BlackAF – Kenya hate what you love?

Full transcript of BlackAF – Kenya hate what you love?.

0:00KT: Greetings, friends and lovers. We're not usually the type to, you know, preempt the show with a warning because we're usually super nasty and you're used to us this way. If you follow us on the socials or in other places that you probably shouldn't be following us, I recently had my wisdom teeth removed or at least two of them. The other two is still on the run. So as Oti would say, this is a Sylvester warning because KT Sylvester McShane

0:29KT: might pop up in this episode. So there's your trigger warning, and let's get on to the show. Howdy, friends and lovers. Welcome back to For Your Reference. We got your host, KT.

0:29Oti: And Oti.

0:29KT: And get ready to pop lock at the mandatory hip hop class because we're so hip hop, girl. This week, we are covering hashtag BlackAF.

1:13KT: Mhmm. I think it's actually got a hashtag in its name.

1:13Oti: It does.

1:13KT: Even though Wikipedia seems to not be able to compute that. So it's just BlackAF Mhmm. On Wikipedia. But welcome welcome friends and lovers. Let's just quickly get into the stats. This recently came out just a month ago, really. Yeah. So in April 2020, it comes from the mind grapes of Kenya Barris and we definitely wanna talk a little bit about sir

1:38KT: Barris. Come and fight me queen. I don't know if he deserves knighthood. I guess we'll see. And then we also have Rashida it's it's essentially Rashida Jones, Kenya Barris, and then they have an ensemble Yep. Cast. A whole slew of actors if you're playing a For Your Reference drinking game. Not I, still waiting for those stitches to disappear. Where is up to you friends and lovers. But yeah, wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. We binged it over a weekend, the weekend that it came out. Right?

1:38Oti: We did.

2:08KT: Let's get into the part of the show where we talk about our first impressions. This can encapsulate quite a lot. BlackAF, obviously not a 100%, but it reminded me of Master of None where each episode had a particular theme Yeah. That was covered. So we're definitely going to explore a lot of the themes that were introduced into the show. But even in first impressions,

2:32KT: let's talk about Kenya Barris. Have you ever come across him before? I just recently found out that he was cocreator with Tyra Banks for America's Next Top Model. And then obviously, no, he has a whole suite of ishs. Black-ish, Mixed-ish.

2:45Oti: Grown-ish.

2:46KT: Good on you. Oti-ish, if you're lucky. Yeah. So let's let's get into first impressions. I guess if you wanna talk about, you know, any sort of impressions you have about Kenya Barris, any sort of flavoring, peppering, frame of referencing, Rashida Jones, and, I guess, the show in general. So

3:06Oti: initially, I thought Kenya Barris was a lady.

3:06KT: Okay.

3:06Oti: And this was during the American Top Model days.

3:06KT: Oh, so you actually knew his name?

3:06Oti: Yeah. It was posted everywhere. So, yeah, oh, Kenya Barris. Oh, that's a so probably a lady working with Tyra.

3:21KT: Wow. I I am sorry, people. When you hear Kenya Barris, who do you do you picture a man or a woman? Yeah. But I think you just you just imagine your great strong country as a whoreman. Yeah. And do you do you kind of take credit for Kenya Barris' success because his name is Kenya?

3:21Oti: Oh, it plays a huge part in his success.

3:21KT: So you're not going to say anything bad about him then?

3:21Oti: No. Not really.

3:21KT: So how does the how does the hierarchy work? Like, Obama's right at the top and then Kenya Barris?

3:49Oti: A whole lot of people named Kenya and then you know?

3:49KT: Okay. Alright. Alright. Good to know. Good to know. So so there's some way to work?

3:49Oti: There is. He can work his way up. Yeah. There is. There's definitely a long way to go for him to reach Obama's status.

4:01KT: Oh, totally. Mhmm. Oh, definitely. And shout out to Obama. You're not listening to us.

4:01Oti: But, yeah, I'll I came across his stuff then. I didn't really pay too much attention. And then when Black-ish came out, I started watching it, and I still watch it up till now.

4:01KT: Yeah. How how many seasons is it now?

4:01Oti: I think it's on the sixth season. It's not the greatest thing, but it is definitely watchable.

4:19Oti: And some of the sort of qualms that I had with I have with Black-ish sort of made their way into BlackAF. Okay. And I remember you're watching this, and I would tell you, oh, think I I've seen this in Black-ish already.

4:30Oti: And it just kind of set me aback because, mate, you're given a different platform. Just do something different. Yeah. But I guess for the people who don't really know Black-ish, this is a new audience, a new net like, it's Netflix. So it's quite understandable, and it's based off his life as he's said Many times.

4:30KT: Many, many times.

4:30Oti: But I think people are just unsatisfied with his answer.

4:51Oti: I I guess I guess not. There there there's a difference between not being clear in your answer and just not accepting what the answer is. Yeah. Because I think people expect slightly more. There are definitely things I love about in in BlackAF. Uh-huh. And to me, he's he's at least regardless of how he's sort of well, at least people are trying to portray him as a one trick pony. Uh-huh. He's doing something that he's sort of and and if it's based off his life, fair enough. Yep. You can't really criticize anyone when he says everything he's doing is based off his life because that's all he knows. Kudos. Fair enough. I'm not gonna

5:22Oti: just ask you for that. Yeah. So we've seen a lot of hate that he's getting towards that. Not really into that because, at least for me, he's one of the black creators out there doing stuff. Mhmm.

5:22KT: But I think there's also a distinction there because,

5:35KT: you know, we have our lovely Issa Rae at some red carpet, think it a Golden Globes saying she's just gonna root for everyone that's black. Right? Yeah. Which is super cute, which is a great sort of sentiment. But then there's also, you know, another component of, yes, we can we can say how we truly feel about it if we don't necessarily love it. But also at the same time, I guess, holding each other accountable

5:58KT: in a way.

5:58Oti: Yeah. Yeah. We can and and I feel like this is what I think we'd we'd get into this in one of when we cover the episode later. But he he speaks to this in BlackAF. Mhmm. He does cover this sort of issue where you you you get sort of two levels of or or at least you get a facade around any sort of black creation out there. And trying to break through that is not quite as simple or straightforward as you might like, and there's a lot of nuances around that. And and it's delicate. It's a delicate subject. And whatever it is that you put out to the world, just know there's, like, two layers to it. Because when you when when it meets, a I personally, as a black person, when I watch it, I would have my biases Yeah. And I accept that I'll have biases towards anything a black person does and creates.

5:58KT: But you also talk about black tax.

5:58Oti: Yeah. I give black tax to any sort of thing a black person creates because fuck's sakes, mate. You made it. Just by being able to make it, you have made it. Well, my first impression of this was like, oh, wow. Okay. The first few episodes, I I enjoyed. Uh-huh. Apartheid, I think it went a bit off, but it was good.

6:56Oti: It was sort of funny. Up until episode six of eight.

6:56KT: That's that's quite a good track record.

6:56Oti: I had I had a good laugh in there, and it sort of reminded me of what Modern Family, if it had a sort of diverse cast, would look like. Then Lily.

7:12KT: Jesus. Modern Family just finished. Right? Yeah. It did. I if you've listened to the podcast, I don't watch a lot of I don't I I try to keep my plate with the same sort of flavorings. I like to rewatch shows instead of branching out and having more quantity. But in saying that, I did watch Modern Family, I think at least two seasons, but essentially I dropped off and Oti continued to watch it for a lot longer than he needed to,

7:39KT: but you even dropped off somewhere. Right?

7:39Oti: Yeah. I dropped off season six.

7:39KT: So with my limited knowledge and a bit more of Oti's knowledge, we watched the last episode of Modern Family and literally nothing changed.

7:39Oti: Yeah. It

7:51Oti: it could have been anywhere throughout the timeline. Like, literally, like, aside from them getting older, just nothing happened. It just made me feel like Brooke and Ridge had way more character development in Bold and the Beautiful.

7:51KT: Oh, they did some have some characters development, mate.

7:51Oti: Yeah. Their character was developing on each other.

8:07KT: Not if you put Thor in there. Can I just say my mom had a heart attack when they changed the actor of Ridge?

8:07Oti: Oh.

8:07KT: But that is That was one of the biggest travesties in the world. When we start our own gossip channel, we call it spilling the Oti. But for now, let's get black up. Get oh, let's get back to BlackAF. Oh my. Well, I guess, let me go through my first impressions.

8:31KT: I actually I didn't know Kenya Barris cocreated America's Next Top Model unless I'm obsessed with something. I don't really watch interviews, read credits, and that sort of thing. So I didn't really know anything. I knew Black-ish was around. I think, like, if you would be watching it, I would be like I'll just, like, dip in and out, but I wouldn't really watch Black-ish. But I'm like, oh, yeah. Cool. It's there. And then I felt like I felt like out of nowhere, it sprouted those spin off shows.

8:55KT: Marsai Martin's quite big. Little was a quite a cute movie. Yeah. But I yeah. I I've never really been familiar with Kenya Barris' sort of filmography or any any sort of his work. I I remember recently, Waithe was on an Instagram live. It might have been for her Twenties finale, but she was on Instagram live for whatever reason.

9:15KT: And she was talking about Kenya Barris saying the first time that Kenya told Lena Waithe that he was going to be acting in the lead of this show, she was confused because she knows Kenya Barris and she couldn't see him in that that sort of role. So I thought that was quite interesting. But, yeah, I really didn't know anything about Kenya Barris. So I know a lot of the disgruntlement.

9:36KT: Now I like qualms. Let's go back to qualms. A lot of the qualms that people have is it's recycling. Like, it's the same people have seen the same sort of characters, the same sort of storylines, you know, the same sort of family models and that sort of thing being copied and pasted. Right? Black-ish, BlackAF. Even Kenya Barris has, you know, admits that note as well. If we do get time later on in the episode, I do want to explore

10:01KT: the whole concept of people doing the same shit over and over and when it's okay and when it's not okay. But let's just leave that to the side because we obviously have a lot to go through. Just talking about BlackAF in general, I fucking loved it. I also love Insecure, but I go and listen to our Christmas episode if you wanna know what I rated Insecure. But I feel like recently,

10:24KT: not just like black shows, but just shows in general, not even just people of color, like just shows in general are very self aware. Sometimes it can it can swing to the pendulum of being super PC and super preachy, and it it just becomes too woke for you, man. And sometimes it can also swing to the other side of the pendulum or some people might argue is the same side of the pendulum where it's disingenuous.

10:49KT: Yeah. Right? And by not wanting to offend anyone, you're not necessarily saying anything or you're not really contributing anything that's new in that sort of dialogue. Right? And, you know, in in this sort of time, in these shows that we have, we have a very conscious sort of penmanship in regards to these shows. Sometimes, like I said, sometimes it is grating in its heavy handed sort of messaging. Yeah. But I don't feel like BlackAF was that show.

11:21KT: I feel like BlackAF, if you allow it to, not to say you haven't, but if you allow BlackAF into your heart cockles, it it can really resonate in many ways.

11:32Oti: I guess. And I think some of it, I really took his tongue in cheek as well. Oh, yes. So because it's not I didn't take it as Kenya Barris trying to portray the whole black community as this because that's not what he was trying to do, at least from my perspective. Yes. The name is called BlackAF. I didn't take it literally as black people will be like this or black people are like this. Yeah. So

11:55Oti: in many ways, I think most of the qualms, once you remove that sort of veneer away from it, then you could truly start to understand what he's trying to do and enjoy it for what it is.

11:55KT: I also think it's a it's an interesting story because it's not it's not just that Kenya Barris is black. It's also that he's creative. It's also that he's super super mega successful.

12:17KT: Mhmm. Like, we're not talking about someone that, like, contributes to the bake sale. Like, these characters are fucking rich. Right? Yep. And they they will squander it or they will thrive in it however they want to, ergo that painting. Yeah. Yeah. Right? But, like, it's it's not supposed to be that sort of family sitcom. Right? This is a sample size of an exaggerated sort of version of Kenya Barris' life. Yeah. A successful creator. Mhmm. Right? Whether you indulge, whether you enjoy is a whole another question. But this is a, you know, a little micro

12:54KT: aspect into his world.

12:54Oti: Yeah. It's not about Oti from the block. You know? It's

12:54KT: Oh my.

12:54Oti: So it it's completely you will not be able to a lot of the things you won't be able to I don't wanna say resonate because that's too strong of a word because you can resonate with a lot of things in this.

12:54KT: Are you telling me words mean things? Wow.

13:15Oti: Just like I don't know why people are taking so big on offense on this, and I feel like we just need to start delving into the episodes, and then we can start truly understanding and exploring the thematic sort of meanings into the episodes.

13:15KT: Yeah. So let's dive into

13:29KT: the episodes. Before we do that, I do just wanna say one thing. Shout outs to T.I. You don't need any sort of ad time in our podcast, but his podcast ExpediTIously, he recently did a interview with Kenya Barris. And like I said, because I don't know much about him outside of BlackAF and that interview was everything that he was saying in that podcast interview wasn't anything new, which I would say is a compliment. I really really like Kenya Barris' approach. He is very transparent. He is very forthcoming.

14:03KT: He's very clear in the messaging and the experiences that he wants to share. Mhmm. I felt like that was interwoven perfectly throughout BlackAF. Yeah. Agreed. So I guess, you know, maybe that's a qualm that you have. Maybe it's not nuanced enough for you, but I just like that he calls a square a square. Yeah. He's got that quality. Yeah. And and and I guess that's contributing to his success as well. But let's start off with the first episode. There's obviously a lot of setup that needs to happen

14:31KT: in regards to this world. I I think it might also be interesting just as we continue this discussion, Oti, is if you felt like you've watched this already. Because I think Juneteenth was also celebrated in Black-ish as well. So feel free to pepper that in. Yeah. You know, add that to the seasonings or For Your Reference discussion. So the way that we have this documentary mockumentary sort of style being set up is Drea going to film school, and Kenya's so extra that he gets this amazing

15:01KT: pretty much TV crew Yeah. For her to film all of this. And we see so many sort of instances. I think, you know, a lot of the scenes that really rung true to me was just watching Kenya, like, even at the start where they had the car Mhmm. And he was flexing, and there are quite a lot of themes that are introduced in the first episode. Yeah. And and and it was quite interesting because you'd see him rolling up with his car, sporty car and whatever. I can't even remember the make. But you could tell with the interaction with the white person that, you know, how people deal with money differently.

15:01Oti: Oh, yes.

15:01KT: And I think they did that quite well. Yeah.

15:01Oti: Oh, yeah. Agreed. Agreed. Like, there's there's been a slew

15:35Oti: of of black men who became wealthy for a second and lost it all. Okay. Yeah. They just didn't know how to handle money. Yeah. And I think that's one of the things. Once we start accepting that that's a reality and that's a fact of life,

15:50Oti: then we can start progressing. And I think one of the things that he said in an interview was that this is the sort of generation where people with money starting to come in, and no there's no handbook for that. Because previously, regardless of whether you like it or not, there was a lot of oppression. Mhmm. So this is all sort of new territory.

15:50KT: Because of slavery.

15:50Oti: Because of slavery. Yeah. It's all new territory. Whether you like it or fucking not, that's the base fact. Mhmm. So it's uncharted territory, and people once you you live your life without anything and you're living on scraps, and once you get that taste of paper,

16:21Oti: then it gets to it's easy for it to get to your head. Yeah.

16:21KT: But I think also at the same time, like, I'm sure white people buy superfluous things. They are like, I don't know, sex dungeons, yachts. Like, what the fuck do rich white people get?

16:21Oti: Agreed. It's it's one of those sort of interesting things because you get people like MC Hammer who was so big in the early nineties.

16:40Oti: And then a few fucking months later or a year later, then you hear he's fucking bankrupt, and you're like, what? Yeah. How does this how does this even come to be? Yeah. Because you you think of all of the dollar signs, all of the touring.

16:52KT: Yeah. I'm sure there was sort of merchandise for those pants.

16:52Oti: Exactly.

16:52KT: What a time, friend and lovers.

16:52Oti: Exactly.

16:52KT: As as a delicious couple that don't have kids, it's fun and it's refreshing hearing Kenya or just the character on TV say how exhausting their kids are. Because I'm sure all of the lovely posts that you have of your kids on social media is true, but I'm sure they're fucking assholes as well. Yep. So I just I I I I lived and died every time Kenya said something about his kids, especially the two sons. Oh, yeah.

17:31KT: There were quite some lovely moments there. The second episode kind of focuses more on, I guess, popping Molly at a festival, really. So we have Kenya and also Rashida's character, Joya, going to a music festival and also seeing Chloe there as well. So Chloe is the oldest of the children. She also wanted to go to film school, but then she changed to do marketing Yep. I believe. So, you know, she's still trying to figure out where

17:31Oti: Oh, with a with a dyed up pink purple hair?

17:31KT: Yes. With the boyfriend. Mhmm. So it's it's interesting

18:05KT: to see that. And I definitely wanna talk more about Chloe as a character. But there there's a notion of should they even be at the festival? Yeah. So you have Joya fully dancing. All of the mandatory hip hop classes are paying off. And she's doing all of the dance moves right at the front of the festival.

18:05Oti: Oh, for sure. And I guess one of the sort of

18:26Oti: themes introduced in this as well is that the sort of duality in terms of how black, especially girls, young girls are perceived when they do stuff on social media as to what

18:26KT: Like the oversexualization.

18:26Oti: Yeah. Yeah. Like, they're expected to be grown ups or they're seen as grown ups when, essentially, they're just kids.

18:48Oti: Yeah. Yeah. So I think those are like, they they he tried to cover a lot of sort of important things. And and for all his sort of for all the qualms you can have with him, at least he's trying to get these sort of messages out and that you could always give kudos to him.

19:03KT: Yeah. And I think it was done really well. I I really appreciated how they set up the show. It was like a mockumentary sort of style. Kenya Barris, you kind of get a sense of what his character's going to be throughout the show. And, you know, it's it's used very well because the messaging that they use through the show is either through Kenya's exasperated sort of soliloquies or it's through voice overs from Drea with the documentary.

19:31KT: And it's it's definitely important to choose the vehicle of your messaging, especially if it's going to be something so heavy as slavery Yeah. Or the sexualization of underage black girls. Yeah. And it definitely needs to be done in a way that makes sense, that isn't out of place. And I really appreciated the structure of this show. And we see Chloe and there's that moment with Chloe and Kenya trying to figure out which one of them is high.

19:56KT: And it it was an interesting it was interesting. It must fucking be hard to be a parent, man.

19:56Oti: Yeah. For sure.

19:56KT: And Kenya has six kids in real life? Wow. That's a chore. That's a lot of kids to ignore. Yeah. But the yeah. Definitely. There are a lot of themes that get explored through this show and I really appreciate the format in which it comes in.

19:56Oti: Yeah. Me me too.

19:56KT: Alright. Let's speed on over to episode three. So the two main themes well, I guess if you wanna have

20:24KT: Juneteenth as well. The three main themes in this episode are Juneteenth, talking about the dance video with the daughter Izzy, and then also the hygiene between the sons. The Menace II Society reference. Nice. Yep. And we love a reference. We do love a good reference. Take another shot, friends and lovers. Do you know much about Juneteenth?

20:45Oti: No. I think the first time I heard about Juneteenth was in Black-ish.

20:49KT: So Well, apparently, Kenya Barris is the only person that celebrates it.

20:54Oti: Well, and I guess I don't know. I think I think the sort of target would be different from, let's say, Black-ish being on ABC

21:04KT: Uh-huh.

21:04Oti: Network, and then with Netflix, it's streaming slightly a younger audience.

21:04KT: Yeah. You can loosen the brass straps on Netflix. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Again, I haven't watched Black-ish. So it was all quite new to me. Let's talk about Izzy, who's the third daughter. I don't really know where they fit in regards to ages and I'm pretty sure Kenya doesn't know either. So I'm safe.

21:25KT: But Izzy's character I felt was like not necessarily a plot device, but she was kind of whatever she needed to be. She didn't really have a character. She was first introduced as really tough and all everyone including Kenya being afraid of her. But then, not to say you can't, but then she was dressed up really girly as well. Yeah. So it's I'm not saying you can't be tough and girly, but like there are archetypes and she kind of fulfilled a few of them. So it was kind of confusing. But anyway, so she is found

21:55KT: hooching it up. Can we say hooching it up? Or we can't say that if they're underage. Is I feel like a hooch is more of like a sophisticated, mature sort of booty shaker. Yeah. Hooching you up. You don't need to look at me so intensely, Hoochie. We will get to the Hoochie festivities after this episode. But I'm telling you, and I said it in our in between this episode, you could not pay me enough to be a teenager again. Fucking hell. Do you imagine being like a teenager

22:24KT: or like a young adult? I think we're still young. No. We're not young adults. You won't see us in the young adult section of your bookstores if they still exist. But, yeah, like social media is is essentially an integral component to your personality if you are a youth these days. Yeah. It's insane.

22:46Oti: Far on. I will not be able to live in this era as a kid as as as a teenager.

22:50KT: Yeah. So hold on to your San Junipero Nerras. It's a Black Mirror reference, Friends and Lovers, another Netflix show. Yeah. But I guess there was there's a lot of complexity around the sexualization of black girls, which we also talked about in the second episode.

23:08KT: And there's there's so much in there. And I I really like the way that they did it. And it kind of brought Izzy a bit closer to Joya as well. Yeah. And we start to and that's where she actually shared that, you know, she was asked by her best friend who was a boy that she shouldn't be coming to the sleepovers anymore. And I obviously, you know, I'm brown and at some point I was religious. So, you know, I was I was I was locked away from the opposite sex.

23:35KT: So I didn't have well, if you wanna be real, I didn't really have any friends. But if I did if I did have friends that I didn't imagine, they were female. So I don't really know what it's like to have had young friends and go through that transitionary sort of, hey. You've got boobs now. Like, does it become weird?

23:55Oti: And I guess it became weird for her because the kid was like, you should put a bra on now, I think, and that made the whole situation sort of different. And that's why she was like, yeah. I'm not gonna be going to any more sleepovers, which is fair enough. So it's sort of, I don't know, in my day, we never really talked about these things, so I didn't have boobs. Didn't talk. You just looked. Yes. And then you wank you wanked in shame.

24:22KT: Solving crimes here, mate. That's a Key & Peele reference. But again, adolescence is is well within our rearview of life. And the last sort of component that we have in the third episode is addressing the hygiene.

24:40Oti: Now this is the Menace II Society reference. Yes. It is.

24:43KT: And I I really liked it. I I really liked it because boys are gross. Most adult males are gross. I don't know if you were one of them or if you had family members or friends. Just funky. Just stanky ass kids that don't wash their ass.

25:00Oti: Well, in quarantine now, you have a reason. Just wash your hands. Everything else,

25:04KT: yikes.

25:06Oti: Leave it to the gods.

25:08KT: The gods are out of order. They're going out to get lunch. They're they're not available at the moment. But it was fun it was fun seeing them. They kind of didn't really have much dimension to them.

25:22Oti: Yeah. They didn't. Like, it was just there to sort of comedic relief, if that funny, I did appreciate the scenes where it was the kids' adventures or whatnot. It was more the interactions between Kenya and Joya Mhmm. And Drea to most to most part that were really captivating in in the show.

25:43KT: Yeah. I don't know. I I enjoyed their little hijinks even though it didn't really they were kinda filler. Like, was no canon about them. No. No. Let's move on to episode four. So the the big sort of component in episode four is about being a father. Not just being a father, but being a black present father. Mhmm. And how they don't get any praise. There's a lot of praise for black mothers, but not necessarily black fathers. Yeah.

26:15Oti: Yeah. Fair enough. Like, I don't know. In Kenya, there's not really much sort of ceremonial praise for father day Father's Day, or at least growing up, you'd have Father's Day and everyone would be like, Yeah. Then Mother's Day, it'll all be this sort of fun fair and sort of everyone would go out of their way to make their mothers feel special, which they should. Yeah. And and

26:39Oti: not not not that much about Father's Day. I think the only time I used to give my dad a present was during his birthday. Yeah. But even then drops off after a while. Right? Yeah. Sadly so. Yeah.

26:52KT: But I think of well, not I think. Obviously, there's a historical context about African American fathers. Right? And that's that's more concisely what's being addressed in BlackAF. Yeah.

27:04Oti: Yeah. Agreed. Like, there's this sort of stereotypical view of how African American fathers are. I we are not that. We can't speak to that. Mhmm. And, of course, as with stereotypes, it's just horseshit. I'm I'm just coming from it as an angle of I can see a point where in my culture, we never really did sort of celebrate our fathers in that way. Uh-huh. And it's just become a more sort of recent thing that we are consciously now trying to do more for our fathers than it was back then.

27:39Oti: True. And what about you? I think it would pretty much be the same thing with you as well.

27:39KT: Yes. Thank you for speaking on behalf of me.

27:39Oti: You're welcome.

27:39KT: I appreciate it.

27:39Oti: I'm welcome. Otherwise, you won't be able to say it.

27:51KT: Let's let's just leave that to the imagination. This episode also centers on him taking on the role of the coach. This was not some sort of inspirational biopic of him being the coach and they all win the cup and go home. He was terrible at it and we knew preemptively he was going to be terrible at it.

28:15Oti: Yes. But imagine your father coaching your sports team growing up.

28:15KT: True. If I did sports.

28:22KT: Let's move on to the fifth episode, which I think we're going to have a lot to talk about. The the big sort of crux in episode five was after watching a particular black film, Kenya seeks out honest feedback. How honest can it be? And I'm pretty sure this is where we get the call with a lot of well beloved directors, creatives,

28:48KT: writers in the industry. Yeah. Right? So there's quite a lot of components. We also have Tyler Perry. Mhmm. Tyler Perry. Mhmm. In here as well. So there's quite a lot to cover in episode five. Right? So let's pick it apart just generally. So we have, it is not lost on me that Kenya, the one that has qualms and is criticizing a particular film, also has the same sort of feedback given to him. It's not lost on me. I do understand the meta sort of sphere that we're operating in.

29:19KT: But it was very interesting to see because there's a lot of conversation about again, I I go back to my lady love Issa Rae is is it we're supporting everything because it's created by black people or are we supporting it to the point where we're offering notes, we're offering feedback so that we can all rise together?

29:37KT: Right? Because it it there's differences. It's I'm accepting you as you are or, hey, let's work on it together. Let's get better together.

29:37Oti: But why should they be mutually exclusive? I can I can support you just because, like, hey? But we could also make notes and be better.

29:37KT: But then everyone gets a golden star.

29:37Oti: No. You don't get a golden star. We now work on improving on what you've created or your creative process.

29:57Oti: We accept you. We accept the effort. Uh-huh. We acknowledge it. Uh-huh. We appreciate it. We pat its head and shake its hands.

29:57KT: Sounds a bit patronizing, but that's okay. That's the Oti way.

29:57Oti: And then we now start a a process outside of peering eyes and just within the community

30:16Oti: on how we can improve it.

30:16KT: But I guess that's also the thing as well. Like, black cinema, and I guess just in general, non straight white hetero stories are new to the industry. So if we want to continue, if we want to nurture these stories, does that mean we, like you say, give it a black tax, give it a woman tax, give it a person of color tax because it managed to create itself into fruition?

30:44KT: Do we do do we do we praise it for the fact that it's been created? And when we get to a point where, you know, where where we are seeing more I used to love the word diversity. But when we get to a point of more diversity and more stories being told because they're interesting, not just because we think people will understand them from the jump. Right? Where do where do we lie in that sort of pendulum? Because if you if I guess if you're just watching a random movie and you call it trash,

31:13KT: then that's fine. That's not really going to affect anything. But if black cinema is still trying to get to the point where, you know, it's not even like we've got one nominee, we don't need like that you know, like even with Parasite, like we've met our quota. Like, good luck seeing any sort of foreign film win best picture again. You know what I mean? Like like, where where where do we stand? Do we do we do we give feedback and do we grow, or do we only let quality in?

31:39Oti: Like, I get it. I understand the sort of nuances that it's very delicate. And I think with I remember growing up you know, it wasn't even that long ago. We were bemoaning, and we were crying. There are not enough black directors, people of color. You know? There are not enough directors, producers that are doing this shit. And then now when you're getting them, you're, like, chastising them because their work isn't up to standard to whatever you think

32:06Oti: quality or perfection is.

32:06KT: Just hang on, Oti. I'm calling my best friend Bezos. I'm ordering a big mirror ASAP for you.

32:15Oti: No. But seriously, how are you expected to grow and improve if you're not checking out these things on a regular? You can only you can only improve and grow from your failures

32:15KT: True.

32:15Oti: Or your perceived failures.

32:15KT: True.

32:15Oti: So if if you're not trying and you're not get putting yourself out there, you can never be better. And at least now we're getting directors. We're getting fucking black directors doing this shit out here.

32:37Oti: And the fuck How can they get there if they're not being rated as high if they're getting bad reviews? I guess that's the thing. You need you need to start from somewhere. And once some that person opens the door, then at least you know it's not outside the realms of possibility.

32:50Oti: For a for a young person out there thinking, hey. If if this person made this movie, might have not been a critical success, but he they put their bloody guts out to do it, then who am I not to also pursue this sort of avenue? Growing up, I watched a lot of black cinema, you wanna call it that. And I gravitated so much towards this sort of culture environment where a lot of the sort of stuff I was watching was this,

33:16Oti: Mhmm. And and to me, it felt as if I was supporting I was supporting the cause. Yeah. Because it felt it felt more personal to me, and it felt nice knowing that this came from someone who fucking looks like me. Mhmm. So, yeah, I I just it's just a bias within me that would want them to succeed regardless.

33:35Oti: Yeah. So if you're putting your there and it's not to the quality, hey, mate. Good. Of course, they'll know it's not fucking good. And and and Then what the words mean? But there's a way of saying it without putting them down. Oh, yeah. Saying it, and there's a way of criticizing it that you could actually give them feedback that they can improve on rather than just chastising them or at least the way Kenya Kenya Barris came to the guy. That was completely off. That was just wrong.

34:00KT: Oh, at the panel?

34:00Oti: At the panel. That that was just completely

34:04KT: funny though because Lena Waithe was like, yeah. I'm gonna support you. And then when she saw the crowd,

34:08KT: you got to see

34:08Oti: You cannot. In your Red Bull mind, you cannot sit there preach yourself.

34:08KT: There's a difference between,

34:13KT: you know, setting someone aside and giving them a quiet word and vocally announcing at the panel q and a That it was trash. Yeah. I think he used the word pedestrian. Yeah. He said pedestrian. Because that is a word that is very intentional. It's not a word that you just trip over. It's a very pointed word.

34:33Oti: Yeah. That was definitely not a way that I would go about

34:37Oti: doing it at all.

34:37KT: And, you know, it's interesting. You know, even with Lena Waithe in her most recent series, Twenties, she talks about this, and there is that meta sort of sphere as well where you have Hattie's character, you know, like pretty much just bagging on is it Coco's Butter? The show that she eventually spoiler, I guess, that she eventually gets to work on. And the creator of the show says,

35:02KT: you need to learn not to shit on people. I'm paraphrasing. Yeah. Right? Because it's a small community and we need to get through shit together. Yeah. Right? And then she pointed to a tweet that Hattie had tweeted like years ago saying that the show was garbage. Right? And now she's like trying to get a job at this show. So it's interesting. It's it's interesting. And I think a very good example of this is I fucking love Lena Waithe. Her Thanksgiving episode on Master of None, chef kisses to none.

35:30KT: It was great. It was touching. It was amazing. I fucking Lena Waithe's energy in all of my places. Right? I fucking love it. But sometimes well, Queen & Slim. Right? You can go and listen to that episode. Like, you can still love support someone, but not necessarily be in love with what they might have created. Right? Not necessarily their whole filmography, but I I think it's fine to have that. Yeah. But again, how does the industry grow if you're knocking down, you know, creations just because you don't like them?

36:05Oti: Create your own niche like Tyler Perry and just go for it. Do your own

36:05KT: about Tyler Perry because I know,

36:12KT: you know, I guess if you wanna call it a bandwagon, we we have been privy to the old Tyler Perry joke on the For Your Reference podcast. Mhmm. And I think even just watching this show, it really shed a lot of light and a newfound sort of respect for Tyler Perry. Yeah. Because he's he's doing

36:29Oti: it unashamedly, and he he he's holding no handouts. Yeah. He's he's he knows his audience. Mhmm. He knows what he's

36:39Oti: going what they like and what they don't like, and he knows what mainstream likes, and he's not targeting that. And he's he's fine. Yeah. I'm content. I will build my empire on this. Yeah. And fair enough and kudos and props to empire in every sense of the word, I think. Yeah. Yeah. And and you cannot fault him because we we've watched a lot of Tyler Perry stuff, and it's not been the best, but you can understand

37:03Oti: why people would like that. And I mean, I feel like remember when they're joking about they're trying Kenya was trying to tell them I don't think it was in this episode, but they were in the barbecue with the with with some of the family Yeah. With their family. I think it was the same episode. Yeah. And they're talking about asking them if they've watched Green Book. Yeah. And they're like, oh, about Mahershala Ali was in it. I was like, oh, no. We've not really watched it. And how they watched Juwanna Mann? Yeah. That Juwanna Mann.

37:27Oti: Yeah. So the rewatchability of Juwanna Mann and and something that you're like Green Book. You know? Critics will tell you Green Book is a better movie, but I enjoyed the hell out of Juwanna Mann more than I did Green Book. Because Green Book, we had qualms and recorded an episode that we never even released. Yeah. The pod god said it was too muy caliente, and it deleted it from our pod archives.

37:48KT: But that's that's really interesting because there are different levels of viewership. Right? And I think we have this with Joya when she I think they're outside of Roscoe's Chicken and Waffles. I think it is. It was after the after they had watched the film. And Joya is like, I don't have a stick up my ass like you guys. I just enjoy watching it. Yeah. Right? And you can have like, you can literally just watch something just to watch something or you can watch it with a critical lens.

38:17KT: And I guess that's the difference. Right? And that's where Kenya was coming from because he there there was a lot there were a lot of epiphanies he was having in this episode. You know? He thought it was straight out garbage. Right? But then when he started talking to his family, he's like, if if if my if if people that I love love this, then who am I to say it's garbage? Yeah. Right? And then he wrongfully rode the wave, went on the panel, and called it pedestrian. Right?

38:45KT: But that that that's an interesting because it's not just is it good? Is it bad? There are so many layers to this conversation. And, like, does a standard white story, hetero sort of story, does that get the same sort of, like, scrutiny? Right? Like, or is it just like, it was fine. Ryan Reynolds was in it again. Fine. I'm gonna fight with Ryan Reynolds. Choose a fucking lane. Ugly people need some solace. Don't take comedy away from them. Right? But it's a very interesting

39:19KT: conversation that is explored and it's obviously very relevant to our podcast because it talks about media, it talks about movies, and whether or not something is good or not. And, you know, you talked about quarantine and we still are in this age. If you are somewhere in the future and you're listening to this episode, I guess just just spare a thought for us in the past and what we're dealing with right now. But

39:41KT: something that I've really come to discover is, you know, I used to really be, like, dismissive of this is garbage or, you know, this doesn't this isn't substantial enough. But sometimes you want shit that isn't fucking deep. Yeah. Like, sometimes you just wanna watch Rush Hour. Yep. Sometimes it's good just to have light hearted, heartwarming. Give me a tear if you like. Give me juices in other places if you're nasty. Yeah.

39:41Oti: Give me Juwanna Mann.

39:41KT: Oh my. Are you hinting what our next episode is, Oti?

39:41Oti: Yes. I am.

40:15KT: But it's an interesting conversation and it's a conversation that will continue to be had. And what I fucking love about Tyler Perry is, you know, he's not striving for the creme de la creme, which is an Oscar. Right? Maybe maybe the Oscars will get to a point where it's not so institutionalized skewed in a particular sort of vanilla, if you will, sort of frame of reference. But until then,

40:43KT: people will continue to applaud wherever they see fit. Right? But Tyler Perry is like, screw you guys. I'm building a studio. I'm creating my own content, and I'm gonna fucking hire out my studios

40:54Oti: Yeah.

40:54KT: To create your Oscar bait movie baits.

40:54Oti: So, yeah, kudos to him. Like, he he's off. He's doing his own thing, man. Yeah. And this episode just sort of revalidated how he how important he is to the culture.

41:08KT: Yeah. And I know I I know there are discussions and, you know, there are arguments to say that, you know, Tyler Perry can be dangerous because if people didn't know any better, if people didn't try to know any better, that they will just assume that this is what people are like. Right? And I feel like we need to move away from that shit.

41:27KT: Like, just generally, like, if you're worried about what people are gonna think because they watch a show, like, why isn't the onus and responsibility on the viewer? On the viewer. Yeah. Right? It's just like, you know, the parents calling the FCC on Family Guy and it's like, why are you letting your five year old watch Family Guy? Yeah. Or South Park. There's gonna be dick jokes in there. Right? Yep. Danger Zone. That's another animated adult show. But you you know what I mean? Like, it's I feel like in we

41:59KT: are at a point where we want to consume and we want to we want to understand stories that are not necessarily our own. You know? And sometimes it's important to give some sort of exposition. And sometimes there are some references or sometimes there are some, you know, stereotypes that people can lean on or the viewer can lean on and not necessarily know otherwise. Yeah. But why is that why is the onus on people? Like, people that aren't the viewers. That's what I'm not understanding.

42:30Oti: Agreed. Like, it's a balancing act for sure. And whatever it is you're pulling out, regardless of how much you want the onus to be on the viewer, the creators still have a responsibility to sort of sort of message you're trying to send out. Like, we just covered The Hunt recently, and we saw the director sort of backtrack to what he was trying to do. I'm like, fucking hell, mate. Own your shit. Yeah. You know what you've put up? Own it.

42:54Oti: So it's a it's it's it's it's a fine balance where there's definite responsibilities on both. And if it's not in your flavor, mate, just don't watch it. And that's all I can say on that, really. I

43:08KT: I just wanna cover a character before we just close off the series. Let's talk about Broadway. So this is this is really interesting because, you know, Kenya Barris in his narration talks about, you know, there are a lot of famous people that have their homeboys, you know, like people that they've grown up with since forever. And no one really knows how they're contributing or whether, you know, whether they're helping or they have any job or any sort of duties but they're always around. Yeah. Yeah.

43:39Oti: I can understand that. You need people from who who knew you before. Yeah. And those are usually people you can trust, and fair enough. We've seen a lot of famous people and a lot of people who made it who are not so famous who still have their boys from the days where they were younger, and that's all you can rely on. That's your support right there. Yeah. So it's understandable.

44:01KT: And there was a there was a dark sort of joke that possibly he killed someone for Kenya. Yeah. Adele do shit anything for you as well. Yeah. And how somehow Broadway has never seen his kid. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Just just interesting. But let's let's close off the series. The next episode also touches on Rashida's character, Joya, trying to get back into her career. And I think this is quite an interesting sort of theme as well because the way it's set up in the show is Joya was the breadwinner for a long time. Yep. Substantially.

44:38KT: And that was because Kenya was trying to get his writing career off the ground. Yeah. But then there's a shift and Kenya Barris becomes very, very successful and is overwhelmingly bringing in a lot of money. Yeah. Right? And then there's the added layer of Joya having complications in pregnancy where she almost died. Right? And there's quite it seems as though there was a shift and it was never really addressed.

45:07Oti: Yeah.

45:08KT: And I I think it's quite interesting the way that they explored it in the show because, you know, I love Oti. We've been around since the dinosaurs. And I think sometimes in your life when things get so fucking busy, you forget that your relationship with someone is ever growing. Right? You can't just let your relationship

45:32KT: set on autopilot for five years and be like, yeah, I'll check on you in five years time. Like relationships don't work like that. The way people feel, the way people think, you know, even with your own like sense of self, you probably argue within yourself. So you need to constantly recalibrate with your partner. Yep. And it seems like there was a discombobulation somewhere Oh, for sure. Between them two. I don't know how pointed they they decided for this, but Kenya seemed very sharp.

46:01KT: He didn't seem to want to understand what Joya was going through emotionally. He thought it was just her was just her not knowing the and yeah. Yeah. It was just he was bringing in more money and that's such a simple sort of fact to that. But it's no. Emotionally, she was such a strong, independent, powerful woman. And she always wanted to go back to that. Exactly. Yeah. And he he thought that she was just happy to lap it up. Yeah. Which is fair enough because,

46:24Oti: like, when I came here, I had shit all. You know? And it was hard. And, you know, the struggle is quite real until you sort of start getting the money and starting to contribute really into the relationship financially then, you know, it's it's sort of

46:42Oti: it's not really just an ego thing.

46:42KT: No. It's it's it's a sense of power. Yeah. Whether it's whether it's literal power or whether it's perceived power. Yeah. But, like, financial sort of burdens is a real thing. Yeah.

46:55Oti: Because that you're earning more or I'm earning more, it doesn't really matter. We both want to be in a position where we both feel that we're bringing something of value financially to the table. So that's Yeah.

46:55KT: Well well, you say that.

46:55Oti: Or at least feel some sort of independence.

47:10KT: Oh, yeah. And I I I definitely, like, resonate with that. And I think very early on in the podcast sort of episodes I mentioned this, but, like, I had a problem with you buying me stuff when we first started dating. Like, to to the point where I would actually get frustrated that you would even think that I would want something. You know what I mean? And it's just not my love language, guys. No. But really, it's and this is some real life shit. Right? And

47:36KT: I guess it's just understanding each other and, you know, not understanding by me not wanting or accepting your gift that that was hurtful as well. Like, that's that recalibration that I was talking about. You know what I mean? And it seemed like they had gone so far, they had achieved so much, but, you know, it's that constant sort of check-in that you need to have with your partner. Oh, yeah. And then that that kind of turned into a cutesy reuniting in Fiji.

48:00Oti: Or so we thought. No. It it turned out quite nice at the end. Well, at the end, but the reasons of going there were sort of Oh, yes. Not the best. But it was it was sort of I don't know. Something Kenya something with Kenya just loves talking about separation. And I feel like it was really sort of heavy handed in Black-ish because it hit me out of nowhere. Like, Black-ish is your sort of escapist sort of show. Where you go? It's like a family dinner. Yeah. Like, you just sit around.

48:28Oti: I'm off work, come in, put Black-ish, I just wanna sit and just, yeah, tee it off, and it's you get your laughs out of the way. Uh-huh. Done.

48:37Oti: Then he brings this sort of heavy topic. I'm like, woah. And at first, you're like, am I watching the correct thing? You're just checking the info button and saying, oh, yes. This is Black-ish. What is going on? Yeah. And same with this. I was like, oh, the episodes after the sixth one started getting really heavy. Yeah. And that's where I think he lost me a bit. Uh-huh. And I was like, oh, this is not really the show that we started with. Yes. It's important to talk about this stuff, but it

49:05Oti: felt really dark. Too dark in my opinion. Yes.

49:08KT: Like, he wanted to put it in there, but it wasn't as it wasn't as perfectly stitched Yeah. As the other sort of themes. Yeah. It just and it it reminded me of Master of None as well because you would have episodes that had very distinctive themes, and then they just decide to focus on narrative.

49:26Oti: Yeah. But again, you said it came up in Black-ish, so I guess it was important for him to include in there. Yeah. I guess it seems like it's it's an important sort of topic for him and he wants to put it out there, which is fair enough. Yeah.

49:38KT: Well, thank you friends and lovers. Thank you for joining us on this expedition to Kenya. Barris,

49:45KT: that is.

49:45Oti: Yeah. And, you know, I'm the only Kenya to your Barris.

49:45KT: I warned you not to say that.

49:45Oti: I felt you deserve a cameo.

49:56KT: Oti Oti said that while we were preparing for this episode. And I said, it's good you didn't say that on the podcast because I won't react to it. And he did it anyway. And also the biggest smile on your face. We are not we're not calibrating right now. So disconnect forever. But thank you so much for joining us another week in the For Your Reference household. Hopefully, you've enjoyed it. There was a lot of huffing and puffing all around. But, yeah, you know what? It was a great it was a great eight episodes.

50:28Oti: Yeah. It was. I enjoyed it. I I found it funny. I didn't take it too seriously. Tongue in cheek most of it. Enjoyed it. Yeah.

50:28KT: And, you know, frame of reference obviously plays

50:38KT: a big role into your perceived or your actual enjoyment. Yeah. But we fucking loved it.

50:38Oti: Yeah. Me too.

50:38KT: Really, really enjoyed it. Will I watch Black-ish? No. But I really enjoyed BlackAF. Let's finish off in a segment we call For Your Reference. Oh.

50:57Oti: Kazu, no surprise to you, watch Black-ish. Has Anthony Anderson, Tracee Ellis Ross, need us anymore. It's fucking it's it's alright. It's it's watchable. Go on. Do that.

51:10KT: Before I get to my references, I forgot to just mention how they were having the super super creatives call and how Ava DuVernay was on the call as well. And Kenya Barris said, not everything has to be historical, Ava. Yep. That's all. Now for my historical references. I will reference to Master of None. Yep. Master of None because I don't really see Master of None or BlackAF as an actual TV show. I think I would classify them as thematic sketches. They have a purpose, they have a theme, and they get explored beautifully. Yeah.

51:50KT: And the second show that I will reference is Twenties. Nice. Because I love Lena Waithe. Gotta do it. Yep. And that is it for us ref AFs. Fuck. Who thought that I would be the more cringey one in this episode?

51:50Oti: Oh, I knew that. Thickering fuck that.

52:09Oti: I'll try saying it to Sylvester. Fuck off. You know where else you can fuck on? On Twitter and Instagram.

52:09KT: Oh,

52:17KT: fuck me. Are you gonna keep that in?

52:17Oti: Yeah.

52:17KT: Oh, piss dickhead. On Twitter and Instagram, we are @ForYourRefPod. You can write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com. Asshole. Or you can give us a five star rating on our podcast, and we'll see you guys next week.

52:33Oti: See you. Bye.