Judas and the Black Messiah – Walk the Traitor narrow

Full transcript of Judas and the Black Messiah – Walk the Traitor narrow.

0:00KT: Welcome, welcome friends and lovers, and welcome to the first episode of our third year of podcasting. Hopefully, you've enjoyed the February festivities. We are starting off with a very exciting Patreon announcement. Elaine from Angus Eye Tea is no stranger to our podcast, especially if you've listened to the Splooshies Awards. We also have an Anastasia episode that was tantalizing and delicious. Thank you so much. We'll leave Angus Eye Tea, Elaine's links in the show notes. Let's get on with the show.

0:58KT: Hey, friends and lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host, KT.

0:58Oti: And Oti.

0:58KT: Polish your most menacing pool stick while we identify our biblical traitor. Ya dig in?

1:13Oti: Sounded so natural coming from you, mate.

1:17KT: How dare you? Don't try and KT dollazol me.

1:21Oti: You go there, mate.

1:23KT: Well, we are off to a sizzling start, friends and lovers. As you've read from the title, as you've been satiating, we are covering the 2021 film in every sense of the word, Judas and the Black Messiah. Has the most appropriately named title. Oh, yeah. Second to Bend It Like Beckham. Wow.

1:43Oti: Levels,

1:43KT: I'm

1:45KT: just saying, you know what you're going to get into. And I I guess we can talk about whether we were surprised as we get into the main discussion of the show. But before we sploosh over our love places, let's get into the stats. We have director Shaka King, super amazing, all of the love and accolades. We also have producers Charles D. King, Ryan Coogler, so there's your Black Panther tie in there, and also Shaka King as well. Writing the screenplay, we have Shaka King as well as Will Berson. All of the stars

2:17KT: were out here. We have Daniel Kaluuya, love and appreciate all the love. I know I mentioned he was a up and comer in our Black Panther episode. And I will definitely lay my love for Daniel Kaluuya as we continue film. So let's continue. LaKeith Stanfield, it was nice to see the Get Out crew get back together. Lil Rel also appears later on, so there's some more Get Out going on. And Jesse Plemons

2:41Oti: Mhmm.

2:41KT: Who

2:43KT: in many cases, you've seen him in other roles, so you know he's archetypes, so you might want him to get out. Just while we're in cast, I do wanna give a shout out to Ashton Sanders who was brilliant and so evocative in the Wu-Tang series. Mhmm. And we also have Maxine Shaw, Attorney at Law. Yeah. I was the mom. Yeah. Strong recommendations. Go and watch the Wu-Tang Clan saga. So, what a film Oti. It is a film that I guess some people cringe at or some people not to being timely because unfortunately,

3:21KT: many decades later, black Americans are still fighting for what they were fighting for many decades ago. Yeah. And it's frustrating and, you know, like, I think naturally we'll get into that sort of discussion, but it is a bit disheartening because aside from the fact that we're watching a film, you know, arts is a vessel to convey pain and then a way to challenge mainstream culture. I am glad though that we it leaves room for, you know, Regina King's Watchmen, for example,

4:00KT: Lovecraft Country as well, where it it isn't just about the struggle, but it is also a vessel of entertainment. And it is more mainstream as well, you know, as as much as you can make something mainstream. Oh, yeah. For sure. So let's get into our first impressions, Oti. I think, well, at least personally for me, Judas and the Black Messiah watching that trailer come out of nowhere in the panorama, Pamela Anderson was most welcome. And I think we were all waiting for this film to be available and to have this global sort of dialogue.

4:35KT: So how did you feel leading up to it? I'm also glad that we're covering Daniel Kaluuya again, to be perfectly honest because Oti doesn't give Widows the credit it is due.

4:35Oti: How dare you? I don't know why you keep on saying that. I thought it was a good movie and that's it.

4:35KT: Yeah. But you need to love it as much as I do. Anything else is treacherous.

4:55Oti: Yeah. Yeah. I guess I need to buy a t shirt now. Right?

4:55KT: There's

4:59KT: also some not necessarily misunderstandings,

5:04KT: but I guess there were expectations that some people had going into the film and there was some disappointment because whatever those were weren't being met by the film. So just generally, how did you feel about Judas and the Black Messiah?

5:04Oti: Oh, I think it was a beautifully told story. Mhmm. I thought we were took we're taking it on a journey where it showed us aspect of what the fight entailed. Yep. You know? And I think, like we said in the intro, albeit jokingly,

5:33Oti: like the title told it all. Yeah. And we knew what was coming and that didn't hinder us from enjoying the movie as we went along. And for me, I had no expectations. Uh-huh. And after watching the trailer once a few months ago, it's pretty much gone out of my mind when I sat and just watched this again. Yeah. And I was hoping to see what Shaka was gonna portray for us. Mhmm. And I enjoyed it. The characters I felt are born towards.

6:01Oti: Mhmm. And that such is life, you know? There's nothing else I can say that this movie did not meet or I had some expectations of it, I didn't. But then again, demography and all that. Yeah. So what do you think?

6:14KT: I enjoyed this film. I would say it felt it felt like a slow burn in the sense that, you know, there's there's the topic of race and fighting for equality in America. But that can be a very fiery sort of topic and it it can be a very fiery sort of portrayal, not necessarily in a bad way, but it it becomes very impassioned.

6:37KT: You know, if we're not talking about Fred Hampton's speeches within this film, there were more lingering sort of moments so you can reflect and, you know, be able to digest the scene that just happened and kind of cleanse your palate for what's about to happen. I didn't feel this ongoing sense of stress and anxiousness that,

6:59KT: you know, similar films or TV shows can have with this sort of topic. So that's that's what I mean more by a slow burn. It did kind of remind me in regards to the the pacing of it as like One Night in Miami where a lot is happening but not from the point of view of what people are expecting,

7:19KT: if that makes sense.

7:19Oti: And to me, I felt that a lot of the focus, you know, because I think the protagonist in this instance,

7:30Oti: Bill O'Neal.

7:30KT: Oh yeah, he's the protagonist. He's the Nolan protagonist in this film.

7:37Oti: We've taken through this journey through his land, you know. And I think midway through the movie, you made a comment that you wanted more background to him because surely we can't just start hating a guy for being a dickhead, you know, for being unique and and not

7:37KT: Go and listen to our Taika Waititi Reference Degustation. Thank you, Oti.

7:37Oti: You're welcome. And not fully experiencing what led to his all his decisions up until then. And this is where my knowledge of historical

8:04Oti: events both from Kenya and Afar kicked in. Mhmm. Because self interest is motherfucking key in everything. Self interest has brought revolutions down, has brought fights down, has delayed progress in so many ways. And B O fucking Neal is one motherfucking with the biggest self interest that couldn't see beyond fucking cash Yeah. And kept a group of people behind because he was getting that $200 in the gas station. Yeah. Fucked up, bitch. I'm just gonna say I did not resonate any sort of way. Did not feel like I needed a backstory on O'Neal. I did not feel like I deserved or not even deserved, like I he warranted any sort of exposure based on the fucking decisions he made. And once you put your fucking self interest before everything else, you can piss right off. As a record label and as a motherfucking establishment? Yes.

8:53KT: I like this Oti. This is my favorite Oti collectible.

9:00KT: Well, yeah. I I absolutely get what you're saying. And I I guess before we get into,

9:06KT: you know, full detail and discussions and, you know, to get to the depths of this film, spoiler spoiler spoiler, or in this case, traitor traitor traitor, friends and lovers. You're not a traitor to us. If you listen, we love you just as well. But the reason why I mentioned that is because I'm going to come to the end of the film. So this film is bookended with talking heads, which we come to find out from a documentary. The only on screen interview that Bill O'Neal has ever done. At the start, it was the fictionalized

9:39KT: LaKeith Stanfield and then at the end, it was the actual Bill O'Neal. Right?

9:44KT: And the reason why I wanted to bring this up is because he makes a comment there where he says, I saw that something needed to be done so I went and did it. I'm not like those people I think he called them passive or something. I'm not like those people that just sit there and do nothing. But I would actually dispute that. Not the fact that he went and did something, but the fact that he actually did worse than the people that sat and did nothing because, you know, there's quite a contrast and I won't get into it too much now because I do want us to, you know, talk about it. But, you know, Jesse Plemons'

10:17KT: character Roy, he talks about how very very casually, very nonchalantly, he'll talk about how the Klan and the Panthers are exactly the same. And that is that is a problem. The fact that he sees them as, you know, the bare optics the same, the fact that they incite hatred without recognizing it was such a stark comparison

10:38KT: flicking to the FBI and noticing it was a room of white men. And maybe they didn't notice that, but to notice that the system was built for you and the Panthers exist to try and help build that sort of equality is something that he was completely missing the mark for him. Right? Something that the Panthers would do would get way more scrutiny than what the Klan would do and what the Klan continued to do. Black Wall Street, for example. Right?

11:05KT: So I definitely wanna go into more detail in regards to that, but I just wanted to talk a bit about that statement that Bill O'Neal made because that was his justification, which credit to the film, that's exactly what we saw and that's what LaKeith portrayed.

11:21KT: Right?

11:21Oti: That at least I did something. Mate, we're not asking for fucking bare minimum. Yeah. You know? Bare minimum would be for you to see it out and see how everything unfolds. You purposefully

11:31Oti: undermined a revolution that was happening right before your eyes. Something bigger than anyone could have anticipated. To benefit you and people that look like you. Fred fucking Hampton Yeah. Was uniting everyone. Everyone. Yeah. And what? This idiot comes in, pretends to be part of it. Yeah. You know, even they probably threw him a bone being all teary and and conflicted about what he fucking did. Because Did not must fucking have

11:55Oti: have any emotion when he did that. Yeah. He you know what? I think I'm getting to a rage mode where by the end of the episode, it'll just be me screaming. I need to tone it down a bit. It'll be me. It'll be my intro of our shield episode and our splooshiege. Yes. So they pretend he must have feels conflicted or some sort. And I wasn't there. I can't say for a fact, but just based on the characters I know who value themselves above everything else, especially like this,

12:21Oti: when you purposefully know what's fucking five years in jail? What's that? Yeah. Fred was gonna do five years. And he was getting a his wife was pregnant and it's just bloody ridiculous. The contrast between Fred and Bill. Yeah. You know, he's a guy who despite his history, he was swindling, he was he was stealing cars and whatnot. But then when he joined Black Panther, there was an opportunity for him to do some good. Yeah. You know, probably he did a little bit of work here and there and apparently credit to him of on rebuilding

12:51Oti: helping to rebuild the Black Panther headquarters once he was blown up. But you can't pick and choose ideologies.

12:57KT: Right? Because all of what Fred Hampton was saying and how impassioned he was in his speeches was falling upon traitorous deaf ears. Because how can he just take the parts that he likes, but he also neglects.

13:12KT: There was a very recurring theme that Fred Hampton had in his dialogue throughout the film and it was that power is people. And it's exactly what you were saying earlier that, you know, it can take one person for a revolution to fall. So as much as he felt so good and he was feeling the vibes and he felt a belonging and community and he was feeling like there was a sense of healing being part of the Black Panthers, like you said, it was all for fucking naught because he still went back and fed information more than I thought he even needed to, to be perfectly honest. But it seemed like he had no loyalty to anyone. Being threatened with jail time. Yeah. Five years, three years, or seven years, whatever you wanna add to it, to bring down a movement that wanted to help people, that wanted to free people. Yeah.

13:12Oti: He was uniting a lot of people. And that

14:03Oti: and that scared the the big man. Yeah. Because then then you can't demonize one race. You can't dehumanize one race. It's not just it's not just the black people, you know? Yeah. Everyone's uniting because there's an issue. Yeah. And his actions, how many years now? Yeah. We're still fucking dealing with the same problems. It's mind blowing, you know, that he felt justified and he thought he true drive team as some sort of fucking hero Yeah. For doing his own, getting his own fucking gas station. His family probably benefiting at up until now. His $202,100,000

14:35Oti: dollars is made off the FBI being an informant. Mate, that's not even Bubs' money. Yeah. You know? The Wire? Yeah. Okay. And and I feel very strongly against this character and I feel like the sooner we focus on the plot, the better.

14:35KT: Alright. Well, let's get into it, friends and lovers. I just wanted to

14:52KT: comment on something that I picked up on throughout the film and I just wanted to know your thoughts on it because, you know, a lot of the time when we're talking about films that cover race and fighting for equality, it's, you know, black Americans versus white Americans. But it felt very deliberate to me that the fight was from within the camps. Albeit, you know, Bill was being a puppet, He was still dutiful and he was still of mind enough to have the responsibility

15:25KT: of taking down his own. Yeah. And that was something that I just I just couldn't reconcile. I couldn't reconcile and, you know, that that little KT heart in me was hoping that in the last minute, you know, he'll just turn around and not betray his own people. Oh no, but you got a tearful scene there. Him very

15:46KT: conflicted and very sorry for what he did. Yeah. But then the moments after, he'll go and spew out the information. So it's more that I I was very conscious of the fact that it was called Judas and the Black Messiah. So there's a lot of weightiness in the title. So, you know, shame on me for thinking that I was gonna get that that that moment.

16:07KT: And I didn't want it for Bill, I wanted it for myself. So it was a very selfish thing while I was watching the film, but I don't believe he deserved any sort of recompense.

16:16Oti: No recompense at all. I think when Hoover put a pin on on Fred and we saw Jesse Plemons' character Roy there Yeah. He knew what was going down. He was like, yeah. How can what's the best way can you can you bring these people down, You know? And as soon as he got his grasp on Bill, we knew exactly what's it gonna be. He was gonna let a Trojan horse Yep. And just cause all the fucking chaos. Yeah. And to me when when we had Judy doubt Bill's intentions

16:45Oti: Mhmm. He had an answer for fucking everything. Since when does someone have an answer for every single irregularity like that? You know fucking something's wrong. Mhmm. Oh, I hot wired the car. How'd you get the keys? I changed the lock. How'd you change the lock? I have a shop.

17:01Oti: How'd you get the shop? I'm a no no. Don't you see? Like, there was just one after the other after the other. I was like, fucking hell. Yeah. Shoot the guy already. There's nothing to lose there. Yeah. When you say that when you're in this kind of if you're on revolutionary and you're dealing with all sort of things like paranoia is your fucking friend. Yeah. You know? FBI,

17:22Oti: as we know from history, can go to the lowest of lows to get what the fuck they want. Yep. So don't don't think that it's too low of them to get a black person to that's even expected. Yeah. You should expect that shit. Yeah.

17:22KT: And it's interesting because you were mentioning earlier like, you know, Fred Hampton was so ready but, know, we we come to, you know, further solidify

17:44KT: that because he mentions that he gives his life to the cause. Obviously,

17:49KT: we weren't expecting Bill to have that but also at the same time, he was he was a criminal. So it would be dutiful for him to go to jail anyway. But I guess it's just like the Ashur in him, Spartacus reference. For him to want to survive, you know, beyond all doubt. Because if he had escaped right at the start of the movie when Roy caught him and he just disappeared and tried to go on the run, that would have been much easier because when we get further into the movie, the hooks are set in him. And he is deeper and deeper in the web and he can't get out. And I I guess this is a qualm that I have. I I know this is based on a true story,

18:28KT: but also at the same time, it is a vessel of entertainment and there is a story. So for me, there needs to be depth of characters, especially if agreed in our FYR curriculum that Bill is the protagonist, non Nolan trademark of the film, then he needed to have more dimension to him. Like, didn't wanna have an American Idol sub story, but I definitely wanted to have a bit more context as to his motivations as a person. Because I don't understand how you just wake up, try to evade jail,

19:04KT: but the cost of that the cost of that is betraying your own. I can never reconcile that. And I guess maybe to soften that edge would be to give us a bit more of an inkling like, was he shunned by his own community? Did people throw and spit hate in his direction? Like, why doesn't he care

19:24KT: about black people as much as the next person down the road?

19:24Oti: Well, and I guess the perfect litmus test in the movie for that was when Roy asked him, how did you feel when Martin Martin Luther King died? Yeah. He said, oh, that was sad, I think, kind of. How did you feel when Malcolm X died? Bruv, why ask me all these questions?

19:46Oti: And it just stopped painted the picture for him. He knew I've got my candidate. I've got him a perfect candidate. He would do exactly what he needs just to preserve himself and no one else.

19:46KT: It's a Judas litmus test, is it not?

19:46Oti: It it is. It really is.

19:46KT: But but that's what I'm saying. Like, we we had no choice but to not root for him is what I'm saying. So I'm saying from obviously, because I I I don't know enough about the history.

20:11KT: From a story point of view, I felt like he was a bit lacking. Because, you know, to to sit there and do nothing is to me from my point of view, you're minding your own business. But to go out of your way and continue to feed information to institution that just wants to see not only you, but everything you stand for, that glimmer of hope diminish, that's a big cost. And and I couldn't reconcile

20:40KT: why he so easily did it because up until they had that tearful moment, but even after that tearful moment, I didn't really see any sort of inner conflict

20:50KT: for Bill. And then when I did see per chance any sort of conflict within him, it was him trying to make sure he wasn't getting ratted out. It wasn't him seeing the bigger picture.

20:50Oti: Right. And the moment that I knew that he'd already fully bought in, he went when he was in Roy's house and he was like, oh man, how much money are you making? Boy, oh boy, I've got a whole lot of information for you. Yeah. But I, you know, scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. And it's just that matter of, I couldn't see beyond that in terms of trying to relate to this guy and thinking, oh my God, did he what kind of childhood did he have? What kind of portrayal did he grow up in where he didn't really care about black people and their cause?

21:31Oti: And to just stand there firmly isolated in in getting money for yourself. What are you gonna spend it on? Yeah. What are you gonna spend it on? When every every other fucking person is being killed off, you'll be there with your fucking money all alone with what what use would it be? More petroleum,

21:47Oti: I suppose. Does that guy say?

21:47KT: Right. Because you know, there was a very interesting setup at the start of the film. We we didn't mess around, which I thought was great. We got straight to what the premise of this film would be. And I really enjoyed satiating the setup of the dynamic between Bill and also Fred. It was very interesting to me. And I I thought we would get into some some real tangible

22:14KT: moments between the two of them. Right? Because in this particular case, Bill was being forced to do this. So I was like, okay, as much as this is a terrible thing, he's doing it because he has to, right? But as he continued to generously offer information, it started to weigh in on me why? Like why are we going through this? And obviously, it's it's to replicate life events and people are just fucking assholes and that's what happened. But at the same time, from a like, from a from a cat and mouse

22:51KT: tit for tat sort of chase, I wasn't necessarily getting that because everything he did reinforced his betrayal. There wasn't any moments where he slipped and and he wanted to help the Black Panthers and he he he gave them information beforehand so they could be ahead of the curve. There were no moments of that. That just brings a further disconnect to who he was as a character and us trying to resonate with him in whatever level we thought we could. So

23:18Oti: we just watched him float along the story causing all this mess and causing all these issues and especially just by the title, you exactly know what's gonna pan out. Yeah. If you're not familiar with the history, you knew exactly what was gonna happen anyway.

23:18KT: Hang on. For those playing at home, would you like to enlighten us with the story?

23:18Oti: Oh, Judas was one of the of Jesus' 12 disciples. Mhmm. Yeah. And I think using Black on Messiah is fucking redundant. We've just been Messiah because we know Jesus was black. Hey yo. It's

23:52Oti: like free gratis yourself in this

23:54KT: That's a nice that's a nice plug for our Prince of Egypt episode.

23:59Oti: But you know what? When New Orleans gonna happen, he betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver and a kiss. Mhmm. You know, with a kiss, kissed him on the cheek, took the silver and then I was like, that's the man. So we knew what was gonna happen. And in this case, his price was $200 and a gas station. Yeah. There you go.

23:59KT: While

24:19KT: we're talking about Bill, I wanna talk about a key scene of Bill being reminded of what happens to snitches because that actually had some texture to it.

24:19Oti: Oh yeah. He fought even harder not to get his identity revealed and he wanted out as soon as possible. If he was ever found out that he was a snitch, you knew exactly what would happen to him. Mhmm. You know, these are not people fucking around. Yeah. Because then we found out that, you know,

24:42Oti: there was another informer that was killed. Mhmm. And apparently, he wasn't even there. The informer was safe and just they're chilling. Yeah. The FBI were doing this every single place. And the disguise that they were picking would dries up their ranks pretty quickly because they could offer the big guy something. For like, for Bill's case, could offer to drive Fred around town everywhere he would want to go. You know what? Like, there are lot of fucking atrocities the FBI and the CIA have done. Yeah.

25:10Oti: It buggers belief that that these are institutions you should be putting trust in or whatever because history cannot just be erased by a flick of a, you know?

25:10KT: This is a very naive

25:22KT: pink and fluffy KT. It just bothered me that the FBI weren't playing fair and they were playing dirty and they were known as an institution. But then you have, you know, the media as well as the FBI and the broader sort of America demonizing the Black Panther Party. Even in that article, we see them being called terrorists. It just bothered me that they didn't play fair. And in that example of the informant,

25:51KT: they found a loophole and he just travels to all of the different chapters and then they snatch them up because they're harboring a fugitive. Yeah. I hate that. Roy kept on comparing Black Panthers with KKK.

26:03Oti: Yeah. You know what the difference is? KKK is still fucking there, mate. Oh. Fucked, mate.

26:03KT: Well, Fred Hampton Jr. is the captain of the Black Panther cubs. So

26:03Oti: Well, there's that. But we know the institution got dissolved in '78. So there's nothing like, oh, Black Panther is still somewhere living and breathing and doing the thing because they are not. But KKK who they kept on comparing to, how can you protect these people? They're just as bad as the KKK. But KKK made it still there, it's still growing, has fucking charters everywhere.

26:03KT: True. And

26:35KT: this actually is very relevant to another one of the brilliant dialogues that Fred Hampton has where he talks about war and politics.

26:46Oti: He said politics is war without bloodshed and war is politics with bloodshed.

26:46KT: And that actually

26:52KT: hits the nail on the head because there's a complicity there. There is no way that a war can be waged without political, at least acknowledgement, at least knowledge.

27:04Oti: Yeah. Hoover wasn't making these decisions off the top of the fucking heart. Yeah. We know you had to come all the way from the fucking top. Yeah. That's how things work. Exactly.

27:13KT: And it's so it's so embedded and, you know, you talked about the Klan and, you know, there's that tie in from the politics as well. Like for for a system to continue to exist that only benefits some people and continues to oppress and disadvantage others, it becomes a deliberate thing at that point. And

27:34KT: that oh, again, some people don't like the word timely, but it was very timely because these are lessons that the people are supposed to be learning and the ones that are supposed to be learning aren't fucking listening. No. Let's focus a little bit more on Fred.

27:34Oti: Well, we know he's this charismatic guy, you know,

27:52Oti: he can charm anyone's pants off. Yep. Like they said in the movie, it could sell salt to a snail. So so we know exactly his capabilities. It's his tongue and it's his word. Yeah. And we saw this very clear that when it comes to people who have such a strong presence that they can move crowds just by their words, know, not even actions,

28:17Oti: just to rally people of different race and creed. Yeah. That speaks a whole lot more and that's why he was a target because there's no way they could let such a charismatic guy be free to roam around and cause havoc to the system. But it's hope. It's hope. It's hope. But hope gets diminished. Hope hope gets squashed just like that. Deprived enough of air, you have nothing. True. And Hoover said this as well in the movie. We had Huey, they're turning into they're still talking about him and all these histories, know. Everyone that was sent to jail and was never killed off, they're still cult heroes. They're being thought of as as, oh, you know, remember Huey and they sing their songs and they do whatever. He didn't want any of that for Fred. He wanted Fred dead and gone. Yeah. And hopefully forgotten with history, you know, with enough time. And to me, just spoke to the to to Fred's strength. And we got to see that. We got to see that. I think his I am a revolutionary speech. Oh, It's fucking so powerful. I love that they added that at the end of the film as well. It it reminded so much of Regina King's One Night in Miami, where we had Sam Cooke without a mic, the crowd going rowdy in just talk, you know, he commanded attention. Oh yes. Imagine

29:29Oti: that elevated to a presence where, you know, and and we got into a discussion through this when we're talking about One Night in Miami, you know, where Malcolm wanted Sam to do more, to be more. And now we see a person of that caliber who has the same tongue to move people, to sway people, to motivate

29:50Oti: people. Yeah. Do his thing. And of course, we knew exactly what that would bring, trouble. And he knew that he was gonna die by doing what exactly he's doing. And he was not afraid. Yeah. The girl was bloody fucking 21. But you can't be afraid if you are fighting for radical change. And radical not in the terrible textbook sense of it all, but the fact that everything needs to fucking change. Right?

29:50KT: And if you do want to hear

30:16KT: Oti talk about One Night in Miami, you heard him earlier talking about Bill the traitor, Bill the Judas. Oti gets even more fired up talking about One Night in Miami and we just covered it on our Patreon Ref Plus. So feel free to go and check that out because it is friends and lovers. But yeah, one of one of the impassioned speeches that many of the speeches that Fred has in the film is where he talks about America being on fire right now. And it's exactly like you're saying, it's the evocation

30:51KT: of his words. America is on fire right now. And with every fiber of your being, you know exactly what he's talking about. Yeah. And it's this beautiful thing, you know, we have Deborah coming along and it's this will they, won't they, not your friends sort of cat and mouse, but it's the Judas and Messiah of it all. She talks about how he is a poet because I guess he had this connotation of this is what poets are. But it's it's that effectiveness.

31:18KT: It's the pen that you wield. Oh, for sure. And and you are a mouthpiece for the cause. And that's exactly what Fred was. And, you know, you talk you talked a lot about, you know, the key call out where it wasn't just fighting for black Americans, but he was bringing in Puerto Rican people. They also walked in,

31:38KT: you know, where the white people were gathering with the confederate flag. And, you know, he it's it's very interesting and I wanna go back to that particular scene in a moment, but he does talk about his oppressed brothers and sisters of every color. And you would see that they would meet, they would all rally together, and they would take turns talking about cases that needed attention. They were the OG Twitter. Oh, for sure. Without of the toxicness and then Twitter jail. Oh, definitely.

32:06Oti: And I think that spoke to his strength as well. Know, it wasn't just a black issue. It cut across board. Yeah. Why focus on a race when you can be so much stronger together? And that's what his art view was. Was it if he was getting to go and negotiate with the Crowns, know? Yeah. Let's do this together because there's a better picture. Yeah. And I don't think the Crowns leader even bought it when they had the one to one. And when they walked into the warehouse building where they're all surrounded with guns. Yeah. He was like, you know what? You take this gun and go. But when he was in that church with everyone and hearing the I am a revolutionary speech, the guy could not help himself but start clapping because he was witnessing history in the fucking making.

32:06KT: Well, there's one thing. You can have what I think you've referred to as a spin doctor. Like, you can have someone that talks really good game. Right? But Fred was really about it. And even to,

32:58KT: you know, Deborah being at being at a, you know, loggerheads with herself and and for Fred Hampton Jr. to be, he was dedicated to the cause and to fight for the people. And not even like the future fight, but also looking after, you know, they talked about their breakfast program. Right? I do wanna talk about him reaching out. And one of those moments is when they went to the bar to talk to the Crowns. And obviously, he went there because he wanted to organize a meet. But he he came in very charmingly

33:33KT: with his flyers talking about the breakfast program. Everyone knows who he is, but he's still doing that dutiful, very cheeky sort of way. But he was doing that work. And obviously, he it could have ended badly for him the same way when he walked into that white congregation. And we have our beloved Ashton Sanders playing Jimmy, and he gets very emotional in this scene, understandably so, because when he sees that flag, he thinks of his family being lynched. Yeah. Right? So there there is so much truth being spoken,

34:06KT: but there is hurt that is universal. And that's exactly what Fred was doing. He was the glue. He was unifying the people. And right after that moment of Jimmy, he said that they could have helped us back then. So don't don't completely demonize them because that's not what we're about here.

34:06Oti: Yeah. Yeah. So true. So so true. And I think one of the things that I really loved about this portrayal

34:29Oti: was that it wasn't just about warfare or or being super radical. He wanted to better the community, you know, be it a medical center, free food, he had plans. Yeah. He had plans of how he wanted the community to feel and to live. Yeah. You know, to feel like you're humans with a purpose, with decent enough food, know, you don't have to struggle for fucking basic necessities.

34:53KT: Life isn't for survival, life is for living. Yeah. And and that's where he wanted to go. Mhmm. You know? And you can paint it all as this radical, they were doing this and that. But at the end of the day, they wanted something that everyone else got that had an upper hand. Oh, absolutely. And even even the moment where it was it was made very clear to them that his life was in danger. Even the Crowns were like, dude, you need to skip town. Right? And he took that money and he's like, no, use this for the people. I want everyone to just watch and realize

35:25KT: what courage looks like because it's Fred Hampton personified.

35:25Oti: And through our history, you know, while growing up in Kenya and we're taught about Black Panther and all. Yeah. There's no you miss all the nuances. You miss all the nuances. But from my perspective, when we're also learning about the Mau Mau fighters who are fighting colonialism

35:47Oti: in Kenya Mhmm. They wanted to paint them as some fucking weirdos who, oh, they used violence and that was not a good way of doing things. But who the fuck, What other way could they get out of the shackles of the man? Yeah. So I appreciate how they put you in this and I think it should be remembered throughout history.

35:47KT: Well, dividing people is very effective and to keep people divided, fear is very very effective. And you know, even to what we were talking about earlier about the FBI using

36:16KT: Bill to infiltrate his own, it did feel, you know, I was feeling themes of, you know, the nineties in Rwanda and tribalism being used as a weapon against the Rwandan people. Yeah. Fully agreed. No. Sometimes

36:31Oti: I can't trust anyone else. Not even Mui?

36:35KT: We're the greatest salt. Salt to us now. There's your circle jerk reference. Done and dusted. Let's expand the Black Panther Party.

36:44Oti: Let's talk a little bit about I wanna start off with Jimmy and Jake. Oh, man. You could tell that Jimmy has had a rough life. Yeah. He I don't think he smiled, which is fine but It's alright. You know, sort of line of his experiences when he got triggered by the flag. Yeah. And no one should be able to see that at such a young age. Yeah. He grew up with that hate and that anger. Yeah. Absolutely. And also his life has been painted in one way and there was only one way for him. And especially when he was walking across and seeing that two cops were passing in on a cafe. And that's what I don't get because there's a lot of rhetoric about police not being above the law. But when he asked a very reasonable question of what are you doing? You know, he got shot. If that's not above the law, then I don't fucking know.

36:44KT: I I think it's sad that,

37:33KT: you know, he felt like he needed to help the people, but then he didn't have a vest or anything. So he was kind of just going in naked. So you kind of knew there was only one way this scene was going to go, which was very unfortunate. But then again, it furthers how much he was for the cause as well.

37:33Oti: Yeah. But he did survive. But the way he was killed after that is what broke our poor Jake's

37:57Oti: heart because he was just with him the other day. I was just with him. How do you That mean he was a really beautiful moment. I was really just with him. I spoke to him. When he was trying to give the books and the the cop said no. So then he started reading out aloud. Yeah. But when he found out that Jake had died, he crushed him. Yeah. And he went back to the worker in the hospital.

38:17Oti: Traffic out what the fuck happened. We all knew what happened. He just wanted confirmation. He just wanted specifics maybe to go and tag all those people. But when he didn't get that and those cops are coming up to him, he was like, you know what? Fuck this shit. Yeah.

38:17KT: One of my favorite moments in this film is the the following scene that we have with Jake's mom and Fred.

38:37KT: And they have a very beautiful moment together. And, you know, at that point in the scene, I wasn't sure if she had known yet. So I thought the continuous ringing was going to be her being told and we're going to find and and see her react to the news. But, you know, she talks about being pestered by the police and how it continues to just keep ringing and Fred's there with her. And they have this really vulnerable

39:03KT: moment and it gets to a point where, you know, after she shares the the cute stories of him being in church and asking to excuse himself. You know, after they get through all of those light sort of moments, reality starts to seep in again. And she's like, can we please talk about anything else? And and Fred brings the levity saying that, you know, Deborah's sick of being pregnant. And the funny thing with me in particular

39:28KT: is when moments are really sad, but then you can see people are trying not to be sad. That's what gets me really upset. I think that was the second second time I got emotional in the film. The first one was when Jimmy died.

39:28Oti: Yeah. I think I was expecting the mother to go off at Fred, blame him somehow for Jimmy's involvement.

39:45Oti: Where was he? You know, the sort of Yeah. Typical things you'd expect from a grieving mother. But none of that. She knew Jimmy. Jimmy made his decisions. He was strong. He knew his son through and through. And he held no he was like, I don't want my son to be remembered by one action he did at the end. Yeah. I want my son to be remembered for who he really was. Full life. And it was so touching that when you've mentioned this, but when Fred gave the money and he's about to go to jail and said, you know what? Open this medical stuff. Yeah. And name it Jake Winters.

40:16Oti: Yeah. You know, that's that was very strong for me.

40:16KT: Oh, absolutely. There there's so much

40:22KT: emotionally to latch onto in this film and I think it it made it stick out even more that that Bill had no sense of reprieve. And it gave us no sense of reprieve because like you said, understandably so, Jake's mother could have just, you know, threw all of her anger at him, didn't because she understood the cause and she understood that Jake was dedicated to it. Yeah. Can we talk about I would say, if we if we can't choose Fred Hampton, who my favorite character of this film was, Oh. Judge, Judy, and executioner.

40:59Oti: She was badass, wasn't she? She was fucking great. My only issue with her was that she was so she knew something was off with Bill. Yeah. But somehow it all just got solved miracally by a lot of explanations.

41:12Oti: And I just didn't anyone that's suspicious, I just didn't think that it would be bought off like that or you know bought the idea like that. Especially for someone like Jimmy who was like, I don't fuck around, man. And you knew even when Judy had already put the gun away, Jimmy still had a feeling. Yeah. It was It still a hard feeling. Yeah. You could see. And anyway.

41:12KT: I I just loved her. She was super solid. Like you said, she was the first one to pick up on the suspiciousness

41:38KT: of Bill. It is a bit annoying how it kind of because when we got to that scene, was like, oh. But then I knew that there was going to be more to be happened in this film just by the title. So I knew he was going to get out of that scene. So it did kind of take the tension out of it. But I do like that we have very dutiful members of the Black Panther Party that also get a highlight as well. You know, we continue to see the loyalty

42:02KT: of the of the members by the contrast of, you know, Bill's self preservation. And that scene can be very notable. And this really comes to a crescendo in the shootout scene. Bill, Bill, Bill, literally, while he was escaping, he saw Judy and the other guy was struggling. Yeah? Fuck that shit. And then he just disappeared. Right? But you had Judy staying there until the bitter end. I'm

42:33KT: not smart enough, but I do feel like there is a poetic link between the speech that Fred said earlier in the film with Deborah about, you know, someone waking someone up to tell them that there is a fire and then the person gets angry at the person that told them as opposed to just dealing with the fire and escaping and that shootout scene where the police are the ones that started the fire.

42:33Oti: Yeah. They did. And it just paints the picture,

43:00Oti: know. We knew all those struggling with and even defeating them wasn't wasn't enough and they had to blow the place up. Yeah. Just because, man.

43:00KT: Let's talk a little bit about Roy. I got a bit wafty with his character. I feel like

43:16KT: sometimes when you have films that that cover black America and white America, there's usually that well-to-do white American that is trying to help albeit, you know, distorted sense of justice. And I feel like Roy kind of fit the bill in this film because while we started to watch the film, I made a note. I wonder how long it'll take for Roy to say something hateful and racist. But he never did. Never did. It's just like he was bad, but he wasn't that bad. But you're still bad because your inaction or your willful action

43:52KT: is getting in the way of real progress.

43:52Oti: It just seemed that he was pushed by his supervisors to go beyond what he wanted. I think his end goal was to just have Fred in prison and then got orders and he saw that change in him where the gloves had come off.

43:52KT: And I think that's exactly

44:09KT: when, you know, Hoover has Roy in a room and he starts asking about a kid. Whenever a character asks you about your kid, they're reminding you that you have something to lose. Mhmm. And that's exactly what you said. That was the switch in his character. Yep. For sure. Let's finish off with final thoughts. I really love and I don't usually love seeing kissing on screen because, you know, Oti can demonstrate to me what real kissing looks like. I don't have to see.

44:40KT: But I really love the kisses between Fred and Deborah because the it didn't feel like there was lust there. There was no obligation. It was just pure and beautiful and we love to see it. Uh-huh. Agreed. I do wanna say that if I didn't already know that Martin Sheen was playing Hoover, I wouldn't have known that. Uh-huh. The the prosthetics were good, but like you said, it was his voice. Yeah. My final thoughts, as I've said and as I will continue to say, Daniel Kaluuya is charismatically magnetic, a true standout in our generation.

45:15Oti: Of course, I knew you'd say that.

45:18KT: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, friends and lovers. Another caliente, another spicy, but very enjoyable, at least for us, dialogue we've had on the For Reference podcast. Today, we would like to finish off in a segment we call For Your Reference, Oti.

45:18Oti: I'm gonna reference. I think this is the second time. Malcolm X, Denzel does no wrong there.

45:18KT: And I'm going to reference Regina King's One Night in Miami.

45:18Oti: Nice.

45:45KT: If you would like to have one night with Oti on Twitter and Instagram, we're @ForYourRefPod. Write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com. We're also on Apple Podcasts if you like to leave a rating and a review. And we'll see you guys next week. See you. Bye.