KT: Yes. Yes to the last part. Thank you. Wow. Spike Lee's discerning vision and Denzel Washington's boundless performance results in a cinematic multifaceted reflection of a public figure and an open dialogue of the world. How it has been built, who benefits and those that are left with work to do.

9:00Oti: Yeah. That's a good one.

9:05KT: KT, honorary X.

9:10Oti: Oh, this movie did a lot of things to me. I think watching it, I was just enjoying it from a cinema perspective. The way it was shot, the storytelling, I'd watched this before, so it wasn't entirely new to me. I had known the story of Malcolm X, but going into this again and just witnessing everything that was happening. And at the end of the day, having that anger and coming towards, you know, and, and this is some, one of the things that Spike Lee talked about when he was doing the press for, um, Uh, Do the Right Thing where a lot of the time it will also focus the lens inwards. And we also get to see this clearly here.

10:03Oti: And one of the things that I walked out of just feeling heavily is this is why fucking black people can't have nice things.

10:14KT: I think that was the lamentation at the end of the film as well. Yeah.

10:20Oti: We cannot have good things. We have, there's a lot of things that are set up to either be revolutionary by self fucking interest will always come into play.

10:39KT: It has to be, it can't be for the collective

10:43Oti: for the collective because fuck that. And you can get to see the people that would create that shift, even in today's fucking world what the hell are we doing as people? What the Nation of Islam was meant to be

11:00KT: all right, black nationalism, global black nationalism was

11:08Oti: this motherfuckers just, Anyway, sometimes external forces play a part. And that's the whole systemic shit that we see right now, what we're battling against and the two sort of the differences right in approaches, but still to this day, everything that you saw relevant in Malcolm X still holds true today.

11:36KT: Yeah.

11:37Oti: Oh yeah. Give me some thoughts, man.

11:42KT: I'll give you some thoughts and I'll give you all of the feelings. Uh, This is the first time, um, like I said, and Do the Right Thing. And you said it was no surprise. This is the first time that I've watched, um, Malcolm X, Spike Lee's Malcolm X with Denzel Washington, and. While I had heard murmurings that this film was long, you know, I'm not talking about black people, but I heard people say this film was too long. It didn't need to be too long. However, Malcolm X is someone that has lived whole lives in the eras of his life.

12:22KT: He has lived whole lives and also within those whole lives, there's been growth. And through that growth, through that metamorphosis, it warrants the world to explore because even what I was saying near the end of the film, when we went to Mecca, um, and Hajj, right? I was, well, first off, can I just say, I was saying to you, I was like, I've never seen, I've never seen a production like a film production. Being filmed and actually showing Hajj or, you know, people's pilgrimage and you're like, no, no, no. I've seen it before. And I'm like, no, I don't think I actually have. Um, and according to Don Cheadle's, uh, IMDB. It talks about how this is the first non documentary film to actually feature it and only Muslim people as a part of the crew were allowed to film inside of it because I was like, there was, there's, there's obviously you can talk about piousness and, um, Like having a reverence as well.

13:36KT: But I was like, I don't think I've ever, I've ever seen that before. So to be able to get that in Malcolm X film, aside from the fact that they wanted, they wanted to pretend that Egypt was Jersey Shore or something, um, that speaks to the realness and how it fucking matters, right? There's so much to be said about. You know, I, I guess, imaginationing. Yourself into a moment, but you know, even Spike Lee talks about how in his head, it was always an epic, right? On the scale of Lawrence of Arabia? This was an epic film and it made sense to be three hours and to, you can't, you can't fake the funk, right?

14:25KT: It needed to be the way it needed to be, which I S I think speaks on A deeper level, if you want to peep game, friends and lovers, because Malcolm X's, uh, understanding and perception of Islam was rooted in the Nation of Islam and not necessarily Islam as a whole. Right. And, um, I do have a topic of religion. We might as well just get into it. Now, because there's so much that we're going to be discussing. But I think right while we're at the top of this review, Oti, um, it's interesting to me because even growing up in Western Sydney, um, like Islam was very Middle Eastern. Like I, that was kind of the experiences that I had.

15:12KT: I think maybe the first sort of instances that I saw in American media was The Wire. Um, and also Oz as well and watching Malcolm X and seeing instances where they, you know, where they have the Nation of Islam, they weren't even speaking Arabic. And it's not even to say that you can't fully be Muslim if you're not speaking Arabic, but I thought it was interesting that they would also keep referencing the Bible a lot. And I'm not even talking about, um. How Denzel's Malcolm X was talking about Jesus and how he came from a region of people of color. I'm not even talking about that. Even Elijah Muhammad. He was talking about Samson. Um, and I was like, okay, unless the Quran also has, you know, how it's like you have the three OG religions.

16:06KT: You have Christianity, Judaism and Islam. Like maybe they have like interlinking stories and that sort of thing. But I thought it was a little bit interesting and I, I try not to do too much research, but I did a little bit of research, um, just to understand, I guess, the forming of. Um, and to go back to the Malcolm X film, you can say it was money that could have been spent elsewhere, but I think the very notion and the very tangible symbolism of filming where it should be filmed, as opposed to just staying in America, speaks to the realness and the authenticity and the real journey that Malcolm X went through.

16:55Oti: And the fucking world view and this is why every everyone should, should travel somewhere, get out of your bloody country, go somewhere and realize just how different and how big the world is because you could see it on TV. You could watch documentaries, but you don't get the grasp of everything until you're out there

17:17KT: because I think there was a, there was a one line saying that Malcolm had only like, he, he only knew Muslims as black Americans wild.

17:27Oti: He didn't think there'd be other people who would be able to share in the same religion, share the value, share, you know, have this sort of different facets of all people. Yeah. And that's the thing, right? You don't know what you don't know. Whatever's in your street and you don't go beyond that, you just think that's the world. More often than not, it's not.

17:51KT: Yeah.

17:52Oti: So, and this is why the length of the movie plays a part because you can't take anything away from it.

17:59KT: But even, so even, I guess, um, just very briefly, even for me to get from like Malcolm X in the Nation of Islam and then him denouncing Elijah Muhammad, and then him still practicing, but making clear that he's no longer a part of it. I was like, Hmm, we could have used more time there. And this is in a movie that's three hours and 22 minutes long. And like you said, every minute made sense. We needed his Rapscallion era with Shorty, right? We needed him in prison and shout outs to Baines. He is a composite. Character. So essentially he didn't exist in real life.

18:43KT: Um, realistically, it was in an interview with a British person. Um, which is also really cute and really funny because Spike Lee, he was asked about whether he enjoys press and he says he enjoys it because he understands that, you know, by doing interviews, you guys are doing him a favor, but he also says it's only interesting if you ask intelligent questions. Otherwise he goes on autopilot, but in that same interview, um, you know, he talked about that as well. And it's, it's one of those things where it's a marvel of filmmaking. And I think to even get to where we are is wild, but yeah, so I think his brother and his sister actually sent him letters and that's how he converted.

19:29KT: But to have that character, cause it is a fiction at the end of the day, it shows more layers than many documentaries that they are the subject of. Um, but yeah, like to even have a character like Baines, who I'm sure we're going to get to, I'm sure Baines is exactly who you were talking about.

19:47Oti: Baines is just another fucking Bill O'Neal.

19:50KT: Yeesh.

19:51Oti: You know, that

19:52KT: yeah. What was that popsicles in a few years in jail or something? We also have a Judas and the Black Messiah episode friends and lovers if you want to check it out, but it was interesting to learn about the Nation of Islam because You know, even Muhammad Ali, like when I hear that they converted to Islam, I'm thinking, you know, like the OG, like two pillars of Islam, um, not that they have their own book as well. Um, friends or lovers, we're not necessarily religious. Um, so hopefully, well, we're going to say a lot of things, but hopefully if you are religious, um, you can understand the conversation that we're coming from, because I'm going to, you know, Not necessarily do a spoiler warning, but I am going to want to discuss, um, the imagery.

20:46KT: Especially in regards to Elijah Muhammad. Um, so friends and lovers check the, check the, um, time marks if you don't want to hear this conversation, but out of all the many things, this is absolutely one of the things that I want to talk about, Oti. Um, you provide a very interesting perspective that I don't necessarily have growing up in a Western country. Um, but amount of portraiture and imagery that was for Elijah Muhammad. So I guess I'll say it from my point of view, unless you want to go first. No

21:24Oti: go for it.

21:25KT: So my point of view was confusing because again, my understanding of Islam is their own prophet Muhammad famously of the many things or the little things that people might know about Islam is there's no image that is created of Muhammad. It is a big no, no. To have a personage or any sort of personification of their prophet Muhammad. So it was interesting, interesting to have Elijah Muhammad, his face was everywhere, and maybe that should have been the signal to me that maybe this is like a branch, like there was a YouTube comment when I was doing research about the Nation of Islam.

22:09KT: And they were like, Oh yeah, it's pretty much what. The Nation of Islam is to Islam is what Mormonism is to Christianity. And as a Mormon, I was like, Oh, okay. I understand. I understand the, the variations and how it doesn't feel as tethered, but it still has the sort of tracings around it. But I want to get your, yeah, I want to get your point of view. Cause you know, there, there are countries around the world that have their leaders. Plastered everywhere, statues everywhere. You did retort to me that don't we have the King, like the King of Tonga, like everywhere and I was like, yeah, but that feels different. Um, so I want to get your perspective on the imagery in particular, cause I feel like we ended up having a whole ass conversation just about that.

23:03Oti: So in Kenya, or at least in African countries, you'll get to see the first president pretty much everywhere. Or images of the current president plastered everywhere in any sort of national building, which isn't. And to me, I didn't like when I was looking at Elijah Muhammad and looking at, you know, his image everywhere, it didn't hit me as strange because I'm so used to seeing that leaders being plastered everywhere. So when you came in and be like, Oh, it's strange. I was like, Oh. Tell me more because to me, it's sort of, I'm used to seeing that with African countries, it's only sort of, I can rationalize it in terms of you fought for independence. Those are the people that are at the forefront. Most of them lost, gave up a lot to do that and lost a lot of family, friends.

24:04Oti: Got tortured. So yes, we're going to see their faces everywhere. We're gonna remember why we're free today and everything about particularly in this instance, Kenya, it's all about the independence that we got, you know, from the flag to the national anthem, it's remembering and appreciating and knowing that, Hey, we, we, we, we died. We, we bled for this. So Looking at Elijah Muhammad, yes, the parallels are in that stock, but I could see, you know, he's a leader, put yourself out there, you know, we're building based off you. So it's something that I'm used to growing up seeing. So when you,

24:49KT: but that, but that was resistance and the celebration of independence to have a religious figure do that.

24:57Oti: Because he's is also resistance. It's resistance to, to the portrayal of, of, of, of black people to the struggle of black people, to what Malcolm had, you know, drunk the Kool Aid and assumed that these people were about it as well.

25:17KT: I thought we're going to get, let's go there now. I'm happy to go there now. He,

25:23Oti: their portrayal of everything that they thought the Nation of Islam was, at least what Malcolm thought the Nation of Islam stood for, was completely folly.

25:31KT: Yeah. Well, no, no. And, and, and, and this is gonna, who knew, who knew friends and lovers that this is going to be our religion episode. The problem wasn't that because Baines said it perfectly throughout the film and also at the end. You fucked up when you believed that yourself, that's your problem because at the end of the day, again, friends and lovers, if you're a religious, we understand if you want to fast forward or, you know, listen to another podcast, but no, but it's fair. We talk about Christianity. We talk about religion in general.

26:07KT: Yeah. It is, it is folly when you start to, when you start to drink it, when you believe it, because all that it is there for, and we see it in semblances of the fictionalized Elijah Muhammad and Baines, is you get in when it's hot, right? When you start to believe that shit, that's on you.

26:30Oti: That's the problem though. If everyone believed the teachings, including Elijah Muhammad.

26:37KT: Look at all of these televangelists with their private jets and shit. Do you think Jesus wants them to do that?

26:43Oti: Jesus had a jet. How do you think he'd go? No, seriously, though.

26:49KT: That was some job Arrested Development level right there.

26:53Oti: If everyone, if everyone believed the teachings of what the, you know, what they're preaching, then the fundamentals were there to actually uplift uplift black people.

27:03KT: But realistically, there is a, a, a preying on vulnerability. Of those that want to believe

27:11Oti: they were vulnerable, vulnerable to stand up and that's why Malcolm was such a contrast and he rose up the ranks because

27:21KT: he meant it.

27:22Oti: He saw it. He stood up. He was very aggressive about it. Yeah. And I know in the three hour run time that we'll probably get to. You get to see him soften. You get to see him change his stance based off his experience.

27:41KT: Well, because he was, he was busy being a mouthpiece, right? He didn't get to do his Mr. Morale journey. Where he does pilgrimage at Mecca and the Hajj, right? Like he needed to take the journey for himself. He was, he was indoctrinated, right? He was, he was, he was saying the things that he was told to say he's, he was very charming, very charismatic. Um, you know, the way that he spoke, he had a way with speaking. I don't,

28:12Oti: I don't.

28:13KT: Um, but there is a, there is a line that Elijah says. After me, there will be no more. Who do you think you are, sir? Like, is this some Jim Jones sort of shit?

28:28Oti: Right?

28:33KT: Because the greed still seeps in no matter how pious or how, um, to do your religious institutions are.

28:40Oti: And that's just it. The folly of man. Money, fucking sugar walls and he was busting, he was busting that in every other person. Yeah. Oh, I need my legacy to be. And it

28:57KT: was blaming, uh, Delilah, the whole Samson story, and it's like, bruv. But also, if we can be very real, and we've said it before, usually in religious institutions, it's a given.

29:10Oti: It's a given.

29:13KT: It's a given, and they're not going to be held accountable because you can't question it.

29:19Oti: See, and this is where people had a chance to be like, Yes, we'll bust on that, but we'll be transparent about it. We will fight for the betterment of black people because that's what we want, essentially. And not to be like Baines where it's just self service. It's about the money. Don't believe the hype. It's just pretend. I'm sick of fucking pretend. Every fucking thing. African leaders, everywhere. It's just bloody pretend. You can all get it. You can

29:51KT: get it, like,

29:52Oti: brah.

29:53KT: Yeah, spray and pray, Oti. Ah, mm, mm mm. I love that's how we started. I love it. Friends and lovers, I'm sure there are others that are doing it, but they're probably not doing it and doing it and doing it. the way that we're doing it. Um, I love that religion was so far down like our list of like themes to talk about. But, um, I, I just want to very quickly talk about the different phases because you've talked about the runtime. And I think just to capture off that conversation, we have essentially like three main stages of Malcolm's life with flashbacks and that sort of thing, but you have, you know, a young Malcolm X and unfortunately he goes into care like of the system, um, and his siblings get separated as well and there is a very interesting.

30:50KT: And you can only imagine what the reaction would be of like this white teacher wasn't like that. What kind of white teacher would talk to little Denzel Malcolm like that? Right? Um, and even notions where in the narration, You know, Malcolm would say there was some point that he just thought the N word was his name, right? And he was well liked, he was like, I think he was head of the class or whatever the equivalent was. Um, and he wanted to be a lawyer and the teacher's like, a carpenter is a good job for you people.

31:26Oti: He said something

31:28KT: else, but that's what I will say for brevity. Um, and I guess it kind of, you know, it kind of makes sense. He becomes a statistic. He falls to a life of crime. He'd be fucking on those white women's, um, and you know, it is a very interesting sort of betrayal. And I think that's the sort of betrayal that, you know, if people were doing a documentary about themselves, they probably would want to polish it up.

31:58Oti: Yeah.

31:59KT: Um, if anyone's playing at home, Denzel did all of his dancing, there wasn't any body doubles. Um, and it's a very specific time in his life. And I think it is, it is quite formative to the rest of the story and obviously his life and legacy too. We also meet West Indian Archie. You mean Delroy Lindo? Um, and you know, that whole era speaks to, you know, a time. And like you said in your book, unfortunately, it feels like every time is a time. Um, but you know, talking about racial tension. And that sort of thing. And, you know, even coming to the point where he gets into prison, which I feel like is the Malcolm X, you know, the, the Genesis of Malcolm X, when they're in the courtroom, the women are, the white women's are essentially given a slap on the wrist.

32:56Oti: Oh, you bad,

32:58KT: you bad. You roll around with black men. You bad. Um, and then these guys got, was it, was it 10 consecutive convictions? Sentences. Um, concurrent.

33:10Oti: The judge was like, Oh, I got them there. But the current,

33:16KT: um, and I guess to remind the audiences on, you know, what time it was and what time it is. And, you know, the, the transformation that he goes, he meets Baines. In prison, there is that whole scene in the shower of like, stop trying to like burn yourself alive or kill yourself, like to be like the white man, the whole white devil's dictionary, but that's the only dictionary that's available. Hint hint.

33:46Oti: Yeah. Um, when you, when you read the definition of black associated with evil.

33:53KT: Devoid of light

33:54Oti: and then white, pure.

33:59KT: And you know,

34:01Oti: and you know, what's, uh,

34:04KT: interesting. And I, I hope there are documentaries out there just to talk about religion in general, because Islam must be very appealing. Because Christianity and friends and lovers, I, you know, we, we understand that we have, um, Christian friends and lovers, but you can't deny that it was a tool of colonialism, no matter how much it means to you, no matter how true it might mean to you, it was a tool of color, like colonization. Right. And a lot of it is helpful in turning of the other cheek, right. Being understanding of your oppressors again. Love Jesus, whichever iteration of Jesus you have, but it very much is bowing your head and being subservient. So to have Islam, yeah,

34:56Oti: give Caesar what's unto Caesar, and then everything else will be judged in the other realms, in the outer realms, by fucking Shao Kahn or something. Yeah, we're living here in the now. And these are the things that I had growing up and listening and wondering what the fuck you watch Malcolm X, you understand there's, there's this discrepancy, there's a weirdness. You learn about the history of Kenya, African countries growing up, South Africa was still bloody fucking going through apartheid barely got out of it. And You're here being taught give unto Caesar what's fucking her to Caesar

35:39KT: and if we can pop your Gandhi cherry friends and lovers He probably did a lot of popping cherries because we talked about those spiritual leaders But like specifically talking about South Africa and Gandhi Everyone likes to quote the quotes. They want to do they do it for MLK as well, right? Gandhi Was so abhorred by the notion that he would be clumped with black South Africans that he petitioned He tried to creole himself But he's like very clearly i'm not black treat me differently, please Maybe not as good as you whites, but treat me differently.

36:18KT: It's like fuck off Fuck you and fuck everyone that thinks that he's a leader. Fuck everyone

36:25Oti: That's the energy, right? but still understanding the world view and appreciating that there's differences, there's subtleties, there's things that you don't know. And Malcolm X takes us through the journey of self discovery.

36:39KT: Oh, absolutely.

36:40Oti: He said things that I remember, I think it was in the, after or watching the documentary afterwards, or at least the snippets afterwards. And, and one of the regrets that he said Malcolm had was Being harsh to this, uh, alleged

36:55KT: student

36:57Oti: where he was

36:58KT: like, Oh, she didn't learn a f g thing. Dumb b ch. Take your Gandhi pin and your, take your Gandhi pin and your MLK tote bag. That was an alleged student. Student all my life,

37:20Oti: man. I sucked at school. Jesus Christ. I'm an alleged student. Um,

37:25KT: Come back to, come back to the white light, Oti. Don't be devoid of the light.

37:33Oti: Alleged student is ridiculous. Oh my. Um, it was, oh, as a white person or some, what's the one thing that I can do to help the cause, help the movement? And Malcolm was very a matter of fact, nothing, just get outta the way. Just get outta the way, you know, and by the time we get to the end and he understands that, oh, there's actually different type of people who practice Islam. There's this.

38:08KT: Not the Islam thing, just about the student, but continue your training.

38:12Oti: Say the student, I can see there's something bubbling.

38:15KT: Well, I've made it clear. No, but I've made it clear. If you're only living in our audio world, friends and lovers, I'm not black. I do Stop it! Alleged student. Um, but I do as much as I can to You know, I do as much as I can without inserting myself into shit, right? Especially when it comes to black stories, black narratives, black lives, black issues, right? She pissed me off. Why are you asking what you can do? Shut the fuck up and go and do it. Go and fight your racist grandparents. Go and fight those institutions. If you're, if you're a beneficiary of the 400 years of labor, there was even a line, I think it was Baines that said it to Malcolm. They think they'll give us one baseball player and we'll forget the 400 years, right?

39:16KT: If you benefit and you're one of those rich people that donate pools to the universities, Lori Loughlin, Felicity Huffman, But if, if you are those people and your name is all over like facilities, names in universities, challenge that, fight that, you know what the white power is, use it for good. Don't be Pino Giantotoro, love you. No, but really, that is a whole list of shit you can do. Don't burden. A black person, specifically an iconic figure like Malcolm X, why are you bothering him? Leave him alone. You don't need a badge by the black community to do something because that in and of itself is a gesture.

40:12Oti: I hear that, but he he he's, he's, he's out there talking, telling people what to do. It's only. It's only sort of understandable that someone would approach him for that again, the hard stance we get to see soften because like, uh, this is where we had sort of differing thoughts, not me and you, but growing up, I was always leaning towards Malcolm's way of thought.

40:51KT: Mm.

40:53Oti: And I always saw because of everything that Africa had gone through and you'd always hear all these things that they try and preach or try and say, or even just reading, take, take any book, take any country in Africa and just read like things as close as fucking 1960 in South Africa, 1992, just the other day. It's stock shit. Yeah. So every in history class, you'll be taught about this. You'll be told a, in Kenya, we had the Mau Mau revolution. They're like, no, we don't take any prisoners. What are we gonna do? Yes, you have guns, but we'll fucking calm farm.

41:34KT: Yeah.

41:35Oti: You know,

41:36KT: shout out to Jomo Kenyatta when they had a banner in the background.

41:42Oti: They

41:42KT: had Marcus Garvey. They had other African leaders, including Jomo Kenyatta there.

41:46Oti: Yeah, I'm getting shot up. Like, bruh, that man was dodgy as hell. But, you know, we're living. Wait, at the time of

41:53KT: revolution though, everyone had a part to play. Everyone had a part to play. Others hid and others threw their brothers under the bus.

42:02Oti: But

42:02KT: everyone had a part to play and everyone had pockets to fill. That's the Oti memoir right there.

42:08Oti: And that's the frustration, right? And that's what this movie boils down to.

42:12KT: Ooh.

42:13Oti: I can, I can be angry at the systemic systems that are keeping black people down around the world. I can be angry that we seem to accept crumbs for all that. And it's sometimes we just need a mentality change and, and to look at things a bit differently and to not feel as if we can accept shit just because. And what Malcolm shows us is you don't need, there's the hard line and sometimes, and like Spike Lee says, in Do the Right Thing. He said, if someone was coming to attack you, you defend yourself because it's the intelligent thing to do, right?

43:09KT: Or do you, are people just okay with certain groups being annihilated? That doesn't make any sense.

43:15Oti: It's intelligence at that point. So I'm for, I'm for that, but in this day and age, let's, let's, let's still uphold some embers of wanting to see ourselves better. Which feels like it's so fucking long gone, man. Sometimes I wonder,

43:36KT: I guess while we're here, you know, you talked about your, was it your high school debate? Or if Kenya was very truly free. And I think this still feels very related to Malcolm X. Um, but I, No, but I do want to speak to it because true, true, though, because we also have South Africa and white South Africans getting scared on Elon Musk's Twitter, like, um, and what, what it actually means of reclamation. And we're seeing that potentially in South Africa, potentially. Potentially blocking USAID friends and lovers. This is when you remember this is an independent production, then we can say whatever the fuck we want to say, and we're going to say it to its whole totality. You also have Senegal as well. Um, there's a reclamation going on there.

44:29KT: Um, Burkina Faso, who Meek Mill knows very, very familiarly, um, there are real conversations to be had. I don't know if we want to say them, but there are also Kenyan leaders that are going to African economic forums that are saying the good things, whether that actually reflects into real life, whether that actually trickles down to the everyday person. And, I guess we can look to protesting the finance bill.

45:01Oti: African leaders need to stop traveling. Why are you going to fucking Doha to say, Oh, this is the economic African summit forum, bro. Fuck off. Oh,

45:15KT: get your hands out of our economics. So everyone should travel, but not African leaders. Is that what you're saying?

45:22Oti: Yeah. Stay at home. Do something. Jesus. Man's outside the country more often, more than he's at home.

45:30KT: This is Oti X. This is Oti X right here. Um, but before we get into the rest of the common and recurring themes, there was, um, you know, a speech near the end. And you can also look it up on YouTube friends and lovers. You can hear Malcolm X also say it as well saying it's hypocritical of African nations, Asian nations, um, you know, to denounce. The apartheid without acknowledging what's going on in to black Americans in the U.S. as well. It's like, how do you, how do you denounce one without acknowledging the other? Right?

46:05Oti: Because it's, it's, it's the breadcrumbs. It's, Ooh, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's the term it's, it's freedom in anything, but the name. So you're here pretending, you know, the context of, Ooh, you're free, but you can't do shit.

46:20KT: Yeah.

46:21Oti: Whilst the other group is being oppressed, just. Pretty much the same thing, but they don't have any sort of disillusion or illusion of freedom. Yeah. Because a, they don't. And you know, someone else thinks, Oh, we're free because we can walk out the street.

46:39KT: But do

46:39Oti: what?

46:40KT: With what?

46:41Oti: Mm.

46:42KT: Employed where?

46:43Oti: Mm. Without money.

46:44KT: Protected by?

46:46Oti: Oh, you want to tell me you want to start your own city and you know, your own businesses? No, we'll burn that shit down.

46:55KT: Yeah.

46:57Oti: Bro, what freedom?

47:00KT: Cry Freedom?

47:01Oti: Mmm.

47:02KT: Wrong portrayal, eh? Mm hmm. Um, I, I guess before we go to the other common and recurring themes, how was it as a young kid in Kenya seeing Nelson Mandela in Malcolm X? Was it, was it, was it as impactful as it was, or was it because you were young and you're like, okay, this is a film and then it kind of rippled into its impact later on in your life.

47:29Oti: No, that's what Mandela was huge. Um, even growing up, you could, you could see. He just exudes that. Yeah. Right. So he's the leader of men. But growing up as a, as a kid watching this, I was like, fuck, I was geeking out watching Nelson there and just call him Nelson as if he's my friend. But wow. Yeah. Good. Thanks, man.

48:03KT: General, um, sort of themes. This is from Andre. All of his films being considered a Spike Lee joint. Absolutely.

48:10Oti: Oh, a hundred percent.

48:11KT: Direction, stylistic choices, Brown, Brown, Brown, Brown friends and lovers. We have a later entry, um, but one that is most welcome. This is from Dan. Um, recently I did a collab of Queen Latifah on their podcast, The Film Stage, the B-Sides. So this is his, um, he wrote, he had a very lovely write up, um, which we're going to get to. Spike Lee is a master at work and one of his most vital things he does in his openings is to make them essential to the story he's telling. Whether it's a credit sequence or a cold open, what's on screen is both part of the narrative and a glimpse beyond the story's edges. When Lee starts a film, he provides a larger context beyond character and plot. The images aren't just part of the story being told, they're a part of a larger American story.

49:06KT: The resulting films then. can be political history, cultural analysis, or both.

49:13Oti: Oof.

49:14KT: Oof. In his write up, he does specifically mention Malcolm X. So I'm just going to quickly read it. In Malcolm X, Lee connects past with present as Malcolm's speech soundtracks footage of the Rodney King beating and a full framed burning American flag, itself 1970 film Patton.

49:34Oti: Wow.

49:35KT: Before recording this, we actually rewatched the opening sequence. It's also on YouTube, friends and lovers, if you want to go watch it. And, you know, life has been a bit busy. So it kind of made sense that even though we had to, we couldn't watch it in its whole, um, duration, where we stopped was kind of where it started to ramp up Malcolm X wise. Right. Um, and to, to come back and to watch this film and to be reminded of the opening sequence of this film. I want to talk a little bit about that. We've got the speech here. I don't think we need to read the speech. It's on YouTube as well. Friends and lovers. Sometimes I will read the quotes of movies, but I'm not going to read this one.

50:26KT: Um, but I want to hear your thoughts about

50:30Oti: oh, 100%. It sets the tone of who Malcolm X is and what to expect from the movie and what, how he got to be Malcolm X and him learning and growing. You know, we, we get to see movies where there's very little character development, but not in this. There's somersaults of development happening in this at every single time.

50:59KT: Somersaults of development. There you go. And

51:03Oti: I didn't think the aspects of me that I still remember Malcolm X is just being the first half, you know, his, his, his very militant it's this or it's my way or no way.

51:18KT: Yeah.

51:19Oti: So to see the softening and him learning and him traveling and understanding, uh, being disappointed in fucking man and realizing that there's fallibility in a lot of these things, even the things that you hold dear. Oh, a hundred percent. It sets the tone for what we are to expect, but I also. allows us to know that that's not its entirety. There's still so much more about Malcolm or the movie in Do the Right Thing. It's the, uh, it's Mookie swinging, you know, walking down the street and us being enveloped into the whole world and it showed us and Do the Right Thing, how, you know, what's to expect the grand job, you know,

52:15KT: like a panorama

52:17Oti: show us that, Oh, this is a lived world. This is a lived experiences.

52:22KT: Yeah, that carries on here, mama. Um, I loved the speech. It was interesting because when we did Do the Right Thing, even before we watched the Cannes panel, I was like, I was wondering what the backlash would have been. And you were like, well, backlash, like for me, it was clear there would have been backlash for Do the Right Thing. Watching Malcolm X, I was like, first off, how did they get a studio in a world where Substance couldn't be made as a studio and they did it independently to have Malcolm X be done through a studio, I think is gorgeous.

53:03KT: And it's beautiful. It speaks to black artistry. It also speaks to the importance of ownership, friends and lovers. I know we're talking about studios, but even in that same interview, Um, where was that British person that was interviewing Spike Lee? The interview was actually talking about the studio process. Um, and you know, how it was a four hour rough cut. We can talk about the budget. We, you know, there's so much to talk about. We haven't even talked about the whole journey about the budget. But, um, once I saw the rough cut, they were pretty cool with it. Right. But in that it was a very throwaway comment. But I think it means a lot to now, especially as like us being like independent, uh, creators and, you know, podcasters and that sort of thing, but there was a throwaway line from the journalist saying, so you had exclusive final say, right?

53:57Oti: Yeah.

53:58KT: And Spike Lee said, yes, he says, he said yes for all of his films. He has final say, and that's where friends and lovers, the difference is. And maybe it's annoying to hear me talk about Kendrick Lamar, but that's exactly the point as well. Because the distribution that Kendrick gets, there's only three or four companies that do wide distribution. Music, right? And that's where the contracts are. But all of the ownership, the IP is by me. Right? All of your work, everything that you pour into is yours.

54:34Oti: Yeah.

54:34KT: And they can never take that away from you. Right? Maybe one of these days, Oti and I will finally sit down and rerecord One Night in Miami. Apparently Regina King also, uh, auditioned.

54:48Oti: Oh,

54:48KT: yeah. Same as, um, Tracee Ellis Ross.

54:53Oti: Shabazz.

54:55KT: Yeah. Um, so. Because in there, there are differences. And also, you know, Malcolm X is also portrayed in One Night in Miami, um, but also Sam Cooke. And also there's a Sam Cooke song at the end. Change Is Gonna Come. Very sad, very sad scene. Um, but there was the whole talk about owning your own masters. And I remember you and I had a very fiery conversation that doesn't exist anymore that will most notably most beautifully until we do a full review be on the Malcolm X recording that I said to you, there are different ways to fight for freedom and one of them is owning your masters.

55:37Oti: Yeah. Um, I agree to an extent, but I think we can leave that discussion where we do revisit that movie.

55:48KT: Ooh, that's a nasty cliffhanger Oti, um, but to go back to the opening sequence, it was very, it was very clear. And you know, Spike Lee has talked about in interviews of, you know, why didn't he, I think he said bleak, like he wasn't, um, anticipating nominations, let alone any wins. He was hoping Denzel would win. One he should have won. Um, but he didn't necessarily see. And when they asked him why, he said, because the committee isn't reflective or sympathetic to the experiences of the black American experience. Middle aged white guys are probably have no interest in learning anything or even just watching the film,

56:32Oti: just alleged students,

56:37KT: alleged students and African leaders. That's the, um, that's the mark for today, but let's carry on. We have Cameron. Uh, in regards to having vibrantly visual use of color film stock to evoke feeling and in Malcolm X specifically Cameron talked about how it's classically shot and there are hazy filters.

57:08Oti: Yeah. A hundred percent.

57:10KT: Um, there's also a note here after the assassination actually happens, all of the footages of the Malcolm X as well, um, Nelson Mandela did deliver a Malcolm X speech, but he didn't, um, Agree to say that by any means necessary. So it also cuts to that footage as well. And I think it's a really nice blend of how cinematic it can be, but also how grounded it is by not just documentary footage, but the use of black and white as well.

57:44Oti: 100%.

57:46KT: All right, well, we're getting to what everyone came here to, to look for. This is the double dolly shot. Ben says, Spike double dolly shot when the camera looks like it looks like it's floating. The character's floating. Brent double dolly shot. Pretty sure every one of his movies has at least one double dolly shot people speaking straight to the camera saying manifestos or the direct force. That's Cameron.

58:10Oti: Yeah, in his internal sort of monologue or understanding the or sensing something's gonna go down and battling with it, I guess, psychologically.

58:27KT: This last 40 minutes was the most emotionally tense I've ever felt watching a film. And 40 minutes is a long time to know that something is going to happen to Malcolm, obviously that something isn't going to be a good thing. And like, just literally just around the corner, right? It was a very tense last 40 minutes. And. It was absolutely the way that the film was paced, but it was also that double dolly shot because it kind of feels like, um, you know, like when you like go underwater and everything's like blank, like audibly, it's just, you don't hear anything.

59:16Oti: Yeah.

59:17KT: That's how it felt. And it was like holding your breath and I don't think, I didn't think it was ever possible for me to get teary and cry over a double dolly shot, but fuck man, this got me good, man. Even I'm even thinking about it again and it's making me emotional.

59:40Oti: I had to give a presentation to this week, a walk about mindfulness. And I think this just displays it in bounds. It's the state of being present and disassociating sort of yourself from all of it. And it's just captured, man.

60:02KT: Beautifully. All right, let's move on to music. This is from Brent, his dad, Bill Lee and Terence Blanchard on the musical score. This was more Terence as opposed to Bill, um, Terence Blanchard, the trumpeter, the in the Billie Holiday Quintet. So he makes a cameo appearance. He composed the music for the film and obviously frequent collaborator. He was mentioned in that clip where Spike Lee was talking about his usual crew. Um, Brent music in general, namely jazz and hip hop. Yes, we definitely see that at the start. Um, in the, in the dance hall, not dance hall, dance hall before it was dance hall.

60:42Oti: White panties flying all over. Yeah, Jesus

60:48KT: ever been with a white bitch before. Is that what she said? That's what I heard. Um, Andre Spike Lee was known for his love of jazz music, innovative use of modern music during his career. Yes. Cameron. Military marches in the music score to signify determination rather than destruction. We see that with the dad of Everybody Hates Raymond outside.

61:10Oti: Yeah.

61:12KT: Well, they all like, well, they all like look towards the window. Um, there, there was so many great moments and that absolutely goes towards it. And I love Cameron's wording of determination rather than destruction. Cause you will find when other people were being destructed. Let's move on Ben, documentary footage cut into remind motherfuckers that real life and filmmaking are one in the same.

61:41Oti: Yeah. Within the first two seconds of the movie, man.

61:44KT: Literally. Um, and you know, for those that are familiar with what's referred to, um, as the LA riots, it was the decision that came out because of those white people. Anyway, we know if you know, if you don't know, you can also read up on the two friends and lovers. Uh, we've kind of already touched on this already. Um, this is from Cameron and country boy has also said racism and the black American experience.

62:15Oti: Bucket loads.

62:17KT: Wheelbarrow loads. It was a Grand National loads. Um, also shout out to Al Sharpton.

62:26Oti: Um,

62:28KT: also shout outs to Home Video Hustle because Brent also mentioned, cause I was thinking this too, when we were watching it, because it felt like religious leaders were being made fun of. So it was interesting to see Al Sharpton involved, or you think he just likes the spotlight like that.

62:44Oti: Um,

62:47KT: also Bobby Seale. There's, there's so much, um, references to black power and black culture. Um, if you're aware, friends and lovers, casting and characters, Spike cameo appearance or full blown member of the core cast. That's Ben. I think he did well as Shorty. I think obviously it's not as pivotal as Mookie, but I don't think Spike Lee's indulgent where he would put in a character. That first off he can't act, um, in like other directors, but also it made sense to the story.

63:22Oti: Yeah.

63:24KT: Moving on. We have scenes where multiple characters are ranting, usually racist, sexist, xenophobic shit, angrily in chorus with one another.

63:37Oti: Yeah.

63:39KT: Yeah.

63:39Oti: Yep.

63:42KT: This has been Nice Guy Whites, who shows their true colors.

63:49Oti: Oh,

63:51KT: it's a CIA. I think.

63:53Oti: Yeah.

63:55KT: Yeah. I guess one of the alphabet agencies, um, I actually, I want to, I want to get your thoughts on this because when Malcolm X is going to pilgrimage and I think he does one of the first prayers. Which, um, which was nice. Cause I was like, oh, okay. So like he's learning Arabic as well. Um, which kind of like answer my question earlier when we were watching, um, Malcolm X, when he went into the Nation of Islam, right. But do you think it was, albeit subtle, but do you think it was purposeful that we had Malcolm X breaking bread with his blonde hair, blue eyed Muslim brothers, as well as being.

64:40KT: tailed by two white CIA agents.

64:43Oti: No.

64:45KT: You don't think there's something to be said there?

64:49Oti: I don't. No, not really. I don't want to go down that rabbit hole.

64:55KT: You're just, you're just here for your own people to hold them accountable. Is that what we're doing? Fair. Um, yes, finally. Brent Denzel Washington. Tick, tick, tick.

65:06Oti: Yeah.

65:07KT: Let's lay a little bit of love. I think he did so well. I think he did such a great job.

65:13Oti: Too good. He was magnificent in this.

65:18KT: I think it's interesting, like, watching, researching, like, clips of Malcolm X, and hearing him speak, and the intonation that I am familiar with, with Denzel, is very, there's such a parallel with Malcolm X. And, you know, it's, it's not to say that that's what he's carried on for the rest of his career, but, you know, even the casting for Elijah Muhammad as well, like, I think that was done so well, but Denzel in particular, even before watching, I was like, I can see why this didn't win the Oscar. If, if it's Spike Lee, as far as I understand, Spike Lee, and he's doing a film and he's doing it the way that he wants to shout out to Sofia Coppola, because she said to Spike Lee. Be so far into it that they'll lose money by not making it.

66:07Oti: Yeah, but

66:08KT: that's, that's what you need, right? You need people to like tell you this shit. Um, but you know, to make the film that he wanted to make and not compromise that and have that very important final say. It made sense why this film didn't win the top accolades. And it is unfortunate that Denzel didn't win the Oscar, but it makes sense why. And for those that know and care and understand they, you just see it.

66:42Oti: Yeah, true.

66:44KT: Last point, Public Enemy.

66:46Oti: No, no. But

66:49KT: I think Oti is the public enemy for a few.

66:51Oti: Yeah.

66:54KT: Oh, hoo, hoo. Thank you, friends and lovers, for joining us another week in the For Your Reference household. Did you want to end on anything, Oti? And you don't need to give levity because no one is owed levity. But is there anything you would like to end with, my love?

67:13Oti: Oh. I really enjoyed watching this movie and that's all

67:18KT: I love that. I think you did the right thing. You said you love movies. Now you're saying you enjoyed the movie.

67:27Oti: Yeah, I'm having a blast in this degustation. It's, it's very, muy caliente.

67:33KT: Are you saying that the taste is acclimated to your palate?

67:40Oti: It's designed for my palate.

67:44KT: Um, thank you so much, friends and lovers. Uh, this is not, uh, level one For Your Reference. I guess if you've been in for six years, none of this stuff. Would be shocking to you, but thank you for the love of cinema. Thank you for joining us, friends and lovers on this journey. Um, we have some more courses coming up, Bamboozled. It's on its way. I think, is that new for both of us?

68:11Oti: Yes, it is.

68:13KT: I'm excited. I'm excited. Um, and then we also have BlacKkKlansman and I will try and fit in Chi-Raq, uh, friends and lovers, but thank you again. Happy black history month. If you're not black, go and do something and don't make a big deal about it. Fuck. Yeah. Don

68:33Oti: does dollars all.

68:35KT: No. Well, to be fair, she, if she, she was Heisenberg, she shouldn't have said anything.

68:42Oti: Ah, manifestation of the Nation of Islam Blake on the surface and nothing more. Hey,

68:53KT: I just, I left that for you, bro.

68:57Oti: Ah,

69:00KT: how do we even plug after that? Just come for Oti. Um, yeah, Uh, on the socials, we're @ForYourRefPod,

69:10Oti: Write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com.

69:13KT: Uh, we're also on all of the podcasts, please subscribe to the podcast, friends and lovers, it is a bit wanky to say it, but I am starting to realize that there are things on all of the billionaire socials that I can't even post. And those are the same things that I can't even post on social media. So also love and splooshes to you. Thank you so much for, um, supporting the podcast in its audio format, you know, where Oti can be full nasty. Enjoy that palate cleanser and we will see you on the next course.

69:49Oti: See ya.